Discuss.

Like I've said all along, he is a beast in man coverage, not so great in zone.

(10-05-2020, 04:43 PM)Sled21 Wrote: Like I've said all along, he is a beast in man coverage, not so great in zone.

Re-sign him or not?

Thought he was going to be huge after 2017.

5 years into his career now, and in his age 28 season he pretty much is what he is now, I would imagine. Turned out to be just an okay starter with no ball skills. A shame.

Not a terrible result from the pick, but certainly not what we all hoped could have been after '17 and seeing him do so well against Antonio Brown.

It IS pretty sad that "okay starter with no ball skills" is by far the best of the 3 1st round CBs they picked over that 5 year span.

(10-05-2020, 04:43 PM)Sled21 Wrote: Like I've said all along, he is a beast in man coverage, not so great in zone.

This.  and more than not so great at tackling.  But I'm glad we have him

(10-05-2020, 04:46 PM)McC Wrote: Re-sign him or not?

Unless we happen on something better, then of course we re-sign him. I'm all for upgrading, but not for cutting someone until you actually find that upgrade. 

He’s played really well so far this season. Best he’s looked since his first year. He’s going to get paid. And I’m pretty sure it will be by us. We’ll have a hell of a lot of money tied up in CB’s between him and Waynes, but I really don’t want to have to use another high draft pick on one.

Anybody know how his PFF grades are?

(10-05-2020, 04:50 PM)Sled21 Wrote: Unless we happen on something better, then of course we re-sign him. I'm all for upgrading, but not for cutting someone until you actually find that upgrade. 

He's going to be a free agent aftert this season. (I definitely wouldn't cut him either, if he had years left on his deal)

With him, just like everyone else, it comes down to his price.  What will it take to keep him here, what are his demands?

If he comes in high, or overvalues himself, then I think it would make perfect sense to at least consider what is going to be available on the open market.

(10-05-2020, 04:59 PM)McC Wrote: Anybody know how his PFF grades are?

From a free perspective, it says he has a 67.5 grade (certainly better than his 2019 53.6) and has allowed 15 catches on 23 targets into his coverage.

Anything more is behind the paywall.

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As I said earlier, I think he's an okay starter, but I think this upcoming CB FA is pretty damn weak. So I worry about someone driving up the price and while it'd be nice to bring him back at a reasonable amount, I don't want to see the Bengals get into a bidding war over an okay starter.

(10-05-2020, 05:01 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: From a free perspective, it says he has a 67.5 grade (certainly better than his 2019 53.6) and has allowed 15 catches on 23 targets into his coverage.

Anything more is behind the paywall.

Sounds like a decent grade but nobody will be talking about Jackson Island.

(10-05-2020, 05:01 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: From a free perspective, it says he has a 67.5 grade (certainly better than his 2019 53.6) and has allowed 15 catches on 23 targets into his coverage.

Anything more is behind the paywall.

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As I said earlier, I think he's an okay starter, but I think this upcoming CB FA is pretty damn weak. So I worry about someone driving up the price and while it'd be nice to bring him back at a reasonable amount, I don't want to see the Bengals get into a bidding war over an okay starter.

Yeah.  CB's in general tend to get over valued on the FA market to begin with.

He must of had a terrible game this week because he was rated a top 5 CB according to PFF coming into the Jags game.

(10-05-2020, 05:05 PM)J24 Wrote: He must of had a terrible game this week because he was rated a top 5 CB according to PFF coming into the Jags game.

Hmm.  He didn't seem to have a terrible game.  He did get beaten pretty badly on the first Chark TD.  The other Chark TD came against Sims.  I think Jackson also had a PI called on him, if I'm remembering right.

Just some food for thought: Mackenzie Alexander is on a one year deal, and will also hit the market this offseason.

We're also going to have 16 million dollars commited to Tre Waynes next season. With that in mind, I can't envison us keeping both WJIII and Alexander.

I have to figure, after signing a one year deal, that Alexander will look for a multi-year contract this time around. Depending on how the year plays out, his market value could vary greatly.

Maybe Alexander takes a team friendly deal for the security that a respectable signing bonus provides. He may be the better use of cap dollars.

Alexander made a couple of really nice plays this year that caught my attention. WJIII definitely seems to be better in coverage, but the problem is he is not always the most consitent.

If WJIII is looking at a long-term 10-14 mil per deal, I'm not sure it's the best use of money. We'd have around 30 mil tied up into two CB's are that are far from elite. It may be better to bring keep a guy like Alexander, hope guys like Phillips and Simms keep progressing, and round out the group with a draft pick or two.

(10-05-2020, 05:03 PM)McC Wrote: Sounds like a decent grade but nobody will be talking about Jackson Island.

Yup, an okay starter. Not a difference maker, but not the problem. There's plenty of need for okay starters around the league. Just don't normally want to spend a 1st round pick on one.

(10-05-2020, 05:04 PM)McC Wrote: Yeah.  CB's in general tend to get over valued on the FA market to begin with.

Kirkpatrick was normally graded around 60 flat, plus a bad year or two.

So I am just hoping there's not a Dre Kirkpatrick pt 2 this offseason and they offer him $14m/yr+... I wouldn't mind WJ3 back at the $8/yr range plus or minus a million.

I think an interesting thing to see is how the expected huge dip in salary cap will affect the FA contracts in 2021. This year it's a $198.2m cap, and next year it's been roughly estimated to drop to $175m which would be the lowest it's been since 2017.

(10-05-2020, 05:12 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Just some food for thought:  Mackenzie Alexander is on a one year deal, and will also hit the market this offseason.

We're also going to have 16 million dollars commited to Tre Waynes next season.  With that in mind, I can't envison us keeping both WJIII and Alexander.

I have to figure, after signing a one year deal, that Alexander will look for a multi-year contract this time around.  Depending on how the year plays out, his market value could vary greatly.

Maybe Alexander takes a team friendly deal for the security that a respectable signing bonus provides.  He may be the better use of cap dollars.

Alexander made a couple of really nice plays this year that caught my attention.  WJIII definitely seems to be better in coverage, but the problem is he is not always the most consitent.

If WJIII is looking at a long-term 10-14 mil per deal, I'm not sure it's the best use of money.  We'd have around 30 mil tied up into two CB's are that are far from elite.  It may be better to bring keep a guy like Alexander, hope guys like Phillips and Simms keep progressing, and round out the group with a draft pick or two.

His ball skills are pretty suspect too.

(10-05-2020, 05:12 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Yup, an okay starter. Not a difference maker, but not the problem. There's plenty of need for okay starters around the league. Just don't normally want to spend a 1st round pick on one.


Kirkpatrick was normally graded around 60 flat, plus a bad year or two.

So I am just hoping there's not a Dre Kirkpatrick pt 2 this offseason and they offer him $14m/yr+... I wouldn't mind WJ3 back at the $8/yr range plus or minus a million.

I think an interesting thing to see is how the expected huge dip in salary cap will affect the FA contracts in 2021. This year it's a $198.2m cap, and next year it's been roughly estimated to drop to $175m which would be the lowest it's been since 2017.

Very good point.

Overall I think hes a very.average CB.seems like everytime he gets
Burned or toasted it leads to a score or it is a score.
That play to Chark too.much cushion.to.give to a WR.
Chark snookered him.good and then WJ tries to say and plead
He never got his feet in the back line.
Even.his tackling isnt the best. Hes not a big time hitter either.
And rarely do you see him come off the slot and blitz.
I dont think he is worth the money.
Hes not the best CB in.AFC North.
Hes not a bust but hes not elite either.

WJ III is a likeable guy. He has played through injury before and generally seems to hold his own in man coverage. It is hard to justify making a guy a cornerstone of your defense if he's not scheme flexible, however. Man to man can be defeated with rubs, fast/strong receivers, or extended plays - against top teams you want to be able to play zone so that you have a chance at turnovers. 

I think that it boils down to what Waynes can show. If he's a total and complete flop this year I think that you have to seriously consider eating $10 mil(yuck) in guaranteed money so that you can re-sign WJIII. If he's all that and a bag of chips, you can comfortably keep him and only re-sign WJIII if the price is right. Paying out the nose for two corners just doesn't make a ton of sense to me unless you have a top performing defense that you don't want to break up.