(06-27-2020, 12:39 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: Yeah the doctor for the NFLPA (expert) said he does not recommend players training together. Last I checked, training camp requires players train together at camp so Bong is definitely not an expert on the subject.

An "ex" is a has-been and a "spurt" is a drip under pressure ... voila ... EXPERT.

(06-27-2020, 12:39 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: Yeah the doctor for the NFLPA (expert) said he does not recommend players training together. Last I checked, training camp requires players train together at camp so Bong is definitely not an expert on the subject.

As I understand it, the recommendation was that players not practice/train together in private workouts. He said they were to establish best practices for teams and training, and only cautioned against workouts BEFORE training camp commences.

https://twitter.com/NFLPA/status/1274413716612792320?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet

(06-28-2020, 08:16 AM)BengalsBong Wrote: Doctor's was doing lobotomy just 70 years ago so no I do not think they have a better understanding then I do. 

WTF???

(06-28-2020, 12:51 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: The treatment hasn’t changed at all from five months ago. It is a viral illness and the treatment is symptomatic care.

Not true at all

So, I am one to caution that doctors and/or scientists are actually Not God, and that we (humankind) do not possess the vast amount knowledge and wisdom so many in these professions seem to think we do. What we don't know still dwarfs what we do know. Therefore, the arrogance that many of these display is off-putting to me.

One big area of disagreement I have with the medical profession is the over use of medication. Meds should not be a first resort. The lack of research in the US into useful therapies that don't happen to involve pharmaceutical is stunning: the studies pertaining to hydrogen peroxide in Europe are unheard of here, for instance.

That being said, science is a useful tool for
A) exploration of the universe, and
B) the categorization of the findings
It is not the end all and be all of our knowledge.

At the end of the day, medicine is extremely helpful in emergency situations/ trauma. When I had my appendectomy, I was quite happy to avail myself of their services!

I look forward to the day when knowledge is not edited by various entities for whatever reasons ( money, prestige, prejudice) as it seems to be.
Turns out many traditional therapies do have merit, (apple cider vinegar with honey, or Native American practices, or Oriental medicine, etc etc), yet they are largely ignored by our medical profession.

Science is

Supposed To

dispassionately assess and synthesize knowledge, but often fails to do so, for any number of all-to-human reasons.

At the end of the day, however, if my life is on the line, and the clock is ticking, I will probably go with Medicine, despite it's obvious flaws.

In the meantime, I try to do whatever I can to stay out of their cluches.

Americans are interesting people at times.

(06-28-2020, 01:21 PM)AussieBengal Wrote: Americans are interesting people at times.

So true lol 

(06-28-2020, 01:17 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Dude, I've been trying to tell you for a couple of years now, put down the bong for a minute or two..

But hey, at least he isn't a Bernie burner....

(06-28-2020, 01:21 PM)AussieBengal Wrote: Americans are interesting people at times.

You spelled stupid wrong.

I kid I kid....

(06-25-2020, 11:16 PM)Kingslayer Wrote: I think the entire year is gonna be scrubbed.

We know how politicians work. As soon as one team has an outbreak the season will be cancelled. There won't be fans allowed to anything. I hope I am wrong but I don't think baseball has a chance of getting off the ground in July.

All these damn protests and people going on vacation have spread the pandemic and here we are with an influx in infections after 3 months of stay at home orders and social distancing. Wasted.

It's not gonna happen guys

I had been optimistic a full NFL season was possible, now not so much. The idiotic, irresponsible and life taking riots and protests have spread the disease nationwide. Hardest hit will be large metro areas where the NFL thrives. It’s note worthy the NFL supported those actions spreading a disease and taking innocent lives, so the NFL’s karma could be costly.

(06-28-2020, 12:27 PM)SladeX Wrote: So, I am one to caution that doctors and/or scientists are actually Not God, and that we (humankind) do not possess the vast amount knowledge and wisdom so many in these professions seem to think we do. What we don't know still dwarfs what we do know. Therefore, the arrogance that many of these display is off-putting to me.

One big area of disagreement I have with the medical profession is the over use of medication.  Meds should not be a first resort. The lack of research in the US into useful therapies that don't happen to involve pharmaceutical is stunning: the studies pertaining to hydrogen peroxide in Europe are unheard of here, for instance.

That being said, science is a useful tool for
A) exploration of the universe, and
B) the categorization of the findings
It is not the end all and be all of our knowledge.

At the end of the day, medicine is extremely helpful in emergency situations/ trauma. When I had my appendectomy,  I was quite happy to avail myself of their services!

I look forward to the day when knowledge is not edited by various entities for whatever reasons  ( money, prestige, prejudice) as it seems to be.
Turns out many traditional therapies do have merit, (apple cider vinegar with honey, or Native American  practices, or Oriental medicine, etc etc), yet they are largely ignored by our medical profession.

Science is

Supposed To

dispassionately assess and synthesize knowledge, but often fails to do so, for any number of all-to-human reasons.

At the end of the day, however, if my life is on the line, and the clock is ticking, I will probably go with Medicine, despite it's obvious flaws.

In the meantime,  I try to do whatever I can to stay out of their cluches.

Well said.

(06-28-2020, 05:03 PM)bengals1969 Wrote: I had been optimistic a full NFL season was possible, now not so much. The idiotic, irresponsible and  life taking riots and protests have spread the disease nationwide. Hardest hit will be large metro areas where the NFL thrives. It’s note worthy the NFL supported those actions spreading a disease and taking innocent lives,  so the NFL’s karma could be costly.

We can always watch from the safety of our couches if large crowds bother you.

(06-28-2020, 01:42 AM)AussieBengal Wrote: That is not actually true,  there are a number of medications in use now that improve outcomes and shorten recovery times. Part of the reasoning for flattening the curve is to buy time. Buy time to increase resources in intensive care, buy time to improve treatment practices and procedures to prevent hospital systems being overwhelmed as New York was,

Tell me the names of the medications that improve outcomes and shorten recovery times and specify the improvements in treatment practices because I’m interested in learning them.

(06-28-2020, 12:00 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: Not true at all

Then tell how the treatment has improved.

(06-28-2020, 10:24 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Tell me the names of the medications that improve outcomes and shorten recovery times and specify the improvements in treatment practices because I’m interested in learning them.

Dexamethasone has been shown in studies in the UK to reduce the death rate by 1/3 for patients who are on ventilators, UK authorities have recommended its use for severe covid 19 cases.


Remdesivir is another drug recommended for the treatment of covid 19 and studies have shown improved outcomes for ventilated patients.



Improved testing procedures have been huge throughout this crisis,  in the US access to testing kits was a big problem early on. Turnaround times have reduced dramatically over the last couple of months. Literally as a write this I am watching a press conference about a test being implemented in Victoria Australia that can be conducted from people spitting in a cup instead of a swap and can be done at the door of their home.


Now both those drugs are in their early days of use and are not cures but early results are promising that they could improve the outcomes of the most critical patients.

(06-28-2020, 10:24 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Tell me the names of the medications that improve outcomes and shorten recovery times and specify the improvements in treatment practices because I’m interested in learning them.

Im on a daily dose of ignoritall for it. I've also hears the US medical system hands out heavy doses of bankruptusall.

(06-28-2020, 11:56 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Im on a daily dose of ignoritall for it.  I've also hears the US medical system hands out heavy doses of bankruptusall.

That does appear to be the US primary response.

(06-28-2020, 10:43 PM)AussieBengal Wrote: Dexamethasone has been shown in studies in the UK to reduce the death rate by 1/3 for patients who are on ventilators, UK authorities have recommended its use for severe covid 19 cases.

Decadron is not a new treatment. It’s a steroid that reduces inflammation from such conditions as Acute Respiratory Distress Syndrome to poison ivy to use during joint injections for arthritis. I use it a lot for bronchitis because 80% of cases are viral and steroids reduce airway inflammation to hopefully reduce symptoms and speed recovery. It is a symptomatic treatment. And steroids are one of the mainstay of treatment for many respiratory conditions such as asthma and COPD for decades. Steroids for respiratory problems are about as common as Tylenol for a fever or headache.

Quote:Remdesivir is another drug recommended for the treatment of covid 19 and studies have shown improved outcomes for ventilated patients.

That’s an investigational drug that is only for inpatient use when patient’s are on death’s door and used as a last resort when nothing else has worked. The vast majority of prescribers in the US can’t prescribe it unless you’re a hospitalist working in an ICU. Studies have shown it reduces symptoms from 15 days to 11 days.

This is from the NEJM from May . . .

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2007764

Quote: BACKGROUND
Although several therapeutic agents have been evaluated for the treatment of coronavirus disease 2019 (Covid-19), none have yet been shown to be efficacious.

And this is from the manufacturer . . .

https://www.remdesivir.com/us/dosing-administration/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIjani2_Gl6gIVyZ6zCh0oSgakEAAYASABEgJE1fD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

Quote:Improved testing procedures have been huge throughout this crisis,  in the US access to testing kits was a big problem early on.

Testing is not a treatment.

Quote:Turnaround times have reduced dramatically over the last couple of months. Literally as a write this I am watching a press conference about a test being implemented in Victoria Australia that can be conducted from people spitting in a cup instead of a swap and can be done at the door of their home.

I had a test result return today after 12 days. If we’re lucky tests return in 2 days at the earliest. The normal range is 3-5 days. The labs are so backlogged tests are being shipped to labs out of state who have less of a demand which increases turn around time.

We had anterior nasal swabs made in China to collect samples, but our supply ran out and now we’re back to using nasopharyngeal swabs that go back almost as far as your ear.

And the test you’re talking about, is it a PCR test or an antibody test? Because the antibody test should not be used to diagnose Acute Covid 19.

Quote:Now both those drugs are in their early days of use and are not cures but early results are promising that they could improve the outcomes of the most critical patients.

There’s literally nothing new that I can write a prescription for that wasn’t already available when the pandemic began. And the most promising drug reduces symptoms from 15 to 11 days, but I can’t write a prescription for it.

(06-29-2020, 01:31 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Decadron is not a new treatment. It’s a steroid that reduces inflammation from such conditions as Acute Respiratory Distress Syndrome to poison ivy to use during joint injections for arthritis.  I use it a lot for bronchitis because 80% of cases are viral and steroids reduce airway inflammation to hopefully reduce symptoms and speed recovery. It is a symptomatic treatment. And steroids are one of the mainstay of treatment for many respiratory conditions such as asthma and COPD for decades. Steroids for respiratory problems are about as common as Tylenol for a fever or headache.


That’s an investigational drug that is only for inpatient use when patient’s are on death’s door and used as a last resort when nothing else has worked. The vast majority of prescribers in the US can’t prescribe it unless you’re a hospitalist working in an ICU. Studies have shown it reduces symptoms from 15 days to 11 days.

This is from the NEJM from May . . .

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2007764


And this is from the manufacturer . . .

https://www.remdesivir.com/us/dosing-administration/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIjani2_Gl6gIVyZ6zCh0oSgakEAAYASABEgJE1fD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds


Testing is not a treatment.


I had a test result return today after 12 days. If we’re lucky tests return in 2 days at the earliest. The normal range is 3-5 days. The labs are so backlogged tests are being shipped to labs out of state who have less of a demand which increases turn around time.

We had anterior nasal swabs made in China to collect samples, but our supply ran out and now we’re back to using nasopharyngeal swabs that go back almost as far as your ear.

And the test you’re talking about, is it a PCR test or an antibody test?  Because the antibody test should not be used to diagnose Acute Covid 19.

There’s literally nothing new that I can write a prescription for that wasn’t already available when the pandemic began. And the most promising drug reduces symptoms from 15 to 11 days, but I can’t write a prescription for it.

Yes but you weren't writing a prescription for it to be used with Covid 19 in January, Feb, March or April.

The new Saliva test they are rolling out in Victoria uses the same PCR test in the lab as the current nose and throat test.

Testing is not a treatment no but I was also discussing the purpose of flattening the curve was to buy time to improve resourses and practices and improving wide scale testing is an important component of combating Covid 19. Countries that have managed to do well up to this point are the countries that implemented aggressive contact tracing to break the infection chain. The US is way past this point, but increasing the capability of testing and contact tracing was a significant advantage of flattening the curve here.

(06-29-2020, 02:18 AM)AussieBengal Wrote: Yes but you weren't writing a prescription for it to be used with Covid 19 in January, Feb, March or April.

I was prescribing it for the relief of symptom caused by airway inflammation regardless of the diagnosis whether it be acute bronchitis, COPD, asthma, ARDS, Covid 19, etc. Even if you don’t have a diagnosis, but they have airway inflammation there’s a good chance you’re going to use a steroid to treat it. That was always in the tool box. So I probably did, but wouldn’t know because we didn’t have the ability to test for Covid 19 until June.

Quote:The new Saliva test they are rolling out in Victoria uses the same PCR test in the lab as the current nose and throat test.

That sounds great. When it finally becomes available. Because we’ve had PCR testing for less than a month and are still having problems with supplies. Right now we have less than 35 tests and will run out tomorrow morning without a re-supply.

The tests are being used via an emergency use authorization so manufacturers don’t have to submit validation data so if we do get the saliva test we won’t know the sensitivity or specificity to know how accurate the test is.

Quote:Testing is not a treatment no but I was also discussing the purpose of flattening the curve was to buy time to improve resourses and practices and improving wide scale testing is an important component of combating Covid 19. Countries that have managed to do well up to this point are the countries that implemented aggressive contact tracing to break the infection chain. The US is way past this point, but increasing the capability of testing and contact tracing was a significant advantage of flattening the curve here.

And I was responding to the comment we’re more prepared for treatment. And we’re not. Hell, we’ve barely improved testing. Improvements in contact tracing lags behind improvements in testing. And our President and Vice President (who leads the pandemic response) refuse to wear a face covering against medical advice the President himself announced to the public. Our President also says we use the best tests in the world, but those anterior nasal swabs we ran out of this week are made in China.

And when it comes to actually treating the patient as in what can you do for them it’s basically the same as it was 6 months ago. I can’t prescribe anything different than I wasn’t already able to prescribe. And the treatment is mainly supportive and symptomatic.