(08-18-2020, 11:47 AM)Nately120 Wrote: I hear ya, a rookie screaming and throwing a fit set off "Ryan Leaf" alarms in my mind, too.  I understand why people are into this mindset though, we are disappointed with the Dalton era so now we need to find something to declare as "the problem" that will be solved by the new guy.  Dalton was nice...maybe being nice was the problem...well, Burrow won't be nice then and that'll fix things!

Going into 2019 we were citing this team's calm and quiet confidence as a reason we could succeed while the loud and braggadocios Browns would fall apart like the paper champs they were.  Well 2019 was a bust, so now we are hopeful that our own form of swagger will be just what it takes to get stuff done.  Here is hoping.




I'll admit I'm intrigued to see how Burrow reacts the first time Ross does something boneheaded, but I'm not so sure we're just going to see as many death states as we hope.  Rather, Burrow is more likely to react in a reasonable manner and we will declare that to be a sign of his maturity and control over his emotions.  Plus, we might not have enough WR depth for Burrow to get into a blood feud with too many of them.

I'm far more interested in how Burrow reacts the first time "he" does something wrong or boneheaded. That's how he'll either gain respect or not. If he comes back after a mistake and throws a TD pass or just stands in there after a big hit and completes a 3rd and 8, well, that's how he'll gain respect and become a leader.

(08-18-2020, 12:08 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: All long established veterans.  Whatever things you speak of, I doubt they were doing them year 1 in the league. 

A rookie QB, just like every other rookie, needs to earn his respect.  That's his job right now.  Lead my example.  Inspire confidence through action.  Then, and only then, can really start to hold the veterans accountable and take them to task, so to speak.

I'm sorry, the idea that Joe Burrow can step in and immediately take over a lockerroom better than a veteran Andy Dalton is absolutely absurd.  I like Joe Burrow and am as pumped to see him as the next guy.  But some of these takes on here get to be a bit much.

I don't remember Rivers rookie year, but I know the other two were not expected to start in their rookie years.

(08-18-2020, 12:08 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: All long established veterans.  Whatever things you speak of, I doubt they were doing them year 1 in the league. 

A rookie QB, just like every other rookie, needs to earn his respect.  That's his job right now.  Lead my example.  Inspire confidence through action.  Then, and only then, can really start to hold the veterans accountable and take them to task, so to speak.

I'm sorry, the idea that Joe Burrow can step in and immediately take over a lockerroom better than a veteran Andy Dalton is absolutely absurd.  I like Joe Burrow and am as pumped to see him as the next guy.  But some of these takes on here get to be a bit much.

That is a great trivia question.  "Were Tom Brady, Phillip Rivers and Aaron Rodgers all 'take charge' guys from the get go, or did they work their way into those personas?"

3X rep points for the one who can do the research and find the articles/videos to prove or disprove each.  

(08-18-2020, 11:42 AM)treee Wrote: I think you're being too narrow in your definition of "Holding others accountable". Its more about a culture of respect and honesty. If someone respects you they will listen to what you have to say. The subtext of a lot of this talk is that Burrow has already earned his teammates respect better than your average rookie. It is a leadership quality. He holds himself to a high standard and with that he can justifiably hold others to a high standard too. 

Its not all about scolding someone else when they mess up. That is an oversimplified description.

The quote that started this discussion was "He trusts his receivers to be there, and if they're not they're going to get a talking to."

I guess you can choose you own way to define this, but I would say it reads similarly to the following: "They're going to get chewed out", "Burrow will show his displeasure", "Burrow won't put up with this", etc.

Remember, this all stems from the idea that Burrow offers something Andy Dalton did not.  If you think the initial statement made simply meant "Burrow will calmly talk with the receiver to get on the same page" then I have to ask who believes Andy Dalton did not do this?

I just don't see how Joe Burrow comes in as a rookie and immediately takes over a locker room in a more commanding way than a 9 year vet.  It always seemed to me that Andy and his teammates and a pretty good relationship.

If it's because Andy wasn't fiery enough, and wasn't getting on guys, then I'm right back to my usual stance.  I wouldn't expect to see that from Burrow as a rookie.  He's going to have to lead my example.  The time for taking people to task will have to wait a little while.

This whole idea that a QB can make a player better by "holding him accoubtable" just doesn't make sense to me.

Imagin that everything you did on your job was seen by millions of people on TV including everyone you ever knew. Also imagin that every on of your competitors were there talking trash and making fun of you. Then imagin that everyone behind you in your own company were trying as hard as they could to take your job. You think you are going to not care how you do and half-ass it until some new kid they just hired starts lecturing you? If players aren't motivated by everyone else watching and judging them then the new QB is not going to make any difference.

(08-18-2020, 12:26 PM)fredtoast Wrote: This whole idea that a QB can make a player better by "holding him accoubtable" just doesn't make sense to me.

Imagin that everything you did on your job was seen by millions of people on TV including everyone you ever knew. Also imagin that every on of your competitors were there talking trash and making fun of you. Then imagin that everyone behind you in your own company were trying as hard as they could to take your job. You think you are going to not care how you do and half-ass it until some new kid they just hired starts lecturing you?  If players aren't motivated by everyone else watching and judging them then the new QB is not going to make any difference.

It's not the tongue lashing, it's the fact that QB will quit throwing the ball to you and go to other targets.

(08-18-2020, 12:08 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: All long established veterans.  Whatever things you speak of, I doubt they were doing them year 1 in the league. 

A rookie QB, just like every other rookie, needs to earn his respect.  That's his job right now.  Lead my example.  Inspire confidence through action.  Then, and only then, can really start to hold the veterans accountable and take them to task, so to speak.

I'm sorry, the idea that Joe Burrow can step in and immediately take over a lockerroom better than a veteran Andy Dalton is absolutely absurd.  I like Joe Burrow and am as pumped to see him as the next guy.  But some of these takes on here get to be a bit much.

Phillip River's outbursts as a young unproven player are well documented. Shawn Merriman told a story bout how Rivers 1st or 2nd year they got into it and were taunting each other during practice. He has always been that guy.

Manning has also always been known as that guy, he demanded guys do things right always, even as a rookie. Here is a Manning story from his rookie year:

Pollard played with Indianapolis from 1995 to 2004. He is the Jacksonville Jaguars director of player development and youth football.

Pollard remembered a conversation he heard Manning having with a veteran player during Manning's rookie season in 1998.

Veteran player: "That's not what I'm supposed to do [on a certain play]."

Manning: "Yes, it is."

Veteran player: "It's not what my coach says I'm supposed to do."

Manning: "If I tell you it's Easter, you better hide eggs."

Pollard: "I died laughing. I said, 'Golly, this young boy's got it.' "

It's not absurd at all, some people are introverts and some people are extraverts. A guy who is more demonstrative, who can wear their heart on their sleeve may resonate with others who see that as "real" leadership. You can earn it, but you can take it too. Again, there is a difference in a confidence that can be backed up by your own work (which by all accounts he is taking care of) and confidence just for the sake of it.

(08-18-2020, 12:29 PM)Sled21 Wrote: It's not the tongue lashing, it's the fact that QB will quit throwing the ball to you and go to other targets.

Could you imagine if we actually had a HC and a QB duo that actually kept an underperforming WR like....oh let's say John Ross, from getting time and/or targets?  Wowza.

(08-18-2020, 12:35 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Could you imagine if we actually had a HC and a QB duo that actually kept an underperforming WR like....oh let's say John Ross, from getting time and/or targets?  Wowza.

Honestly, when he has played he hasn't really underperformed all that bad. The issue is, and has always really been, he can't stay on the field. If you have him you want to use him because he isn't as bad as we make him out to be.

(08-18-2020, 12:44 PM)Au165 Wrote: Honestly, when he has played he hasn't really underperformed all that bad. The issue is, and has always really been, he can't stay on the field. If you have him you want to use him because he isn't as bad as we make him out to be.

I didn't mean this as much about Ross and more about the concept of holding someone accountable is only as popular a move as the person doing the holding, is.

Marvin and Dalton killed Ross' confidence, but for some reason if ZT and Burrow chew him out we are going to all be over the moon about it.  Meh, it's fandom, I get it.

(08-18-2020, 12:46 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Marvin and Dalton killed Ross' confidence, but for some reason if ZT and Burrow chew him out we are going to all be over the moon about it.  Meh, it's fandom, I get it.

I think being a good leader is knowing how each person responds to criticism and playing to it. Some people need chewing out, some need to be built up, and others need to be left alone. There isn't a manual for it, it's just something you kind of pick up on and learn to get the best out of your players. There are coaches who are great motivators who get the best out of guys and there are those who don't, coaching isn't all X's and O's.

(08-18-2020, 12:52 PM)Au165 Wrote: I think being a good leader is knowing how each person responds to criticism and playing to it. Some people need chewing out, some need to be built up, and others need to be left alone. There isn't a manual for it, it's just something you kind of pick up on and learn to get the best out of your players. There are coaches who are great motivators who get the best out of guys and there are those who don't, coaching isn't all X's and O's.

I don't disagree with that.

(08-15-2020, 04:34 PM)GreenCornBengal Wrote: No doubt, Burrow has shown to have this skill at a great level. However, I’ve still seen Andy throw guys open, especially Eifert, over the years.

(08-18-2020, 12:52 PM)Au165 Wrote: I think being a good leader is knowing how each person responds to criticism and playing to it. Some people need chewing out, some need to be built up, and others need to be left alone. There isn't a manual for it, it's just something you kind of pick up on and learn to get the best out of your players. There are coaches who are great motivators who get the best out of guys and there are those who don't, coaching isn't all X's and O's.

Yep

There are "natural born leaders" who don't have to have 5 years in the league to be one. In fact it's goes way more to the side that either you are one from the beginning, or you're not.

(08-18-2020, 12:46 PM)Nately120 Wrote: I didn't mean this as much about Ross and more about the concept of holding someone accountable is only as popular a move as the person doing the holding, is.

Marvin and Dalton killed Ross' confidence, but for some reason if ZT and Burrow chew him out we are going to all be over the moon about it.  Meh, it's fandom, I get it.

Quite a big difference between chewing on some guys rear end because he messed up a play, and benching him over it. 

(08-18-2020, 09:29 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Yeah, I am sure Green will love getting his ass chewed by some rookie QB who thinks he knows more than veteran NFL players.

I love Joe, but this claim that he is just going to walk in and take over the team from the coaches because none of the coaches ever mention to a player when they mess up is ridiculous.  Joe looks like a damn good QB but the Bengal vets are not just a bunch of kids who failed because their QB never yelled at them.

Ask Baker Mayfiled how many games "swagger" will win you in the NFL.  Ask Ryan Leaf how much it helps a team to squeal at the receivers.  Joe Burrow will be a great NFL QB if he plays great and can keep cool in high pressure situations.  Bitching at his teammates won't help him any.  That is the coaches job.

Burrow won't have to hold AJ accountable cause he doesn't screw up.

You don't understand what I am saying, no surprise...

These guys do...

(08-18-2020, 11:19 AM)Au165 Wrote: Ask Tom Brady? Ask Phillip Rivers? Ask Aaron Rodgers? Holding teammates accountable is often noted when talking about these guys and the culture it helps create. You can argue that because they are good they get to do these things, but there are stories of these guys doing these things long before they were the elite players they are today. This isn't to say it's a magic bullet that makes you good, and it's not saying you can't be successful without doing it, but it is something that comes up often with some of the best. There is a certain amount of command you have to have to play QB and the key is riding the line of being demanding and holding other accountable, but also not being an ass. In Mayfield's case, and Leaf as well honestly, they wouldn't hold themselves accountable which NFL players see straight through.

(08-18-2020, 11:28 AM)Sled21 Wrote: I think it will be a pleasant change to go from Andy (who I really liked) and his "awe geeze shucks, you ran the wrong route" nice guy, to the Joe Burrow Death Stare. I don't really expect AJ to be on the end of one, because he rarely if ever runs the wrong route.

(08-18-2020, 11:42 AM)treee Wrote: I think you're being too narrow in your definition of "Holding others accountable". Its more about a culture of respect and honesty. If someone respects you they will listen to what you have to say. The subtext of a lot of this talk is that Burrow has already earned his teammates respect better than your average rookie. It is a leadership quality. He holds himself to a high standard and with that he can justifiably hold others to a high standard too. 

Its not all about scolding someone else when they mess up. That is an oversimplified description.

(08-18-2020, 01:19 PM)Sled21 Wrote: Quite a big difference between chewing on some guys rear end because he messed up a play, and benching him over it. 

If you aren't going to back it up, what good is chewing someone out?  That's just hot air if you aren't willing to actually put his ass on the bench and/or stop targeting him.

(08-18-2020, 12:29 PM)Sled21 Wrote: It's not the tongue lashing, it's the fact that QB will quit throwing the ball to you and go to other targets.

A good QB goes through his progression and throws to the first open receiver. He screws over the whole team if he just throws to his "favorites".

(08-18-2020, 01:45 PM)Nately120 Wrote: If you aren't going to back it up, what good is chewing someone out?  That's just hot air if you aren't willing to actually put his ass on the bench and/or stop targeting him.

You have to have a better player to replace him otherwise you are just hurting the team.

Every player makes mistakes, but you can't bench them if their back up is worse. Coaching is much more complicated than just "demanding" that a player improve and benching him if he doesn't.  If it was that simple then I could do it.

(08-18-2020, 12:26 PM)fredtoast Wrote: This whole idea that a QB can make a player better by "holding him accoubtable" just doesn't make sense to me.

Imagin that everything you did on your job was seen by millions of people on TV including everyone you ever knew. Also imagin that every on of your competitors were there talking trash and making fun of you. Then imagin that everyone behind you in your own company were trying as hard as they could to take your job. You think you are going to not care how you do and half-ass it until some new kid they just hired starts lecturing you?  If players aren't motivated by everyone else watching and judging them then the new QB is not going to make any difference.

It may not make sense to you but a QB's demeanor can have an impact on how his team mates perform. I remember Lomas Brown stating how he didn't block real hard for Former Bengal great Scott Mitchell. I'm quite certain he's not the only player to ever adjust their play based off QB.

(08-18-2020, 02:52 PM)fredtoast Wrote: You have to have a better player to replace him otherwise you are just hurting the team.

Every player makes mistakes, but you can't bench them if their back up is worse. Coaching is much more complicated than just "demanding" that a player improve and benching him if he doesn't.  If it was that simple then I could do it.

Some players benefit from being benched, whether it is so they can watch and learn, or so they get the point they are not locked into a starting role. Then again, some don't and can't handle it.