(11-09-2020, 07:20 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: I agree with that part, to a point.  You have to continue to draft and develop OL, but also know when it's time to add a proven veteran to bridge the gap.  Adding a FA or two here and there is a necessary evil, but you really don't want to build your entire OL that way, as it will eat up a ton of cap space.  And, if you go all cheapo FAs on a critical unit like OL, it can turn out worse than drafting poorly.  Those are just my thoughts on the subject.

Yeah, I was just saying to not SOLELY rely on the Draft to build your O-line.

(11-09-2020, 07:20 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: I agree with that part, to a point.  You have to continue to draft and develop OL, but also know when it's time to add a proven veteran to bridge the gap.  Adding a FA or two here and there is a necessary evil, but you really don't want to build your entire OL that way, as it will eat up a ton of cap space.  And, if you go all cheapo FAs on a critical unit like OL, it can turn out worse than drafting poorly.  Those are just my thoughts on the subject.

The Bengals have added three new guys since the offseason who are good pass blockers: XSF, Spain, Finney.
Jonah Williams and Trey Hopkins are also good pass blockers.
Bobby Hart has improved his pass blocking as the season has gone on.

If this team is going to be a pass-oriented offense, they may finally be able to put together a solid pass-blocking OL by season's end. While there's room for improvement at nearly every position on the OL (especially when it comes to run blocking), it at least may not be quite the sieve it was in September. That would reduce the need to heavily invest in new OL in the offseason, especially with there being huge needs on defense too.

(11-10-2020, 03:57 PM)ochocincos Wrote: The Bengals have added three new guys since the offseason who are good pass blockers: XSF, Spain, Finney.
Jonah Williams and Trey Hopkins are also good pass blockers.
Bobby Hart has improved his pass blocking as the season has gone on.

If this team is going to be a pass-oriented offense, they may finally be able to put together a solid pass-blocking OL by season's end. While there's room for improvement at nearly every position on the OL (especially when it comes to run blocking), it at least may not be quite the sieve it was in September. That would reduce the need to heavily invest in new OL in the offseason, especially with there being huge needs on defense too.

That would be awesome, still need to add some OL though in FA in my opinion even if these guys improve.

I want to be great in the trenches not just middle of the pack. Pass rushers and OL need to be addressed.

(11-10-2020, 04:10 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: That would be awesome, still need to add some OL though in FA in my opinion even if these guys improve.

I want to be great in the trenches not just middle of the pack. Pass rushers and OL need to be addressed.

They literally will not have enough cap to get both the OL and DL to "great."

If they go hard on OL in FA, they (likely) will decrease on defense, as it would be expected that WJ3 and Lawson would walk due to being offered more $$ than Cincy could offer. And they lost Dunlap, so that'd be two edge rushers and their best CB gone. You're then hoping you can get two good edge guys and a top-tier CB in the draft, which is a tall task.

Question I guess to ask is...
Which would be better for the team: Top 10 OL but bottom-tier defense (again), or a middle-of-the-pack OL and a middle-of-the-pack (or better) defense?
I lean toward the latter, as I think this offense has shown they can put up points. And if the defense can be improved, the Bengals can hold leads better, ultimately resulting in more wins.

(11-10-2020, 04:25 PM)ochocincos Wrote: They literally will not have enough cap to get both the OL and DL to "great."

If they go hard on OL in FA, they (likely) will decrease on defense, as it would be expected that WJ3 and Lawson would walk due to being offered more $$ than Cincy could offer. And they lost Dunlap, so that'd be two edge rushers and their best CB gone. You're then hoping you can get two good edge guys and a top-tier CB in the draft, which is a tall task.

Question I guess to ask is...
Which would be better for the team: Top 10 OL but bottom-tier defense (again), or a middle-of-the-pack OL and a middle-of-the-pack (or better) defense?
I lean toward the latter, as I think this offense has shown they can put up points. And if the defense can be improved, the Bengals can hold leads better, ultimately resulting in more wins.

Great point, hard to disagree with anything you say here Ocho. Nice post.

Rome wasn't built in a day folks! Where do you have most of your future? The QB, The Franchise, the Tiger King!!!
You have to first ensure his safety against the likes of Pittsburgh, Baltimore, etc....
They can't have a middle of the pack OL moving forward. They have to be the Steelers or Colts or Dallas OL. Top 5 OL....
They still get some DL back next year anyway. They get Reader back along with Wren, and 345 lb. Tupou back who was coming into his own. They'll still have Geno and Hubbard; and Khalid Kareem could be the future at the end spot anyway. And Trae Waynes hasn't played a down and will take over WJIII's spot anyway. They can still draft another DB somewhere in the draft.
So, after they draft an OL in the 1st round, they can get Def players with picks 2-5.
I would fully expect for them to be players in FA for at least 1 RG or RT.
The future of this team is bright, but only if they can keep the Tiger King Upright! :)

So this Quinton Spain guy looks like he was a good pickup. Kind of a Bobbie Williams type.

(11-10-2020, 05:07 PM)JerseyDD09 Wrote: Rome wasn't built in a day folks! Where do you have most of your future? The QB, The Franchise, the Tiger King!!!
You have to first ensure his safety against the likes of Pittsburgh, Baltimore, etc....
They can't have a middle of the pack OL moving forward. They have to be the Steelers or Colts or Dallas OL. Top 5 OL....
They still get some DL back next year anyway. They get Reader back along with Wren, and 345 lb. Tupou back who was coming into his own. They'll still have Geno and Hubbard; and Khalid Kareem could be the future at the end spot anyway. And Trae Waynes hasn't played a down and will take over WJIII's spot anyway. They can still draft another DB somewhere in the draft.
So, after they draft an OL in the 1st round, they can get Def players with picks 2-5.
I would fully expect for them to be players in FA for at least 1 RG or RT.
The future of this team is bright, but only if they can keep the Tiger King Upright! :)

I can understand your logic on most of this except for the bolded. Kareem's whopping 9 tackles with 0 TFLs, 0 sacks, and 0 QB Hits in 8 games played is not making me think he could in any way be the "future" at the end spot. I'm fine keeping Kareem with the last end spot, but in no way should the Bengals bank on him being a major contributor next year.

As you said, they should have some boost with Tupou, Reader, Wren, and Waynes coming back. But ultimately, we don't know if they will play well or not when they finally are back. And if WJ3 leaves, you're basically requiring that a draft pick has to be a starter right out of the gate and play well on top of that. Same for edge if Lawson doesn't re-sign. Lawson and WJ3 are the best players at their position on the team right now. I am all for a CB and edge being drafted, and early, but I think WJ3 and/or Lawson needs to still be retained.

A weird year. Spain is still on PS. No way we could carry him there in a normal year.

(11-10-2020, 04:25 PM)ochocincos Wrote: They literally will not have enough cap to get both the OL and DL to "great."

If they go hard on OL in FA, they (likely) will decrease on defense, as it would be expected that WJ3 and Lawson would walk due to being offered more $$ than Cincy could offer. And they lost Dunlap, so that'd be two edge rushers and their best CB gone. You're then hoping you can get two good edge guys and a top-tier CB in the draft, which is a tall task.

Question I guess to ask is...
Which would be better for the team: Top 10 OL but bottom-tier defense (again), or a middle-of-the-pack OL and a middle-of-the-pack (or better) defense?
I lean toward the latter, as I think this offense has shown they can put up points. And if the defense can be improved, the Bengals can hold leads better, ultimately resulting in more wins.

The Bengals have NFL capable OL bodies on the roster.  What I feel would be most important, at this point, is for them to settle on their 5 to ride or die with.  Allow them to play, grow and develop unity together.  For as basic and brutal as the individual responsibilities of an OL appear to be, the key to success as a unit is quite nuanced and complex, as all 5 need to work in symphony to execute the designed plays.  That symphonic execution comes from playing together, getting to know one another on a close, individual basis.  Learning each other's strengths, weaknesses and intellectual depth.  OL is truly a brotherhood, together they are a powerful force, as individuals they can be defeated more easily.

(11-10-2020, 10:28 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: The Bengals have NFL capable OL bodies on the roster.  What I feel would be most important, at this point, is for them to settle on their 5 to ride or die with.  Allow them to play, grow and develop unity together.  For as basic and brutal as the individual responsibilities of an OL appear to be, the key to success as a unit is quite nuanced and complex, as all 5 need to work in symphony to execute the designed plays.  That symphonic execution comes from playing together, getting to know one another on a close, individual basis.  Learning each other's strengths, weaknesses and intellectual depth.  OL is truly a brotherhood, together they are a powerful force, as individuals they can be defeated more easily.

This sounds like something from a fantasy novel (lol), but I agree with it.
Personally, I would roll with Williams-Spain-Hopkins-XSF-Hart for the rest of the year and then look to maybe replace just one of them in the offseason, but I could see the team still wanting to roll with Jordan since they've had him as the starter at LG for nearly 1.5 seasons. 
If you replace 2-3, you could lack that synergy and the OL will look bad again.

(11-10-2020, 07:50 PM)Yojimbo Wrote: A weird year. Spain is still on PS. No way we could carry him there in a normal year.

I think they will make him active for the max 2 or 4 games (or whatever), THEN they sign him to the active roster; just so they don't have to take someone off the 53 and can have the extra bodies.

(11-11-2020, 11:42 AM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote: I think they will make him active for the max 2 or 4 games (or whatever), THEN they sign him to the active roster; just so they don't have to take someone off the 53 and can have the extra bodies.

They could keep him on the PS for the whole season and just bring him up on game days and then protect him during the week for the rest of the season, right?

(11-11-2020, 11:52 AM)Yojimbo Wrote: They could keep him on the PS for the whole season and just bring him up on game days and then protect him during the week for the rest of the season, right?

I think you can only do that for a max of 2 or 4 games, sadly.

(11-11-2020, 11:56 AM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote: I think you can only do that for a max of 2 or 4 games, sadly.

Yeah I seem to recall there was some limit on that for vets? They can probably just play the rotation game once everybody is healthy and they're out of options on Spain, cut Redmond, sign him to PS, bring him up when needed. I keep forgetting about Finney, too. Might be able to just leave Redmond on the PS until/if there's another injury. Pretty good depth on line when everybody is healthy; Williams, Hart, Johnson, Adeniji, XSF, Spain, Jordan, Hopkins, Finney, Price.

Zach Turner is back. Wouldn’t commit to Spain starting. Says “he’ll help in some way, shape or form.” Looks like he’s going to keep allowing Jordan to get Burrow hit. Really a smart move to make a 4th round OG development as important as the franchise QB’s development.

(11-11-2020, 03:06 PM)Yojimbo Wrote: Zach Turner is back. Wouldn’t commit to Spain starting. Says “he’ll help in some way, shape or form.” Looks like he’s going to keep allowing Jordan to get Burrow hit. Really a smart move to make a 4th round OG development as important as the franchise QB’s development.

WTF?

Spain isn't starting at LG?

He just helped get us the biggest win of the season...

And there it is from Hobson:

“Although he said they would take a look at Su'a-Filo to see if he can go, Taylor didn't sound like he wants to get into a rotation He loves the vet guards Su'a-Filo and Quinton Spain, but it sounds like he's sticking with left guard Michael Jordan and right guard Alex Redmond.”

Neither Spain or XSF will be starting.

(11-10-2020, 06:03 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I can understand your logic on most of this except for the bolded. Kareem's whopping 9 tackles with 0 TFLs, 0 sacks, and 0 QB Hits in 8 games played is not making me think he could in any way be the "future" at the end spot. I'm fine keeping Kareem with the last end spot, but in no way should the Bengals bank on him being a major contributor next year.

As you said, they should have some boost with Tupou, Reader, Wren, and Waynes coming back. But ultimately, we don't know if they will play well or not when they finally are back. And if WJ3 leaves, you're basically requiring that a draft pick has to be a starter right out of the gate and play well on top of that. Same for edge if Lawson doesn't re-sign. Lawson and WJ3 are the best players at their position on the team right now. I am all for a CB and edge being drafted, and early, but I think WJ3 and/or Lawson needs to still be retained.

What you are asking for just isn't possible under next year's salary cap. They already have 2 players on Defense at 100 Million. I'd want Lawson and WJ3 back as well; but, they play positions that are the top tier in Money on Defense. They already have Waynes signed for 4 years at 45 Million. You can't do that with WJ3 as well.
You can sign another OL for much cheaper, and draft another Tackle with the 1st pick, giving Burrow the protection he needs moving forward.
The rest of the picks can come to help the Defense.
I do agree with you somewhat about Kareem. But, let's hold back any sweeping analysis until year 2 in the league. We know that players take big steps in year 2, and he could take off next year.

(11-12-2020, 01:14 PM)Yojimbo Wrote: And there it is from Hobson:

“Although he said they would take a look at Su'a-Filo to see if he can go, Taylor didn't sound like he wants to get into a rotation He loves the vet guards Su'a-Filo and Quinton Spain, but it sounds like he's sticking with left guard Michael Jordan and right guard Alex Redmond.”

Neither Spain or XSF will be starting.

Doesn't really matter who starts, if Jordan and/or Redmond start struggling, they will be replaced forthwith, just like last game.