(10-25-2020, 01:26 AM)Bengalholic Wrote: Honestly, at this point, I'm tired of Zac and Carlos.

All I want for Christmas is a new owner, a real GM, a head coach that looks competent, some quality position coaches, an o-line that can block, receivers that can create separation, a defense that can stop the run, pressure the QB, and occasionally cover a TE. 

Is that too much to ask for? 

Apparently yes

(10-24-2020, 01:12 PM)TheFan Wrote: In what way was he a diva? I get this past year but in his first like 8-9 seasons what did he ever do? 

Zac has handled the dealing of players in the worst way possible in just about every situation. How many players have to get pissed and want out due to him before some of you realize maybe HE'S the problem?

How many people have been at a job where there's a horrible manager who doesn't treat their employees well? Eventually people get sick of it and leave. In the NFL you can't just quit and get a new job so this is the only avenue for them to show their frustration. Obviously it's not the best way or most professional but to think ZT isn't playing a massive role in all of these situations is simply being blind.

Unlike Zac Taylor Carlos has proven to be successful at his job throughout his career. Taylor is a bum, as is most of his coaching staff, as are the owners. I feel bad for Burrow.

It would probably be in his best interest for Carlos to just keep his head down and produce rather than publicly criticizing his team. He has not had a good season so far, so it's hard to take his position seriously since he would be playing more if he were actually making plays when he was in the game...

BUT

...The coaches ***** up. With him and a lot of the roster. The coaches are a problem and, while it wouldn't be my preferred strategy, I understand why Carlos is frustrated. These coaches are incredibly inexperienced and it has proven to be a major hindrance to the team's progress. Taylor is still calling plays and he does not look like an offensive genius in any way. We still have one of the worst Oline coaches in the NFL and Lou, while he has flashed some good moments like his game plan against Lamar Jackson, has allowed way too many easy points when he had a lead, especially in the final 2 minutes of each half.

When some of your losses are close during a rebuild, especially the ones against better competition, it feels encouraging. When all of your losses are close, even games that you should have won, it begins to be a pattern that indicates poor coaching.

I think if losing keeps happening, especially in the manner that it has, more and more players are going to begin speaking out.

I'm currently of the opinion that we need an experienced head coach to come in and bring a brand new coaching staff with an actual "prodigy" at OC, rather than a supposed prodigy at HC. It still boils my blood that we couldn't lock Joe Brady down to replace Callahan even when we had his ***** star student.

I'm done with Zac Taylor.

i'm glad some player feels the same as we do

(10-25-2020, 01:03 AM)GreenCornBengal Wrote: Woah woah woah hold on a minute. Aren’t you the guy that is always using pass rush win rate as a way of saying Carl Lawson is one of the best rushers in the league? Didn’t you and I have a huge debate this offseason because i said PRWR is nothing if you can’t finish and you told me I was silly?

Lawson had 22 QB hits and 23 pressures last year.  Those count as pass rush production even if he doesn't always finish with a sack. 

(10-25-2020, 09:52 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Lawson had 22 QB hits and 23 pressures last year.  Those count as pass rush production even if he doesn't always finish with a sack. 

I remember you saying this.

“When Lawson pressures a QB without sacking him the pressure still effects the QBs efficiency. Everyone here has seen the numbers for QBs "under pressure". Even the best see their numbers drop.

So getting pressure that does not result in a sack still has a benefit to the defense.”

I thought you made the case that just getting pressure was production despite whether there was a hit or not.

All I know is that Dunlap came into the year as a starter and a guy who was looked at as a team leader on and off the field. He did not live up to any of that in any way. His play has not been good at all this season and his leadership is none. He's acting like a baby. We have very little pass rush and the coaches are in charge of trying to improve that. I'm not at all on the ZT bandwagon, but in my mind this is all on Dunlap. Its just a piss poor way of handling the decline in his play and the reaction from coaches who are trying to improve a struggling position by giving other players a chance to prove themselves.

I hope they cut him in the middle of last night personally.

(10-25-2020, 10:16 AM)GreenCornBengal Wrote: I thought you made the case that just getting pressure was production despite whether there was a hit or not.

yes, that is exactly what I said.  But a "pass rush win" does not always equal a "pressure" or a "hurry".  You can beat a blocker in under 2.5 seconds and still not get close to the QB.

(10-24-2020, 11:56 PM)fredtoast Wrote: According to this Amani has only 2 fewer "pass rush wins" (4) than Dunlap (6) but for some reason he has 0 sacks, 0 QB hits, 0 PDs, 1 hurry, and 1 pressure while Dunlap has 2PDs, 1 sack, 3 QB hits, 4 hurries, and 6 pressures.

(10-24-2020, 11:50 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Interesting how strongly you feel about personal responsibility, paying for your actions, and performance based employment..... yet nowhere in your post are you mentioning the 3-18-1 coaches who blow 21 point leads and call stupid plays and their actions and performance. Just Dunlap. Very interesting.

I have been very clear my opinions on Taylor, and the other coaches. 

If you believe there is no effort by the coaching staff and everything they are doing is wrong, then you need to explain the play of Bates, Wilson, ADG, Burrow, Higgins, J. Williams, and perhaps Carl Lawson.  

I see a dramatic difference in effort and results between those players and the ones complaining about playing time.  If I have one tremendous concern for the coaching staff is are they good "teachers" of what they want from the players.  When I see some of the players taking the coaching and performing and others showing a significant lack of effort (and I include Green in this until Indy), I will take those players to task.  Nothing,  not one damn thing is more frustrating to me than a lack of effort.  

(10-24-2020, 12:03 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Actually, no he isn't.

And that is the big problem.

It is like benching Dalton for Finley all over again.  The back up is NOT better.  

According to PFF:

Amani Bledsoe 55.1
Khalid Kareem 59.2
Carlos Dulap 53.3

Which one is a veteran being paid $10 million?  Watch the plays.  How many times does Carlos take a wide loop and take himself out of the rush defense actually creating a rush lane?  The answer is so many times that he was moved to third down.  

(10-25-2020, 10:55 AM)fredtoast Wrote: yes, that is exactly what I said.  But a "pass rush win" does not always equal a "pressure" or a "hurry".  You can beat a blocker in under 2.5 seconds and still not get close to the QB.

I guess my only confusion then is why you ever made a thread about Carl Lawson and pass rush win rate if it’s a worthless stat.

Back to the original point of this thread tho, Dunlap. I’m with you, Dunlap is better than Bledsoe. I’m not sure why Bledsoe has warranted so many snaps.

(10-24-2020, 11:57 AM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Even if you hate Zac Taylor and Lou, and you feel they botched this entire situation, I think you still have to admit that Carlos is being a grade A douche.

Out of respect for your teammates, and especially for the Brown family, keep your gripes behind closed doors.  By making this stuff public he's hurting everyone.  

He's even hurting the value in trade compensation (if he has any) by making it known we have to get rid of him.  It's no different than if you're selling anything else.  If someone knows you have to sell, they have leverage.  If you can convince them you're not even sure you want to get rid of it, you have some leverage.  He's killing any leverage we have.

The Browns have paid this man a ton of money.  They've given him two different extensions that made him one of the highest paid players at his position.  They were the ones who initially decided to give him a chance after he slid in the draft.  And this is how he repays them?

This is bs.  He's a whiny ass ***** for doing this out in the open.

Exactly.  If Burrow is going to become the leader of this team, they need to clear out guys that are clearly only thinking of themselves.  Carlos has crazy ability, but his motor has always run hot and cold.  I think he picked it up last year after Hubbard started to become a fan favorite and plays every down like it is his last.  Hubbard might not have the same ability, but he got some of what I call "hustle sacks" where a QB ran back to him and he got to clean it up because he never gave up.  

If anyone wants to take the time to get a picture of Carlos last year and compare it to this year, I think you will see that a spare tire has appeared around his midsection.  That is impressive given the height of 6'6".  I think he didn't work out nearly as much as needed in the offseason and it shows.  He may get his conditioning and strength by season's end, but he isn't helping the team right now with his play or his antics.  

(10-25-2020, 11:03 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: According to PFF:

Amani Bledsoe 55.1
Khalid Kareem 59.2
Carlos Dulap 53.3

Which one is a veteran being paid $10 million?  Watch the plays.  How many times does Carlos take a wide loop and take himself out of the rush defense actually creating a rush lane?  The answer is so many times that he was moved to third down.  

Part of me thinks pass rushers are like running backs. We always talk about how Mixon needs his 20+ carries in order to live up to his potential. I feel that pass rushers make their money in the 4th quarter and need lots of chances to finally hit that big sack. Not saying this is necessarily true with Dunlap at this point in his career. But, if he has more plays, does his PFF grade go up because he hits a few more ‘good grade’ plays.

(10-25-2020, 11:11 AM)GreenCornBengal Wrote: Part of me thinks pass rushers are like running backs. We always talk about how Mixon needs his 20+ carries in order to live up to his potential. I feel that pass rushers make their money in the 4th quarter and need lots of chances to finally hit that big sack. Not saying this is necessarily true with Dunlap at this point in his career. But, if he has more plays, does his PFF grade go up because he hits a few more ‘good grade’ plays.

One thing Carlos has not lacked is opportunities.  He has played much more than anyone else at LDE.  

(10-25-2020, 11:05 AM)GreenCornBengal Wrote: I guess my only confusion then is why you ever made a thread about Carl Lawson and pass rush win rate if it’s a worthless stat.

Back to the original point of this thread tho, Dunlap. I’m with you, Dunlap is better than Bledsoe. I’m not sure why Bledsoe has warranted so many snaps.

My question is what makes one made up stat more/less Bullshit than another made up stat.

QB Pressures are so subjective. As I understand it, a pressure occurs when a QB "moves off his drop back in the pocket".

I'd assume Lamar Jackson fits that definition on almost every pass play. 

IMO the only stat that means anything is a sack. A pressure is like a WR that ran a good route, but the sack is the catch. 

(10-25-2020, 10:45 AM)bengaloo Wrote: . I'm not at all on the ZT bandwagon, but in my mind this is all on Dunlap.

The thing is that none of have any way of knowing.  We hear all the time how a playing lining up "out of position" can effect the defense.  So what if Lou's scheme has Dunlap lining up in the wrong place?  What if the run fit assignments in Lou's scheme are off?  

Coaching schemes makes a HUGE difference in the effectiveness of a defense.  Most of the time fans can not even see subtle adjustments to individual player assignments, but the best coaches use the superior designs and strategy to get the best production form their players.  

With the offense it is easier to see the changes in line splits, WR alignment, line blocking schemes, pass route combinations, etc., but defensive coaches also adjust their schemes and assignments from week to week.  Ever notice how some teams seem to get pressure almost every time they blitz while other teams will blitz repeatedly but it always gets picked up?

So I don't think we can just automatically blame the lack of production all on Dunlap.  To me the whole defense seems to be struggling.

(10-24-2020, 11:56 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Bullshit

According to this Amani has only 2 fewer "pass rush wins" (4) than Dunlap (6) but for some reason he has 0 sacks, 0 QB hits, 0 PDs, 1 hurry, and 1 pressure while Dunlap has 2PDs, 1 sack, 3 QB hits, 4 hurries, and 6 pressures.

Maybe Zac is just looking at nextgen stats instead of game film.

So you saying "Win Rate" is a useless stat?

 Weren't you saying just a couple months ago Pass Block Win Rate is the only way to grade Pass Protection? Not amount of pressures given up...

You can't have it both ways Fred.

(10-24-2020, 01:44 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: So I just read on Ben Baby's twitter that "coward" is an inside joke that's been in the locker room since Brandon Lafell was here in '16.

Take that as you will.

That's what i figured after i read it (inside joke, that is). 

How’s everyone doing?

(10-25-2020, 11:14 AM)bfine32 Wrote: My question is what makes one made up stat more/less Bullshit than another made up stat.

QB hits and PDs are not subjective.

I do agree that many stats are subjective.  But it would be pretty dull around here if we could not talk about "drops", "sacks allowed", "broken/missed tackles", etc.

And people that know about football know that pressure on a QB makes a difference even if he isn't sacked.  We can argue about how to measure that pressure, but it is ridiculous to say that pressure does not matter unless it results in a sack.