(07-13-2020, 02:23 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: I know there is a (big) place for metrics in sports today.  They can definitely be useful In discussion and debate.  But more often than not I judge players the way I always have, with my eyeballs and a little common sense.

Do these numbers take into account any of the following:  Pressure, Time to throw, WR seperation, Where target ranks in progression, Base Defense, etc?

These numbers can't exist in a vacuum. There's a lot that goes into them when valuing a QB's actual accuray beyond whether a ball is catchable (subjective).  I can almost guarantee that QB's with below average lines throw more "uncatchable" balls than they would if they had better protection.

I'd like to see these numbers for all of Andy's previous seasons.  Has he always struggled with this? I doubt it.  Did his skills magically fall of the map at age age 31? Again, I doubt it.

So while these numbers help to paint a picture they tell me something I already knew: Andy's play dropped big time due to a lack of talent around him. He had an awful line, below average weapons in the pass game, and he was paired with a run game that was among the league's worst through his first 8 starts.

I know he stunk. The question is why he stunk. These numbers don't help in trying to figure that out.

Dalton had a protection rate of 82.9% (19th in NFL) with a 69.5% clean pocket completion percentage (29th in NFL) and 26.2% pressured completion percentage (32nd in NFL). Dalton had 33 interceptable passes (4th highest in NFL) and 40 "danger plays" (8th in NFL).
https://www.playerprofiler.com/nfl/andy-dalton/

Bottom line: Dalton didn't have the greatest protection, but he was not good whether he had protection or not. It didn't help that his receivers were not good at getting separation.

This is not surprising to some of us. Here's to hoping Dak holds out because I dislike the Cowboys.

(07-13-2020, 11:02 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: This year will really be a nice test.. if we don;t improve in accuracy this year.. i think it will be very telling that it was a bit more than the QB or sadly Burrow College performance did not transfer over to NFL in his first year...

Yeah, we will know a lot from watching this season. We should know if Taylor is a decent coach or needs to be replaced, we should
know if Burrow can translate to the NFL somewhat smoothly with hardly an Offseason, we should know if the O-line improves and the players that Taylor, Lou and company brought in develop into their type of team instead of Marvin's.

It was really hard to judge everything last season after the Seahawks game where everything just fell apart.

But make no mistake, Dalton was a big part of why the season fell apart. He had his worst season by far.

I have defended Dalton as much as anyone here, but last year was his worst by far.

It is hard to believe that all his skills disappeared in one year.  This guy is with PFF and they claim Dalton's best year ever was 2018 when he was even better than 2015.  So I don't know what all the issues were that caused this decline, but he did not look good at all.

(07-14-2020, 02:49 PM)impactplaya Wrote: Andy always needed a perfect storm of talent and game planning Round him to succeed. Good OCs here got the most
Out of him. When he got garbage OCs like Lazor and Zampese Andy didn't have enough to improvise when their
Predictable schemes got exposed

While I agree with the overall principle behind what you are saying (and the numbers help support it), I wouldn't go so far as calling it a perfect storm.  When he had good (not HOF) OCs, and the majority of his supporting cast stayed healthy, he played very well.  Andy's lack of pocket awareness (which I swore the proverbial light went on in the beginning of 2018) and mobility (good, not great, when a lot of the league leaders are Russell Wilson, Patrick Mahommes, DeShawn Watson, and Lamar Jackson for a reason) was his biggest weakness.  

A mobile QB (a very mobile QB) can hide a lot of weaknesses on an offensive line.  Let's hope Burrow does more of that here as well.  

What's ironic is that opening game vs the Hawks
Andy looked really effective. I thought ZT tailored the offense for the ball to leave AD
hands under 2.6 seconds. Andy seemed comfortable.
For whatever reason Andy and the TE couldn't get on the same page till really late in the year

None of these players are Bengals, so they don't belong in JN.

You moved a post about Gruden, because he wasn't a Bengal what is different here?

(07-16-2020, 11:49 PM)PAjwPhilly Wrote: None of these players are Bengals, so they don't belong in JN.

You moved a post about Gruden, because he wasn't a Bengal what is different here?

We’re also discussing the weaknesses of the coaching staff and the poor separation that the wrs here are known for.

(07-17-2020, 02:21 AM)Forever Spinning Vinyl Wrote: We’re also discussing the weaknesses of the coaching staff and the poor separation that the wrs here are known for.

(I believe Andy, Whit, Green... etc. will always be Bengals news and belong in JN. Even Marvin Lewis and Mike Brown after he passes.)

I saw the stats on WR separation... How much was a new system? They are supposed to be pros... only so many routes. I really like our WRs but those numbers may be why they drafted a WR early. Maybe our coaches are onto a problem early...

But we drafted Higgins. Who is know for talent only limited by his poor separation (i.e. his biggest flaw).

Maybe our 2nd round pick comes from a monkey with darts*.

But like Wes said above, how much is Andy's fault? I see him in a perfect situation in Dallas. They have a good team in Dallas, and I am cursed with watching Wentz throw 50% of every ball to Ertz. He doesn't even look elsewhere on most throws, and he has the worst accuracy, I swear. They won in the playoffs with Foles, lol. And besides that they have the Giants and the train wreck formerly known as the Redskins... Can Andy win if Dak becomes an issue?

I don't think Jameis has the ability to do an NFL scheme. I think NFL coaches need to scheme to Winston like the Ravens schemed to their RB Lamar Jackson**. Jameis puts up the numbers but he just tries to max every stat. He could probably be lethal if people catered to him like Lamar.

*I defended the Sample pick.... and they never used him.
** I predicted hard he would fail. And he actually became a legit passer.

(07-14-2020, 02:49 PM)impactplaya Wrote: Andy always needed a perfect storm of talent and game planning Round him to succeed. 

You can't really make this argument in a thread where you are citing PFF numbers.

According to PFF Dalton's best season ws 2018.  Are you really going to argue that in 2018 Dalton was surrounded by elite players and coaches?

(07-17-2020, 09:13 AM)fredtoast Wrote: You can't really make this argument in a thread where you are citing PFF numbers.

According to PFF Dalton's best season ws 2018.  Are you really going to argue that in 2018 Dalton was surrounded by elite players and coaches?

I could have sworn you’ve claimed they had 2016 as his best season...

(07-17-2020, 09:13 AM)fredtoast Wrote: You can't really make this argument in a thread where you are citing PFF numbers.

According to PFF Dalton's best season ws 2018.  Are you really going to argue that in 2018 Dalton was surrounded by elite players and coaches?

In 2018 in the 1st 5 games the offense averaged 31 points a game. But Andy had a healthy set of skill position 
players at his disposal. The oline was average but good enough to let Andy set his feet read coverage and find 
The open guy. 
Then In the Falcons game AD lost 2 pivotal pieces of that 4 1 start. Ross and Eifert. 2 guys that could 
Really exploit the middle of the field and seams. Uzomah didn't bring what Eifert could and nobody at WR 
had the speed dimension Ross brought 
Andy in those 1st 5 games played aa well as he ever did. Then after Losing AJ game 9 he had 
Very little  talent around him to compensate for his shortcomings. 
AJ's Injury you can connect to ADs regression as a QB.

(07-17-2020, 11:34 AM)impactplaya Wrote: In 2018 in the 1st 5 games the offense averaged 31 points a game. But Andy had a healthy set of skill position 
players at his disposal. The oline was average but good enough to let Andy set his feet read coverage and find 
The open guy. 
Then In the Falcons game AD lost 2 pivotal pieces of that 4 1 start. Ross and Eifert. 2 guys that could 
Really exploit the middle of the field and seams. Uzomah didn't bring what Eifert could and nobody at WR 
had the speed dimension Ross brought 
Andy in those 1st 5 games played aa well as he ever did. Then after Losing AJ game 9 he had 
Very little  talent around him to compensate for his shortcomings. 
AJ's Injury you can connect to ADs regression as a QB.

Not sure what all this jumble means, but just to be clear, for future reference you believe that Dalton was surrounded by the "perfect storm" of elite talent and coaching in 2018.  

Can I quote you on that?

(07-17-2020, 11:31 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: I could have sworn you’ve claimed they had 2016 as his best season...

Nope.  PFF rating for 2018 was 81.9, the highest on his career.


Live by the PFF.  Die by the PFF.

(07-17-2020, 12:49 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Not sure what all this jumble means, but just to be clear, for future reference you believe that Dalton was surrounded by the "perfect storm" of elite talent and coaching in 2018.  

Can I quote you on that?

I thought I was pretty clear on my jumble as you call it. That 4-1, start the Bengals beat 2 playoff teams 
In that span and we're actually the talk of the NFL after 5 games.
You can quote anything you want it makes zero difference to me 

Well, the Cowboys didn't reach a deal with Prescott, so he'll be playing under the tag @ 31 mil this year.

Honestly, if I'm the Cowboys I'd be looking real hard at trying to find a trade partner right now. I don't if that's feasible with everything that surrounds the league and with cap space this late in the offseason. But IMHO, if it could be done, it would be the smart move.

Take those cap savings and roll them over to next year (Rollover was reinstated with the new CBA). I honestly think they'd minimal drop-off with Dalton this season. Let someone else overpay this guy, cuz there is absolutely no way in hell he's worth near 40 mil a season on a long-term deal loaded with guarantees.

Look at what this guy has had to work with compared to Andy. Probably the best OL in all of football over his 4 year career, an elite running back, and well above average receivers. Then you couple his weapons with the fact he plays for a 1st class organization that spares no expense at any level. Then throw in the fact that both the Giants and Redskins have been abysmal during his career.

If I were giving out Madden grades I'd give Andy like a 78 and Dak like an 83. As much as some on here love to rip on Andy I'm telling you that the guy he's backing up aint that much better.

(07-17-2020, 01:16 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Well, the Cowboys didn't reach a deal with Prescott, so he'll be playing under the tag @ 31 mil this year.

Honestly, if I'm the Cowboys I'd be looking real hard at trying to find a trade partner right now.  I don't if that's feasible with everything that surrounds the league and with cap space this late in the offseason.  But IMHO, if it could be done, it would be the smart move.

Take those cap savings and roll them over to next year (Rollover was reinstated with the new CBA). I honestly think they'd minimal drop-off with Dalton this season.  Let someone else overpay this guy, cuz there is absolutely no way in hell he's worth near 40 mil a season on a long-term deal loaded with guarantees.

Look at what this guy has had to work with compared to Andy.  Probably the best OL in all of football over his 4 year career, an elite running back, and well above average receivers.  Then you couple his weapons with the fact he plays for a 1st class organization that spares no expense at any level.  Then throw in the fact that both the Giants and Redskins have been abysmal during his career.

If I were giving out Madden grades I'd give Andy like a 78 and Dak like an 83.  As much as some on here love to rip on Andy I'm telling you that the guy he's backing up aint that much better.

Cowboys hsve alot of nice Pieces on offense.. Gallup Lamb Cooper Elliot. I think Daltons team 1st god 1st demeanor could balance the lockeroom out . Prescott seems like a,me 1st guy more intrested in his stats 
Than winning. Plus Dalton starting would be one less ego in the lockeroom 

I honestly think the main reason the Cowboys signed Dalton is because he is a "home town boy".

He was born and raised in Texas and played college ball in Fort Worth which is practically attached to Dallas.

Dallas fans have generally embraced Dak, but they began o turn a bit last year when he choked in all their big games against playoff teams. If the team feels they have to make a move Dalton would be one of the few QBs that the fans would immediately support.

There is nothings Texans love more than other Texans.

(07-17-2020, 01:16 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Well, the Cowboys didn't reach a deal with Prescott, so he'll be playing under the tag @ 31 mil this year.

Honestly, if I'm the Cowboys I'd be looking real hard at trying to find a trade partner right now.  I don't if that's feasible with everything that surrounds the league and with cap space this late in the offseason.  But IMHO, if it could be done, it would be the smart move.

Take those cap savings and roll them over to next year (Rollover was reinstated with the new CBA). I honestly think they'd minimal drop-off with Dalton this season.  Let someone else overpay this guy, cuz there is absolutely no way in hell he's worth near 40 mil a season on a long-term deal loaded with guarantees.

Look at what this guy has had to work with compared to Andy.  Probably the best OL in all of football over his 4 year career, an elite running back, and well above average receivers.  Then you couple his weapons with the fact he plays for a 1st class organization that spares no expense at any level.  Then throw in the fact that both the Giants and Redskins have been abysmal during his career.

If I were giving out Madden grades I'd give Andy like a 78 and Dak like an 83.  As much as some on here love to rip on Andy I'm telling you that the guy he's backing up aint that much better.

I agree with all of this, but Skip Bayless sure don't lol

(07-13-2020, 02:13 PM)impactplaya Wrote: That sounds like to me it comes back to the OC and WR position coach in regards to getting seperation.
If WRs/TEs run the same predcatble routes out of the same formation  and down and distance then DBS
Have a 50/50 % or better reading the route staying on the hip or possibly jumping the route in anticipation 

I noticed last year the targets would run the same 3,4 routes over and over. DBs are smart in this league.
They look at game film and look at tendacies. 
How,many times did Andy get bailed out on the throw with no zip to the outside hash and the DB read the rout
Or Andys eyes and get his hands on it and drop it. ?

BC. BICKNELL AND ZT BETTER DO A BETTER JOB OF SCHEMING UP THE PASSING GAME ON SUNDAY 

They also better work on those jailbreak plays where Burrow will have move out of pocket and
Look for WRs breaking off their route and creating seperation downfield that Big Ben does so well.

2 WR's in the top 50 is impressive, especially since our #1 WR didn't play all year.

Any position group is going to struggle when you're forced to play a bunch of 7th round picks and UDFA's.  Our #1 missed the whole year, our #3 missed half the year, and we had a bunch of scrubs behind them.  Trying to make chicken salad out of chicken shxt isn't a recipe for success.  Would any of us blame an OL coach who was forced to play a bunch of 7th rounders and UDFA's for poor performances and tell them they need to scheme better?  No.  You have to have talent out there.