First Round
David Pollack '05....Looked like a solid starter but not a first round star.
Keith Rivers '08.....WHIFF

Second Round
Odell Thurman '05....Looked like potential star, but had more red flags than almost any player in draft history....WHIFF
Ray Maualuga '09.....Not as bad as many people here claim, but did not live up to being the #38 pick in the draft.

Third Round
Caleb Miller '04..........WHIFF
Landon Johnson '04....Started early in his career due to guys in front of him getting hurt.  Eventually developed into a decent starter.
Ahmad Brooks '06......WHIFF
Dontay Moch '11........WHIFF
Paul Dawson '15.........No Grade.  Too early.

Fourth Round
Roddrick Muckelroy '10....WHIFF
Sean Porter '13...............WHIFF

Others
Khalid Abdullah (5th) '03.....WHIFF
A.J. Nicholson (5th) '06.......WHIFF
Angelo Craig (7th) '08.........WHIFF
Marquise Flowers (6th) '14...WHIFF


I will not count Pollack as a whiff, but even giving Marvin the benefit of the doubt on that one his record at drafting linebackers is abysmal.

When he first got here he took small fast linebackers (Abdullah, Johnson, Miller).  Landon Johnson claimed that by the end of his rookies season when he was starting at MLB he weighed less than 220.  Later in his career he added weight and played some decent LB for us.  But other than Johnson, Maualuga and Rivers were the only ones who started more than one season.  

Let that sink in for a minute.  In a decade plus 3 years of drafting college players the best LBs Marvin has ever taken were Landon Johnson, Keith Rivers, and Ray Maualuga.  And Rivers was the #9 overall pick in the draft.

Right now I am just trying to be objective and not judge Dawson based on Marvin's past record of drafting LBs.

You're kind of glossing over a lot of detail in this.

The two first round picks suffered severe injuries that ended up de-railing their respective careers. Have to remember how good Rivers was as a rookie, a lot of potential.

I think all things considered Maualuga has lived up to what was expected. I mean, he has been a solid starter for 6 years.

I still think that his record, like you said, is not great. A lot of 3rd and 4th rounders that have missed. If you consider how much quality we have got in Marvin's tenure in other positions later on in the draft, the linebackers have been disappointing. That being said had Pollack and Rivers not been injured things would have been a lot different. Have to think that at 31 (Pollack) and Rivers (29) both would probably still be playing/on the team had things had gone differently for them.

But haven't we been pretty good at picking up guys off waivers or in supplemental drafts or undrafted FAs?

Burfict wasn't drafted, right? He was an undrafted FA, right? And don't forget Ahmad Brooks. He was a supplemental draft guy, right?

Not that this really changes your point, but it seems that as long as we didn't draft them between the 3rd and 7th rounds, we're pretty good at getting LBs.

Marvin is a great LB coach, but I think he overestimates his ability to train up any scrub that comes in here. We are certainly seeing the effects of settling for UDFA LB's for the last few years.

How many teams in college even run the 4-3 anymore? It seems like every year, all of the highly graded LB prospects are edge rushers from 3-4 schemes. For what is available that fits our defensive  scheme, Burfict and Dawson could be great picks.... but only time will tell. I just don't know how easy it is to find NFL level 4-3 linebackers anymore. Maybe I'm off on this, the only great 4-3 backer (who wasn't mainly an edge rusher) I can think of lately that got drafted was Luke Keuckly.

Ahmad Brooks, Burfict, Rey and maybe Skuta have to fit somewhere in this discussion, even though Burfict, Rey and IIRC Skuta were not drafted.

Edit -- Looks like PhilHos already covered this.

Not disagreeing on the idea that we haven't had the best of LBers.

However, I think Flowers shouldn't be on the whiff list yet. He isn't playing this year due to injury and was a rookie last season.

Now if he continues to stay hurt or doesn't catch on, then I can agree with him being on the whiff list. Just can't do it yet.

I am curious as to why Burfict isn't on here. He was an UDFA, but Marvin was a huge reason for him coming here. He (unlike Flowers) has shown that he can be a force on the field. I hope he returns soon and is just as full of impact as he was before his injury.

(10-27-2015, 07:26 PM)GreenCornBengal Wrote: Marvin is a great LB coach, but I think he overestimates his ability to train up any scrub that comes in here. We are certainly seeing the effects of settling for UDFA LB's for the last few years.

How many teams in college even run the 4-3 anymore? It seems like every year, all of the highly graded LB prospects are edge rushers from 3-4 schemes. For what is available that fits our defensive  scheme, Burfict and Dawson could be great picks.... but only time will tell. I just don't know how easy it is to find NFL level 4-3 linebackers anymore. Maybe I'm off on this, the only great 4-3 backer (who wasn't mainly an edge rusher) I can think of lately that got drafted was Luke Keuckly.

And Patrick Willis.  Don't know if SF ran a 3-4 with him or not, but he would have been great in either system.

Part of the problem here is that LB seems to be the position where Marvin gets tempted into projects and also drafting based on measurables instead of game tape that says they have football smarts. And I think we see this on the field where our LB problems are much more mental than physical.

(10-27-2015, 08:17 PM)Joelist Wrote: Part of the problem here is that LB seems to be the position where Marvin gets tempted into projects and also drafting based on measurables instead of game tape that says they have football smarts. And I think we see this on the field where our LB problems are much more mental than physical.

The problem with that is, even if Marvin sees a guy that he could coach into a good player, he's not a position coach anymore..

Porter should get an incomplete at the moment. He's just been snake bit by the injury bug. Hopefully he'll show us something good when he comes off of PUP

(10-27-2015, 08:39 PM)pally Wrote: Porter should get an incomplete at the moment.  He's just been snake bit by the injury bug.  Hopefully he'll show us something good when he comes off of PUP

I'm not holding my breath.  The dude seems to be made of glass.

(10-27-2015, 07:26 PM)GreenCornBengal Wrote: Marvin is a great LB coach, but I think he overestimates his ability to train up any scrub that comes in here. We are certainly seeing the effects of settling for UDFA LB's for the last few years.

How many teams in college even run the 4-3 anymore? It seems like every year, all of the highly graded LB prospects are edge rushers from 3-4 schemes. For what is available that fits our defensive  scheme, Burfict and Dawson could be great picks.... but only time will tell. I just don't know how easy it is to find NFL level 4-3 linebackers anymore. Maybe I'm off on this, the only great 4-3 backer (who wasn't mainly an edge rusher) I can think of lately that got drafted was Luke Keuckly.

There's still plenty of potential 4-3 LB talent available each year. These guys would be upgrades over everyone on the Bengals roster (other than a healthy Burfict). Too early to judge 2015 picks, but chosen between Luke Kuechley (your cutoff point) at 9th overall in 2012 and right before the 2015 draft, you have...

2014:
Anthony Barr
CJ Mosley
Christian Kirksey
Preston Brown
Chris Borland (though he retired... but who would WANT to play on the 2015 49ers?)
Telvin Smith

2013:
Kiko Alonso
Jamie Collins
Jelani Jenkins
Paul Worrilow

2012: (After Kuechley)
Dont'a Hightower
Mychal Kendricks
Bobby Wagner
Zach Brown
Lavonte David
Demario Davis
Brandon Marshall
Danny Trevathan
(Burfict right here.)


There's still plenty of LB talent that could help the Bengals' 4-3 defense each draft, they're just not getting it.

(10-27-2015, 09:09 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: I'm not holding my breath.  The dude seems to be made of glass.

Agreed. When you're in your third year in the NFL, and you still don't have a single tackle, and have only one game active to your name? Whiff.

Too early to call Flowers a bust.

(10-27-2015, 10:14 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: There's still plenty of potential 4-3 LB talent available each year. These guys would be upgrades over everyone on the Bengals roster (other than a healthy Burfict). Too early to judge 2015 picks, but chosen between Luke Kuechley (your cutoff point) at 9th overall in 2012 and right before the 2015 draft, you have...

2014:
Anthony Barr
CJ Mosley
Christian Kirksey
Preston Brown
Chris Borland (though he retired... but who would WANT to play on the 2015 49ers?)
Telvin Smith

2013:
Kiko Alonso
Jamie Collins
Jelani Jenkins
Paul Worrilow

2012: (After Kuechley)
Dont'a Hightower
Mychal Kendricks
Bobby Wagner
Zach Brown
Lavonte David
Demario Davis
Brandon Marshall
Danny Trevathan
(Burfict right here.)


There's still plenty of LB talent that could help the Bengals' 4-3 defense each draft, they're just not getting it.

I agree there is talent out there, but lets not pretend that these guys were known of ahead of time. Only a few of them were highly touted going into the draft. I think I worded my original post incorrectly. There is obviously 4-3 talent out there due to the fact that there are many 4-3 schemes in the NFL, there just aren't many spot on 100% draftable LB's often.

I'm too lazy to look up the rounds that the players you mentioned were drafted but I think many of them were 3rd round or later.

Keuchly was a sure deal and same with Anthony Barr and a few others, but most of the guys you mentioned were found in later rounds

You could list plenty of WR's who were drafted that worked out great, but I'm talking about guys of AJ Green caliber. Guys that YOU KNOW are going to be studs in the NFL. There aren't many LBs like that from 4-3 schemes in the draft. Even if there were, we would never have a high enough draft pick to get them.

meh starting to confuse even myself now, hopefully you know why im trying to say.

(10-27-2015, 10:19 PM)ExtraRadiohead Wrote: Too early to call Flowers a bust.

Can a 6th round pick really be a bust in the first place?

(10-27-2015, 10:14 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: There's still plenty of potential 4-3 LB talent available each year. These guys would be upgrades over everyone on the Bengals roster (other than a healthy Burfict). Too early to judge 2015 picks, but chosen between Luke Kuechley (your cutoff point) at 9th overall in 2012 and right before the 2015 draft, you have...

2014:
Anthony Barr
CJ Mosley
Christian Kirksey
Preston Brown
Chris Borland (though he retired... but who would WANT to play on the 2015 49ers?)
Telvin Smith

2013:
Kiko Alonso
Jamie Collins
Jelani Jenkins
Paul Worrilow

2012: (After Kuechley)
Dont'a Hightower
Mychal Kendricks
Bobby Wagner
Zach Brown
Lavonte David
Demario Davis
Brandon Marshall
Danny Trevathan
(Burfict right here.)


There's still plenty of LB talent that could help the Bengals' 4-3 defense each draft, they're just not getting it.

Don't the Raiders run a 4-3? Khalil Mack is a stud. He was picked before Barr

(10-27-2015, 10:30 PM)GreenCornBengal Wrote: I agree there is talent out there, but lets not pretend that these guys were known of ahead of time. Only a few of them were highly touted going into the draft. I think I worded my original post incorrectly. There is obviously 4-3 talent out there due to the fact that there are many 4-3 schemes in the NFL, there just aren't many spot on 100% draftable LB's often.

I'm too lazy to look up the rounds that the players you mentioned were drafted but I think many of them were 3rd round or later.

Keuchly was a sure deal and same with Anthony Barr and a few others, but most of the guys you mentioned were found in later rounds

You could list plenty of WR's who were drafted that worked out great, but I'm talking about guys of AJ Green caliber. Guys that YOU KNOW are going to be studs in the NFL. There aren't many LBs like that from 4-3 schemes in the draft. Even if there were, we would never have a high enough draft pick to get them.

meh starting to confuse even myself now, hopefully you know why im trying to say.

I know what you're trying to say, but out of the 18 LBs I listed (not counting Kuechley or Burfict) 12 of them were drafted in the 1st-3rd rounds. If you're drafted in the third round, you're 100% draftable. If you want to cut out the third round (not sure why, because the third round is still a prime target zone and is still Day 2 of the draft) you'd still have 9 of the 18 drafted in the 1st or 2nd rounds.

If you're talking 100% known, you're not going to have many of those. Why? Because they don't exist very often. That's why AJ Green was such a big deal. If you're looking for AJ Green type draft prospects for ANY position who follow through with their hype, you'll find a lack of them. Trent Richardson was a "100% known" and is now out of the league. People who are touted as can't miss and actually are can't miss don't happen often.


- - - - -

(10-27-2015, 11:02 PM)Bryan Wrote: Don't the Raiders run a 4-3? Khalil Mack is a stud. He was picked before Barr

Mack is considered a DE now, which is why I didn't list him.
http://www.nfl.com/player/khalilmack/2543463/profile

Let me first say that I think it's pretty hard to ***** about our drafting lately.

Having said that, I do believe that our linebacking group is the weakest part of our defense.

But the problem is easy to see. We just have a scarcity of first and second round talent at linebacker. I know there are still some great players in later rounds, but the odds are still with those higher choices.

I think in next year's draft we'll see some early picks at linebacker.

Brooks is still playing in the league... But i guess it was a whiff cause he was hurt here or didnt fit the scheme..