(11-23-2020, 10:53 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Okay I will answer your question if you will answer mine.

Yes.  I know there are numbers between 0 and 50,

Now tell me the magic number the Bengals coaches should have used as a limit.

I think it would have been reasonable if they limited him to 25 passing attempts per game. Maybe 30. It was simply irresponsible to keep rolling the dice with this offensive line the way they were. 

(11-23-2020, 10:54 AM)Sled21 Wrote: Which is what I said when people were asking why they weren't calling QB sneaks on 3rd and 1 plays. Every time they run that play you risk broken fingers, wrists, etc. It's football, players get hurt. Always have, always will. 

Yep. I'm as upset as anyone about Burrow's injury. But, i also know that our running game with or without Mixon was not good enough to keep Burrow from throwing the ball so much; well, that and Burrow was so damned good at it.

I am at the point that if Zac is not going to bring in an actual OC nor fire Lou, I want him gone as well. But, the fact is there's not much you can do to avoid injury other than just not play.

(11-23-2020, 10:34 AM)fredtoast Wrote: If Taylor had stuck with an ineffective running game when throwing the ball was the only thing that gave us a chance to win you would have been calling for him to get fired for that also.

Everyone here loved that fact that our offense kept us in these close games.  And Burrow was the reason our offense gave us a chance.  If Taylor had shut down the passing games your heads would have exploded.

But that's the thing though man. It's not as much as we don't want the Bengals to do what gives them the best chance to win.

But why...why does BUrrow have to drop back so many times for us to win? We've spent a ton of money on RBs. We've had one of the better dual backs in Gio, and we have an AFC leader in Mixon. So why does running the ball come at such a high cost? 

(11-23-2020, 10:59 AM)PhilHos Wrote: Yep. I'm as upset as anyone about Burrow's injury. But, i also know that our running game with or without Mixon was not good enough to keep Burrow from throwing the ball so much; well, that and Burrow was so damned good at it.

I am at the point that if Zac is not going to bring in an actual OC nor fire Lou, I want him gone as well. But, the fact is there's not much you can do to avoid injury other than just not play.

Exactly. Lot's of great coaches have seen their QB's go down.

(11-23-2020, 10:54 AM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: Zac could have taken precautions via gameplanning and play calling to protect Joe behind an awful Oline but he simply...didn't. He chose not to take those precautions because he knew his best chances of not getting fired were relying on Joe 50 times a game because, as you and Fred have rightly pointed out, that is what was keeping this team and its awful coaching staff close in games that they had no business being in, given their dearth of coaching talent.

So you know exactly what Zac's plans were? How?

More importantly, you saying you'd rather NOT win games? If Burrow throwing the ball gives us a better chance to win, why would you not want to try to win? You would rather keep running the Bratkowski special (run-run-pass-punt) than try to win the game?

You know who would rather risk injury in an attempt to win games instead of playing it safe? Joe Burrow. You honestly think you know football better than Joe Burrow? Child, please.

(11-23-2020, 11:03 AM)PhilHos Wrote: So you know exactly what Zac's plans were? How?

More importantly, you saying you'd rather NOT win games? If Burrow throwing the ball gives us a better chance to win, why would you not want to try to win? You would rather keep running the Bratkowski special (run-run-pass-punt) than try to win the game?

You know who would rather risk injury in an attempt to win games instead of playing it safe? Joe Burrow. You honestly think you know football better than Joe Burrow? Child, please.

His plans were evident. 

I viewed these last 7 games as a test of Burrow and our young players. I didn't care at all if we won any of the games. Going 6-10 and going 2-14 just aren't that different to me. What I did know is that Zac needed to win at least 4 more games to save his career, because he is currently sporting one of the worst (if not the worst, I'd have to check) winning percentages in NFL history. And he knew that Joe was his golden goose that may save his career. So he threw caution to the wind and relied on Joe's arm to save his career. I don't think we needed to be as formulaic as run-run-pass-punt implies, but pass-pass-pass-pass-pass-pass-run-pass-pass-pass-pass-pass-pass-run-pass is not a good formula either.

And it resulted in Joe getting injured.

I'm not going to address your final paragraph.

(11-23-2020, 11:03 AM)PhilHos Wrote: So you know exactly what Zac's plans were? How?

More importantly, you saying you'd rather NOT win games? If Burrow throwing the ball gives us a better chance to win, why would you not want to try to win? You would rather keep running the Bratkowski special (run-run-pass-punt) than try to win the game?

You know who would rather risk injury in an attempt to win games instead of playing it safe? Joe Burrow. You honestly think you know football better than Joe Burrow? Child, please.

I direct the same question I directed to Fred.

Why do we have to pass so many times to win with what we've spent on RBs? 

(11-23-2020, 11:10 AM)THE Bigzoman Wrote: I direct the same question I directed to Fred.

Why do we have to pass so many times to win with what we've spent on RBs? 

Because we don't have good run blocking linemen

(11-23-2020, 10:34 AM)fredtoast Wrote: If Taylor had stuck with an ineffective running game when throwing the ball was the only thing that gave us a chance to win you would have been calling for him to get fired for that also.

Everyone here loved that fact that our offense kept us in these close games.  And Burrow was the reason our offense gave us a chance.  If Taylor had shut down the passing games your heads would have exploded.

The running game worked vs Pittsburgh just a few weeks ago.
But Zac was too stupid to lean on.It and do what the
COWBOYS DID TO A DEFENSE MISSING DEVIN BUSH.
they ran the ball decently vs the Titans. 
Funny JB had a clean jersey the whole game.
A running game protects your QB. Rewind to Big Ben
2004. 

(11-23-2020, 11:08 AM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: His plans were evident. 

In other words, you DON'T know. You only THINK you do. 

(11-23-2020, 11:08 AM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: I viewed these last 7 games as a test of Burrow and our young players. I didn't care at all if we won any of the games. Going 6-10 and going 2-14 just aren't that different to me. 

I, I , I. Are you a member of the Bengals ownership? Then, frankly, no one gives a damn what you think, nor do they give a damn what I think. You can view things however you want, doesn't make them factual or that we all must be beholden to your views, including Zac Taylor.

(11-23-2020, 11:08 AM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: And he knew that Joe was his golden goose that may save his career. So he threw caution to the wind and relied on Joe's arm to save his career.

Trying to win games is a bad thing now? That's what you're saying. Zac needed to win to save his career and so did whatever he could to try to win and you're claiming that's ab ad thing.

(11-23-2020, 11:08 AM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: And it resulted in Joe getting injured.

No, it didn't. 

(11-23-2020, 11:08 AM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: I'm not going to address your final paragraph.

Because it's true.

(11-23-2020, 11:10 AM)THE Bigzoman Wrote: I direct the same question I directed to Fred.

Why do we have to pass so many times to win with what we've spent on RBs? 

Because the pass was working better than the running game. I blame it more on the OL, but the fact was our running game was not consistently good enough to lean on but Burrow was (Steelers/Ravens game notwithstanding). 

(11-23-2020, 11:01 AM)THE Bigzoman Wrote: But why...why does BUrrow have to drop back so many times for us to win? We've spent a ton of money on RBs. We've had one of the better dual backs in Gio, and we have an AFC leader in Mixon. So why does running the ball come at such a high cost? 

Coming into this season the only thing I felt confident about was our running game.

I have no clue what happened.  It is a real head scratcher.

(11-23-2020, 11:08 AM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: His plans were evident. 

I viewed these last 7 games as a test of Burrow and our young players. I didn't care at all if we won any of the games. Going 6-10 and going 2-14 just aren't that different to me. What I did know is that Zac needed to win at least 4 more games to save his career, because he is currently sporting one of the worst (if not the worst, I'd have to check) winning percentages in NFL history. And he knew that Joe was his golden goose that may save his career. So he threw caution to the wind and relied on Joe's arm to save his career. I don't think we needed to be as formulaic as run-run-pass-punt implies, but pass-pass-pass-pass-pass-pass-run-pass-pass-pass-pass-pass-pass-run-pass is not a good formula either.

And it resulted in Joe getting injured.

I'm not going to address your final paragraph.

His plans were indeed evident.  It was to literally destroy Washington.  Realistically, the score could've been 21-7 or even higher.  Zac called a really good game up to that crazy play that isn't the o-line's fault, isn't zac's fault, isn't even Washington's fault.  I guess you could say it's football's fault, perhaps.  

Do you not think every single coach relies on their players to save/keep/advance their careers?  I mean, what in the world are you actually thinking?  I suspect your brain is struggling to process the mega hangover as a result of the devastating injury, but cmon.  Many folks on this board can't stop inventing ways to make ANYTHING Taylor's fault.  He drafted a super impressive and amazing QB #1OA who was ready to start right away.  If he didn't start him or even try limiting his progress, that's when I'd want to show him the door.

https://sports.yahoo.com/the-bengals-failed-joe-burrow-and-the-nfl-is-worse-for-it-045408639.html

(11-23-2020, 10:59 AM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: I think it would have been reasonable if they limited him to 25 passing attempts per game. Maybe 30. It was simply irresponsible to keep rolling the dice with this offensive line the way they were. 

Burrow averaged 36 pass attempts per game this season. 30 is fine, but 36? NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

(11-23-2020, 11:20 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Coming into this season the only thing I felt confident about was our running game.

I have no clue what happened.  It is a real head scratcher.

I agree, Fred.  I was confident on our D based on FA and draft, and our running attack.  Had confidence/excitement in QB play but like most was suspect of the OLINE, and had no idea Tee would go off in his first year like this.  

I suspect the real issue is that the oline seems different week to week.  and not just one player different, seems drastically different.  

But also, we'll never really know just how many run plays Burrow audibled out of either.  Even early on, he has changing things at the line.

(11-23-2020, 11:28 AM)wildcatnku24 Wrote: I agree, Fred.  I was confident on our D based on FA and draft, and our running attack.  Had confidence/excitement in QB play but like most was suspect of the OLINE, and had no idea Tee would go off in his first year like this.  

I suspect the real issue is that the oline seems different week to week.  and not just one player different, seems drastically different.  

But also, we'll never really know just how many run plays Burrow audibled out of either.  Even early on, he has changing things at the line.

Our defense would have been very different this year had Atkins not injured his shoulder, Reader hadn't gotten hurt, Dunlap hadn't mentally checked out, and Waynes had not torn his pec. IMO we were set to have a really good defense and it was devastated by injuries. People always say injuries are not an excuse, but we were hit really hard this year on that side of the ball. Healthy Reader, Atkins, Dunlap and Lawson/Hubbard on the line with Waynes, WJIII and Alexander in the backfield would have been a completely different story.

(11-23-2020, 10:35 AM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: That's true. There are cumulative injuries and there are, for lack of a better term, "freak injuries."

The thing about freak injuries is that they have a chance of occurring on every play. It's usually very small. Let's say there's a 0.0001% chance of a freak injury on any given passing play. Having an awful offensive line would increase that chance and having the other factors I mentioned (like having no running game at all) could increase that chance a bit more.

When you call over 400 passing plays in the first 10 games of a season, you are riding those odds every single play.

So for the first 399 plays, the bad Oline+no run game+rookies don't get calls from refs+defensive players like to teach rookies a lesson chance of having a freak accident didn't occur.

But when you roll a dice over and over and over again, eventually you're going to roll the number you've been fretting.

Do you know what I mean?

This bothers me in many aspects of life, as people commonly misunderstand how statistics and probability works.  You do realize that, using your .0001% figure, for every one of those 400 plays, the percentage chance would still be that .0001% right?  If you were to coach with that mentality, you're playing to not lose, which I believe is one of those lies we like to say Zac's doing.  But of course, it must fit our agenda right?

(11-23-2020, 11:18 AM)PhilHos Wrote: I, I , I. Are you a member of the Bengals ownership? Then, frankly, no one gives a damn what you think, nor do they give a damn what I think.

Then why are any of us here on this message board?

Seems kinda odd to remind someone on a message board that, big picture, none of our opinions really matter.  We're all here to have discussions about a team we follow and support.  He was sharing his thoughts just like everyone else does here. We're here to share opinions.

If everyone believed in your sentiment then this board wouldn't even exist.  If you believe in it, then why are you here?

(11-23-2020, 10:51 AM)fredtoast Wrote: You want to know the quickest way to run Joe Burrow out of town.  Have the coach tell him they are not going to let him throw the ball enough to give the Bengals a chance to win.

You just can't do that to a guy as competitive as Burrow.

I'll be honest, I've been on the side that we are increasing chances of this type of injury to Burrow by letting him get hit so much.. but this is a good point.