Seems I have been reading a lot of low expectations and was wondering how we feel about duplicating 2011 since it sure seems like this team is very reminiscent to 2011 rebuild... which went 9-7 in a very tough division after a terrible 2010 season, led by rookie sensation Green and a fresh of air and quality QB in Dalton as a rookie... On paper this team is better coming in overall than 2011 on both sides of the ball. The division at the top was better in 2011 with both Baltimore and Steelers at their peak.. Cleveland was down in 2011 and still unproven in 2020.

I feel if Burrow plays to the level of a fantasy rookie QB , Green stays healthy and defense stays healthy I feel we do have a shot in making a run to the playoffs like the 2011 team... If we stay healthy the only two places I feel that will hold us back if Burrow does not produce or our unproven coaching staff does not come through.


Thoughts?

I'm not sure we're better on paper on defense, and we're certainly not better on the sidelines as far as coordinators and position coaches go. They're not gonna see live action til Sunday either... That hurts.

I still say that .500 is a reasonable goal though... So maybe.

(09-09-2020, 03:47 PM)jason Wrote: I'm not sure we're better on paper on defense, and we're certainly not better on the sidelines as far as coordinators and position coaches go. They're not gonna see live action til Sunday either... That hurts.

I still say that .500 is a reasonable goal though... So maybe.

Outside of secondary.. don;t see 2011 better..

Dline:  Dunlap, Atkins, Reeder, Hubbard , Lawson way better than Geathers, Peko, Atkins, Rucker, Dunlap.. to me this is a clear advantage

LBs:  Youth with a savy Veteran this year i give an edge over 2011

DBs:  Edge to 2011

All teams are equal on live action.. mute point to me

2020
OC: Taylor/Callahan
DC: Anarumo

2011
OC: J Gruden
DC: Zimmer


The latter is WAY better, and as we are seeing with the 2020 Reds, it doesn't matter if you upgrade your roster if your coaches/managers are crap at their jobs.

Honestly the Bengals roster is okay enough to be okay, but the coaching is my #1 worry. Doesn't matter how good your players are if your OC is calling delayed QB runs out of the shotgun on 4th and Inches, and your DC is dropping your best pass rusher into coverage while the 2nd and 3rd best are on the bench in a rotation with inferior players.

(09-09-2020, 03:55 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: Outside of secondary.. don;t see 2011 better..

Dline:  Dunlap, Atkins, Reeder, Hubbard , Lawson way better than Geathers, Peko, Atkins, Rucker, Dunlap.. to me this is a clear advantage

LBs:  Youth with a savy Veteran this year i give an edge over 2011

DBs:  Edge to 2011

All teams are equal on live action.. mute point to me

I guess I was taking Dunlap, Geno, and Michael Johnson's youth and tenacity into account. Rucker and Fanene were really good that year too.

(09-09-2020, 04:23 PM)jason Wrote: I guess I was taking Dunlap, Geno, and Michael Johnson's youth and tenacity into account. Rucker and Fanene were really good that year too.

point taken.. 

(09-09-2020, 04:06 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: 2020
OC: Taylor/Callahan
DC: Anarumo

2011
OC: J Gruden
DC: Zimmer


The latter is WAY better, and as we are seeing with the 2020 Reds, it doesn't matter if you upgrade your roster if your coaches/managers are crap at their jobs.

Honestly the Bengals roster is okay enough to be okay, but the coaching is my #1 worry. Doesn't matter how good your players are if your OC is calling delayed QB runs out of the shotgun on 4th and Inches, and your DC is dropping your best pass rusher into coverage while the 2nd and 3rd best are on the bench in a rotation with inferior players.

I will give you Zimmer.. he had a track record.. in 2011 Gruden was unproven.. he did a good job but we had no clue back then if he would.. so it is a wash to me with OC

(09-09-2020, 04:28 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: point taken.. 

Hell I'd forgotten that Geathers still started over Carlos back then.

2011 Bengals were coming off a season where their offense ranked 20th and the defense ranked in the top half of the league (15th). They had a head coach with 8 years experience and a winning career record. They made the playoffs but only had one win against a team with a winning record.

2020 Bengals are coming off a season where their offense ranked 26th and their defense 29th. Their head coach has one year of experience and a .125 career winning percentage.

It will be much tougher to repeat what we did in 2011 because the 2019 team was much worse than the 2010 team. But there are some striking similarities. Both seasons our first two picks in the draft were a WR and QB, and we signed 3 new starters for our defense in free agency.

(09-09-2020, 04:06 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote:  Doesn't matter how good your players are if your OC is calling delayed QB runs out of the shotgun on 4th and Inches, and your DC is dropping your best pass rusher into coverage while the 2nd and 3rd best are on the bench in a rotation with inferior players.

Dalton ran the ball 6 times on 3rd or 4th down with one yard or less to go and converted for a first down or TD 5 times.  I seriously doubt that failing to convert one time all season (against the Cardinals) is the reason we were 2-14.  In those same exact situations Mixon got stuffed for 0 yards or a loss 4 times.

I am not saying that I have a lot of faith in our offensive coaching, but it is silly the way some fans obsess over one play in an entire season.

(09-09-2020, 04:06 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: your DC is dropping your best pass rusher into coverage while the 2nd and 3rd best are on the bench in a rotation with inferior players.

DickLeBeau and the Steelers won Super Bowls using the zone blitz scheme which often involved dropping one of their best pass rushing D-linemen into coverage.

Again, not saying I 100% trust our defensive coaches, but it is not because they use a zone blitz at times.  This reminds me of when Bengal fans used to mock the shovel pass even though9t was often very effective and widely used by other teams across the league. 

(09-09-2020, 04:31 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: I will give you Zimmer.. he had a track record.. in 2011 Gruden was unproven.. he did a good job but we had no clue back then if he would.. so it is a wash to me with OC

Gruden had at least some success at other levels being in charge of an offense.

Whatever you think of the UFL, Gruden was an OC there and his team went 6-0 and was by far the best scoring offense in the UFL.

Zac Taylor was the interim OC for the Dolphins after Bill Lazor got fired and the offense in that 5 game span actually got *WORSE*.
Zac Taylor was then the OC for the Cincinnati Bearcats in college and they had the 123rd out of 128 offenses. (Seriously)
Zac Taylor then got hired to be the HC/OC for the Bengals after Bill Lazor got fired and the offense was 26th overall/30th scoring.

So 100% I would take 2011 Gruden who hadn't proven anything at the NFL level, but had some success at lower levels under his belt rather than 2020 Zac Taylor who's proven 3 different times at both the NFL and College level that he can't be the head of a successful offense. He also only became the QB coach for the Rams AFTER Goff had already posted a season with a QB Rating >100. So we can't even say he is the reason for Goff.

MAYBE a wash if we were comparing 2019 Taylor vs 2011 Gruden, but we saw 2019 Taylor, and now 2020 Taylor has lost a whole lot of shine.

I would say yes they can and probably will do better than 2011.
From a roster stand point
1.) Burrow > Dalton
2.) Green, Boyd, Ross, Higgens, Tate > Green, Caldwell, Simpson, Gresham
3.) Atkins, Dunlap, Hubbard, Lawson, Reader, Daniels= Atkins, Dunlap, Geathers, Johnson, Fanane, Rucker
4.) Jackson, Alexander, Phillips, Bell, Bates> Hall, Clements, Jennings, Crocker, Nelson
5.) Mixon, Bernard > Benson(rip), Scott
The only two positions were 2011 were better are LB and Online but neither of those groups were overly impressive.

From a coaching staff I would give 11 the advantage but I don't think this staff is bad at all. In fact they impressed me at the end of last season. The Defense and running game improved over the last 7 games.

(09-09-2020, 04:57 PM)fredtoast Wrote: 2011 Bengals were coming off a season where their offense ranked 20th and the defense ranked in the top half of the league (15th).  They had a head coach with 8 years experience and a winning career record. They made the playoffs but only had one win against a team with a winning record.

2020 Bengals are coming off a season where their offense ranked 26th and their defense 29th.  Their head coach has one year of experience and  a .125 career winning percentage.

It will be much tougher to repeat what we did in 2011 because the 2019 team was much worse than the 2010 team.  But there are some striking similarities.  Both seasons our first two picks in the draft were a WR and QB, and we signed 3 new starters for our defense in free agency.

the ranking I have from Pro Football Reference has Defense in mid 20s.. that 2010 team gave up 25 points a game.. which was 24th worst.. and last we were 26th in points allowed so neither was good ..

(09-09-2020, 05:11 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Gruden had at least some success at other levels being in charge of an offense.

Whatever you think of the UFL, Gruden was an OC there and his team went 6-0 and was by far the best scoring offense in the UFL.

Zac Taylor was the interim OC for the Dolphins after Bill Lazor got fired and the offense in that 5 game span actually got *WORSE*.
Zac Taylor was then the OC for the Cincinnati Bearcats in college and they had the 123rd out of 128 offenses. (Seriously)
Zac Taylor then got hired to be the HC/OC for the Bengals after Bill Lazor got fired and the offense was 26th overall/30th scoring.

So 100% I would take 2011 Gruden who hadn't proven anything at the NFL level, but had some success at lower levels under his belt rather than 2020 Zac Taylor who's proven 3 different times at both the NFL and College level that he can't be the head of a successful offense. He also only became the QB coach for the Rams AFTER Goff had already posted a season with a QB Rating >100. So we can't even say he is the reason for Goff.

MAYBE a wash if we were comparing 2019 Taylor vs 2011 Gruden, but we saw 2019 Taylor, and now 2020 Taylor has lost a whole lot of shine.

Again neither Gruden had never called OC in NFL.. so we really did not know what we were getting coming in.. Taylor has a year under his belt and second year of system so to me no big difference between them coming into Gruden first season or Taylors second and Taylor has a better offense to work with than Gruden did in 2011.. I agree Zimmer had a clear advantage on Defense but man we never saw a off season like this one with FA on Defense.. and the heavy draft of LBs.. feel much better about our defense and this might be the best Dline we have had in a while

(09-09-2020, 05:25 PM)J24 Wrote: I would say yes they can and probably will do better than 2011.
From a roster stand point
1.) Burrow > Dalton
2.) Green, Boyd, Ross, Higgens, Tate > Green, Caldwell, Simpson, Gresham
3.) Atkins, Dunlap, Hubbard, Lawson, Reader, Daniels= Atkins, Dunlap, Geathers, Johnson,  Fanane, Rucker
4.) Jackson, Alexander, Phillips, Bell, Bates> Hall, Clements, Jennings, Crocker, Nelson
5.) Mixon, Bernard > Benson(rip), Scott
The only two positions were 2011 were better are LB and Online but neither of those groups were overly impressive.

From a coaching staff I would give 11 the advantage but I don't think this staff is bad at all. In fact they impressed me at the end of last season. The Defense and running game improved over the last 7 games.

I would have to disagree on #4. Hall was a better corner than anyone on this roster currently and Clements played better here than some might remember. Nelson was also a better safety than anyone on the roster currently. That defense finished 7th in yards and 9th in points against and it wasn't all due to Zimmer. 

This years defense does have some talent but also a very, very serious question mark at DC. I am not a believer in Anarumo yet, but I hope he makes me one. 

(09-09-2020, 05:11 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Gruden had at least some success at other levels being in charge of an offense.

Whatever you think of the UFL, Gruden was an OC there and his team went 6-0 and was by far the best scoring offense in the UFL.

Zac Taylor was the interim OC for the Dolphins after Bill Lazor got fired and the offense in that 5 game span actually got *WORSE*.
Zac Taylor was then the OC for the Cincinnati Bearcats in college and they had the 123rd out of 128 offenses. (Seriously)
Zac Taylor then got hired to be the HC/OC for the Bengals after Bill Lazor got fired and the offense was 26th overall/30th scoring.

So 100% I would take 2011 Gruden who hadn't proven anything at the NFL level, but had some success at lower levels under his belt rather than 2020 Zac Taylor who's proven 3 different times at both the NFL and College level that he can't be the head of a successful offense. He also only became the QB coach for the Rams AFTER Goff had already posted a season with a QB Rating >100. So we can't even say he is the reason for Goff.

MAYBE a wash if we were comparing 2019 Taylor vs 2011 Gruden, but we saw 2019 Taylor, and now 2020 Taylor has lost a whole lot of shine.

I've been on the same wavelength as soon as it was clear we were replacing Dalton with an instant-star QB.  I have faith in Burrow, but if things look unreasonably sluggish I hope we pull the plug on the guy and use the magic of Burrow to lure a better HC here.

I realize this is an unprecedented situation where a rookie QB hasn't even had a pre-season snap and he's starting, but if our offense looks relatively bad then ZT's is unimpressive resume isn't going to help his case.


So yes, in both 2011 and 2020 we are coming off disappointing years where we could have canned the HC but instead we are moving on with a new QB.

(09-09-2020, 05:42 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: I would have to disagree on #4. Hall was a better corner than anyone on this roster currently and Clements played better here than some might remember. Nelson was also a better safety than anyone on the roster currently. That defense finished 7th in yards and 9th in points against and it wasn't all due to Zimmer. 

This years defense does have some talent but also a very, very serious question mark at DC. I am not a believer in Anarumo yet, but I hope he makes me one. 

I agree DBS were better coming in 2011 if we had not lost Waynes could argue not a great difference but he is gone now.. I do think as a whole coming in the year.. this DLINE on paper is clearly better than 2011.. now players from 2011 did outperform expectations but we can;t assume that either way...

Both Defense were terrible in 2010 and 2019 so lets hope with all the changes we improve like 2011 team.. if so we do have a shot at playoffs

The 2011 O-line was much better than what we are looking at right now.

Whit was an All-Pro level in his prime.
Bobbie Williams was a very solid starter.
Kyle Cook was an excellent center. I think he only allowed 6 sacks in his first 48 starts. Pat Kirwan and others listed him as a "pro bowl snub".
Andre Smith had his first good season after two very disappointing seasons to start his career. By 2013 he was considered one of the better RTs in the league.
Nate Livings played well enough to get a big free agent contract with the Cowboys after that season.


Hopefully one or more of our O-linemen will have a break out season. Going into 2011 no one thought Andre Smith would be anything but a bust.

(09-09-2020, 05:43 PM)Nately120 Wrote: I've been on the same wavelength as soon as it was clear we were replacing Dalton with an instant-star QB.  I have faith in Burrow, but if things look unreasonably sluggish I hope we pull the plug on the guy and use the magic of Burrow to lure a better HC here.

I realize this is an unprecedented situation where a rookie QB hasn't even had a pre-season snap and he's starting, but if our offense looks relatively bad then ZT's is unimpressive resume isn't going to help his case.


So yes, in both 2011 and 2020 we are coming off disappointing years where we could have canned the HC but instead we are moving on with a new QB.

No way you can ZT after one season.. after this year.. possible.. but im not going to start blaming ZT if Burrow does not perform well.. im not giving Burrow a free pass.. as the #1 pick that set records in college he should be held to a high standard also as a rookie

(09-09-2020, 05:42 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: Again neither Gruden had never called OC in NFL.. so we really did not know what we were getting coming in.. Taylor has a year under his belt and second year of system so to me no big difference between them coming into Gruden first season or Taylors second and Taylor has a better offense to work with than Gruden did in 2011.. I agree Zimmer had a clear advantage on Defense but man we never saw a off season like this one with FA on Defense.. and the heavy draft of LBs.. feel much better about our defense and this might be the best Dline we have had in a while

Based on what?
- - - - - -

WRs about about a wash.
AJ Green >> AJ Green
Jerome Simpson << Tyler Boyd
Andre Caldwell ~ John Ross

RBs has an edge to 2020.
Joe Mixon is coming off 2,300 rushing yards/13 TDs the last two years > Cedric Benson was coming off 2,360 rushing yards/13 TDs the previous two years, but Benson with worse YPC.

TEs is all 2011.
Jermaine Gresham >> CJ Uzomah

OL is MASSIVELY 2011.
Andrew Whitworth >>> Jonah Williams
Nate Livings ~ Michael Johnson
Kyle Cook ~ Trey Hopkins
Bobbie Williams > Xavier Su'a-Filo
Andre Smith >> Bobby Hart