I said this in another thread and stand by it. John Ross was done here the day he was drafted. You can blame it on both him or the coaches, but one thing that Ross has made perfectly clear is that he is too weak in the mind to be a Bengal. Dude has zero confidence, and that cant be coached by a coach. He needs a counselor for that kind of stuff.

(10-21-2020, 03:16 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Yeah, but THIS year Thomas has been better correct?

And you know me, backed up Ross for years taking shit.

That's hard to say, honestly.
I think Thomas has been active primarily because he also contributes to ST whereas Ross does not. Same reason Erickson has been active too.
I think if Ross had not been inactive for 3 games, he'd possibly have more receptions and therefore yards.

I think a better way to say what you're saying is that Thomas has been more productive, not necessarily that he's better.

(10-21-2020, 03:20 PM)bengaloo Wrote: I said this in another thread and stand by it. John Ross was done here the day he was drafted. You can blame it on both him or the coaches, but one thing that Ross has made perfectly clear is that he is too weak in the mind to be a Bengal. Dude has zero confidence, and that cant be coached by a coach. He needs a counselor for that kind of stuff.

I see this mentioned, but I don't really understand what confidence he doesn't have?
Not confident in the route he's running? Or not confident in catching the ball?

Ross is a great athlete, but not a very good football player. The guy practically disentigrates on contact, and aside from his speed his skills related to the position he plays are bench worthy at best. He is not made for this game. Take what you can get for him and move on.

(10-21-2020, 03:24 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I see this mentioned, but I don't really understand what confidence he doesn't have?
Not confident in the route he's running? Or not confident in catching the ball?

Honestly I just dont think he has confidence about much. You can argue that Marvin contributed to that, but even Ross himself has admitted that he lacks confidence and has to work on that. I dont think he ever did.

But if I were to guess between those 2 options Id say not catching the ball. He has dropped a lot of passes in his brief career here. He gives up too often as well and just doesnt look like a decent player out there most of the time.

Well, the FO doesn't like to trade because they aren't in the business of making other teams better.

So I wonder how they feel about making other teams worse? A trade involving Ross would be just the ticket...

They should trade him for anything because Ross isn’t going to be here next season and that draft pick could help you in the future. Perfect example we traded Keith Rivers who was the 9th pick overall just like Ross to the New York Giants for a 5th round pick. That 5th round pick ended up being George Iloka. We also traded Chad Johnson to the Patriots for a 5th round pick that ended up being Marvin Jones.

(10-21-2020, 03:04 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Just grab a guy by the face mask and scream at him until he was too scared to ever make a mistake again. Then take a big 'ol dump on ZT's play sheet and just run his own damn offense that makes OL blocking pointless and WR's ability to get separation meaningless because he'd extend the play and throw everyone open. I almost feel like I was promised that in the offseason.   

You forgot kicking in Mike browns door and ordering him to hire a GM. 

(10-21-2020, 12:45 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Except how do you know if they aren't good anymore if their decline directly coincided with dumpster fire coaches arriving?

Just like how Zimmer could take Tank Johnson, Rey Maualuga, Roy Williams, and Chris Crocker and make a good defense with superior coaching and scheme.... Maybe Taylor and Anarumo are turning lemonade into lemons with vastly inferior coaching and scheme. It isn't like there is an abundance of people thriving under them.

Ross, Tate, and Phillips all had career years last year, so the idea that all of these guys began declining as soon as the current staff arrived is a false narrative.

The Bengals were also 32nd in total defense in 2018, Marvin's last year, when the defensive players pulled a similar rebellion on Teryl Austin.  Their current 25th ranking is a fairly significant improvement.  Plus, it's not like most of these guys aren't getting outplayed by their counterparts.  Green, Atkins, and Dunlap are the age where players start naturally declining, anyways.

I have no issue with canning Zac and Co.at the end of the year, barring a dramatic turnaround, but I don't think it will happen.  Coaching isn't the only issue.  Lack of talent and poor player leadership are also big issues.

(10-21-2020, 03:04 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Just grab a guy by the face mask and scream at him until he was too scared to ever make a mistake again. Then take a big 'ol dump on ZT's play sheet and just run his own damn offense that makes OL blocking pointless and WR's ability to get separation meaningless because he'd extend the play and throw everyone open. I almost feel like I was promised that in the offseason.   

Yeah well we were promised flying cars by the year 2000, where the f*** are they? 

(10-21-2020, 03:16 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Bengals don't have 4 better options than Thomas?
I count 4 - Boyd, Higgins, Green, Tate.
5 if you include Ross (which I would).

Personally, I think Thomas is similar to Erickson. Both have low ceilings, but both put in effort. Ross has shown he's far more dynamic than either of those guys has ever shown, but Ross's production comes in spurts due to drops, concentration, injuries, and sometimes effort.

I get why you and others don't like Ross. However, the Bengals will not win games based on the performance of Thomas or Erickson. Ross has the ability to have 100+ yard games at times throughout the year. I don't believe Erickson or Thomas will ever have that kind of game.

I was incorrect then.  He's the 5th option.  

Ross is 6th.

Ross sucks.

(10-21-2020, 03:50 PM)Whatever Wrote: Ross, Tate, and Phillips all had career years last year, so the idea that all of these guys began declining as soon as the current staff arrived is a false narrative.

The Bengals were also 32nd in total defense in 2018, Marvin's last year, when the defensive players pulled a similar rebellion on Teryl Austin.  Their current 25th ranking is a fairly significant improvement.  Plus, it's not like most of these guys aren't getting outplayed by their counterparts.  Green, Atkins, and Dunlap are the age where players start naturally declining, anyways.

I have no issue with canning Zac and Co.at the end of the year, barring a dramatic turnaround, but I don't think it will happen.  Coaching isn't the only issue.  Lack of talent and poor player leadership are also big issues.

A 5th round pick and 7th round pick were better in their 2nd year than their rookie year? Woah. Mind blown.  

Also John Ross had a career 1 game and 1 garbage time TD. Outside of that he was the same guy he'd always been.

- - - - - -

Yup, 32nd, to 29th in 2019, to 25th in 2020... another 3-4 more years sucking slightly less at that rate and they'll have an above average defense.  

You're basically arguing that while we're in a pile of shit, it's a SLIGHTLY smaller pile of shit than 2018, so huzzah!

Nevermind that MOST people don't want to be in a pile of shit at all.

(10-21-2020, 03:59 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: A 5th round pick and 7th round pick were better in their 2nd year than their rookie year? Woah. Mind blown.  

Also John Ross had a career 1 game and 1 garbage time TD. Outside of that he was the same guy he'd always been.

- - - - - -

Yup, 32nd, to 29th in 2019, to 25th in 2020... another 3-4 more years sucking slightly less at that rate and they'll have an above average defense.  

You're basically arguing that while we're in a pile of shit, it's a SLIGHTLY smaller pile of shit than 2018, so huzzah!

Nevermind that MOST people don't want to be in a pile of shit at all.

That's just straight false.

In 2019, Ross had 3/8 games in which he had 4+ receptions and 80+ yards.
While that's not WR1 status, it's better than he did in 2018, in which the most yards he had in a game was 52 yards. The most receptions he had in a game in 2018 was 3. So he did improve from 2018 to 2019.

The fact of the matter is people wanted him to be a consistent 50+ yard guy  this year, which may have been hard with Green back and Higgins just drafted.
Remember, when Ross was his most productive, he was WR2 on the team.
He basically became WR3/4 in the first two games, and then last weekend he was WR5/6.
He saw a total of 5 targets in Wk 1, 2 in Wk 2, and 0 in Wk 6.

At this point, Ross is never going to get the opportunities for him to produce, so there's no point in even entertaining the idea. His best bet is to go to a new team (SEA given he played college at Washington?). I hope he succeeds wherever he goes.

(10-21-2020, 03:20 PM)bengaloo Wrote: I said this in another thread and stand by it. John Ross was done here the day he was drafted. You can blame it on both him or the coaches, but one thing that Ross has made perfectly clear is that he is too weak in the mind to be a Bengal. Dude has zero confidence, and that cant be coached by a coach. He needs a counselor for that kind of stuff.

His entire career has been full of stat-padding garbage time and he plays for a team fans and the media rarely focus on...the guy should be the Matt Stafford of WRs. 

The pressure of playing for a team that hasn't played a big game since he got here and no one expects to win?  Ida know...seems this is the prime spot for him to produce. He wouldn't last in New England or Dallas or NY and so on.

(10-21-2020, 03:22 PM)ochocincos Wrote: That's hard to say, honestly.
I think Thomas has been active primarily because he also contributes to ST whereas Ross does not. Same reason Erickson has been active too.
I think if Ross had not been inactive for 3 games, he'd possibly have more receptions and therefore yards.

I think a better way to say what you're saying is that Thomas has been more productive, not necessarily that he's better.

That is a better way to say it.

Just saying Thomas has a TD and numerous catches this year and Ross has like 1 catch as far as I know.

(10-21-2020, 05:02 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: That is a better way to say it.

Just saying Thomas has a TD and numerous catches this year and Ross has like 1 catch as far as I know.

I've been pulling for Ross from the beginning. But now it's just time to admit he's a failure. There's no getting around it anymore.

(10-21-2020, 05:02 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: That is a better way to say it.

Just saying Thomas has a TD and numerous catches this year and Ross has like 1 catch as far as I know.

Ross has 2 catches, but still.

Thomas, who has been active every game this season, has 78 yards on the season. He's on pace for just 208 yards and 2-3 TDs.
It will have been the most yards and TDs in his career.
Ross exceeded those numbers both in 2018 and 2019, seasons in which he played 8+ games.
Ross is purely more talented than Thomas.

Also, I don't know how much I really trust the coaches when they give Thomas reps over Ross, as they are playing Amani Bledsoe and Xavier Williams more than Dunlap and Atkins.

Do we really think this coaching staff is the best judge of talent?

(10-21-2020, 05:06 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: I've been pulling for Ross from the beginning. But now it's just time to admit he's a failure. There's no getting around it anymore.

I have finally had enough if he cannot even get on the field and catch the damn ball.

No excuses for running the wrong routes and not catching balls thrown your way when you are healthy.

(10-21-2020, 05:18 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Ross has 2 catches, but still.

Thomas, who has been active every game this season, has 78 yards on the season. He's on pace for just 208 yards and 2-3 TDs.
It will have been the most yards and TDs in his career.
Ross exceeded those numbers both in 2018 and 2019, seasons in which he played 8+ games.
Ross is purely more talented than Thomas.

Also, I don't know how much I really trust the coaches when they give Thomas reps over Ross, as they are playing Amani Bledsoe and Xavier Williams more than Dunlap and Atkins.

Do we really think this coaching staff is the best judge of talent?

Well, from the little I have seen of Geno it is the right call right now lol

And I have liked a bit from what I have seen from Bledsoe, Xavier and Covington at times.

Dunlap has been frustrating over pursuing like he has. Lawson is better than Dunlap at this moment IMO.

I know the PFF rankings might not agree but it is what I see out there.

If I were the Bengals I would even consider trading him for a conditional pick. Even if those conditions aren't met, and we end up with nothing, I still think it's the wise move.

He offers nothing at this point to our team. Actually, I take that back. He offers the abilty to pollute the locker room by being unhappy. (Note: I'm not blaming Ross for being unhappy, I'm just pointing out the fact that he's not necessarily someone you want in the locker room)

Even after we eat the bonus portion of his cap, John Ross' remaining base pay for the season is 2.8. If you traded him at the deadline it would still net you 1.4 mil in savings.

I would literally take anything for him right now. And if there are zero offers, I'd probably just cut bait. Do yourself and him a solid by moving on. You save some coin, and remove a disgruntled employee, he gets a fresh start with a chance to catch on somewher else.

Nothing good will come from him being on this team, unless they magically find a way to get him 20+ snaps a game. And I think we all know that's not going to happen.

(10-21-2020, 04:42 PM)ochocincos Wrote: That's just straight false.

In 2019, Ross had 3/8 games in which he had 4+ receptions and 80+ yards.
While that's not WR1 status, it's better than he did in 2018, in which the most yards he had in a game was 52 yards. The most receptions he had in a game in 2018 was 3. So he did improve from 2018 to 2019.

-If it takes you 13 targets to get 6 catches (MIA game), you're not doing well.
-If you have 46 yards receiving through the first 59 minutes of the game and you're down 41-10 (49ers game), it doesn't suddenly make it better when you get the pinnacle of garbage time TDs.

As I said, he had 1 great game (Seattle) and 1 pure garbage time TD (49ers) that was all the good he did all year.

He also dropped 14.3% of his targets in 2019 which is somehow worse than his already bad 12.1% drop rate in 2018.