(12-14-2020, 05:51 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Also worth noting that since Lawson became the starter in Week 5, he has 6 solo tackles, 1 TFL, 1.0 sack, and 0 FF in 9 games.

In the 4 weeks before he became the starter, he had 7 solo tackles, 2 TFL, 3.5 sacks, and 1 FF.

The more he plays, the less you get in return. Carl Lawson just isn't a starter. That's not even touching injury concerns.

But look at Dunlap since leaving. It’s possible at least to some degree Lou is holding these guys back.

(12-14-2020, 04:38 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: This is ridiculous. You are comparing him to two of the premier pass rushers in the league. Nobody is claiming Hubbard is that.

Thats just it. We fans need to expect more out of our players.
Is it a league rule that that says the Bengals cannot have
Some elite production out of the DE spot?
I look up at and I see 4 wins in 2 years. 
If you have only 4 wins in 2 years there is issue with coaching 
Scheme and talent. 

(12-14-2020, 05:55 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: But look at Dunlap since leaving. It’s possible at least to some degree Lou is holding these guys back.

Oh, I 100% agree that it is quite possible/probable that's at least some of it.

I just don't think you can pay guys on the hope that's they are everything you hope for so long as you get a new DC. That sounds like a trainwreck waiting to happen if/when it turns out it wasn't just Lou.

I also am not sure how realistic a 1 year turnaround is for this team after Zac & Co shit all over it for 2 years... so I am thinking all the resources they have should just go towards making Burrow protected. If having a talent-deficient defense for a year is the price it takes to get Joe Thuney and Corey Linsley in FA protecting Joe Burrow, I am willing to roll with that. Don't like the idea of spending large $ in order to keep together a bad defense while the OL needs so much attention.

(12-14-2020, 02:20 PM)Synric Wrote: Both these guys are having solid years on a poor team in contract years.

Carl Lawson is proving he is a 3 down player and while only having 5 sacks he is applying pressure because he is top 5 in the league in QB Hits.

William Jackson is allowing just slightly above a 50% allowed catch percentage and has the same for his career. He has also cleaned up his tackling and become a solid outside run defender.

I have seen some people thinking these two will get less than 10m a year in free agency but I don't agree. WJ3 will be one of the best corners on the open market because of his under 30 age and his play.  Teams will are always looking for good pass rushers that can also play the run.

My estimate is 10 to 12m a year for Carl Lawson and 12 to 14m a year for WJ3.

I honestly thought William Jackson was going to be one of my favourites , but man he frustrates the hell out of me sometimes.

He has the tools to be a pro bowl corner but he has so few interceptions and he's arguably been the worst run defender on the team throughout his career.

He has played pretty good this year with zero pass rush and to be honest right now he is the only genuine CB1 option on the team so giving him the deal might be as much about having limited other options

But he could be just the sort of guy the Bengals way overpay only to see him underwhelm , get injured over the next 2-3 years.

(12-14-2020, 06:02 PM)impactplaya Wrote: Thats just it. We fans need to expect more out of our players.
Is it a league rule that that says the Bengals cannot have
Some elite production out of the DE spot?
I look up at and I see 4 wins in 2 years. 
If you have only 4 wins in 2 years there is issue with coaching 
Scheme and talent. 

We got by for years without elite talent on the end because Geno was so good. Now we need to completely rebuild the DL.

(12-14-2020, 05:51 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Also worth noting that since Lawson became the starter in Week 5, he has 6 solo tackles, 1 TFL, 1.0 sack, and 0 FF in 9 games.

In the 4 weeks before he became the starter, he had 7 solo tackles, 2 TFL, 3.5 sacks, and 1 FF.

The more he plays, the less you get in return. Carl Lawson just isn't a starter. That's not even touching injury concerns.

He is 6th in total pressures this season. The guy is a starter it's not his fault the team can't rush the passer.

(12-14-2020, 06:03 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Oh, I 100% agree that it is quite possible/probable that's at least some of it.

I just don't think you can pay guys on the hope that's they are everything you hope for so long as you get a new DC. That sounds like a trainwreck waiting to happen if/when it turns out it wasn't just Lou.

I also am not sure how realistic a 1 year turnaround is for this team after Zac & Co shit all over it for 2 years... so I am thinking all the resources they have should just go towards making Burrow protected. If having a talent-deficient defense for a year is the price it takes to get Joe Thuney and Corey Linsley in FA protecting Joe Burrow, I am willing to roll with that. Don't like the idea of spending large $ in order to keep together a bad defense while the OL needs so much attention.

Can’t argue with that.

(12-14-2020, 06:12 PM)J24 Wrote: He is 6th in total pressures this season. The guy is a starter it's not his fault the team can't rush the passer.

Pressures are good and all, but if you can't ever finish the job, it's pointless.

His season high QB Hits game was against Pittsburgh. He had 0 sacks, 0 TFL, 0 FF, and 1 solo tackle. They lost 10-36. 

I reiterate. In the 9 games since he became the starter... 1 sack, 6 solo tackles, 1 TFL, 0 FF. A guy who can't produce anything as a starter other than close-but-no-cigar moments isn't a good starter. Coming close isn't a tangible difference maker. It's a consolation prize.

(12-14-2020, 06:22 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Pressures are good and all, but if you can't ever finish the job, it's pointless.

Coming close isn't a tangible difference maker

100% bullshit.

FootballOutsiders and other stats sites do comparison studies of QBs "under pressure" and "not under pressure".

The QB numbers always fall when under pressure even if there is no sack.


It is amazing some of the stuff people around here will make up just to justify shitting on a Bengal player.

Franchise WJ3. Would probably let Lawson walk. Not interested in a big money injury risk. But doing that would probably mean our front office would be playing the comp pick game and wouldn’t be willing to spend on an outside free agent if it meant losing the high comp pick losing Lawson would net.

(12-14-2020, 06:22 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Pressures are good and all, but if you can't ever finish the job, it's pointless.

His season high QB Hits game was against Pittsburgh. He had 0 sacks, 0 TFL, 0 FF, and 1 solo tackle. They lost 10-36. 

I reiterate. In the 9 games since he became the starter... 1 sack, 6 solo tackles, 1 TFL, 0 FF. A guy who can't produce anything as a starter other than close-but-no-cigar moments isn't a good starter. Coming close isn't a tangible difference maker. It's a consolation prize.

The Bengals lead NFL in.the almost category.
They almost sack the QB. They almost come up.with a INT
I watched Carl Lawson almost hit Andy Daltons arm.
The play resulted in  3rd conversion to keep a drive alive
Or it could have been a TD.Im.not sure.
But he ALMOST got to QB so it matters right?  
Joe Burrow almost completed TDs to Green.and Ross on opening day.
Drew Sample almost caught a pass in.the redzone but got punked.
The teams that go.to.the playoffs have finishers.
The Bengals.dont. Anybody wanna debate that?

(12-14-2020, 06:54 PM)impactplaya Wrote: The Bengals lead NFL in.the almost category.
They almost sack the QB. They almost come up.with a INT
I watched Carl Lawson almost hit Andy Daltons arm.
The play resulted in  3rd conversion to keep a drive alive
Or it could have been a TD.Im.not sure.
But he ALMOST got to QB so it matters right?  
Joe Burrow almost completed TDs to Green.and Ross on opening day.
Drew Sample almost caught a pass in.the redzone but got punked.
The teams that go.to.the playoffs have finishers.
The Bengals.dont. Anybody wanna debate that?

As a Bengal fan I almost want to. I sat next to Andre at a Chinese buffet one time. You ever seen a buffet get finished?

(12-14-2020, 06:22 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Pressures are good and all, but if you can't ever finish the job, it's pointless.

His season high QB Hits game was against Pittsburgh. He had 0 sacks, 0 TFL, 0 FF, and 1 solo tackle. They lost 10-36. 

I reiterate. In the 9 games since he became the starter... 1 sack, 6 solo tackles, 1 TFL, 0 FF. A guy who can't produce anything as a starter other than close-but-no-cigar moments isn't a good starter. Coming close isn't a tangible difference maker. It's a consolation prize.

Steve Spagnuolo the Chiefs defensive coordinator defended Frank Clark's play this year citing while he wasn't racking up sack stats he was consistently pressuring the QB and that's exactly why the signed him. 

Frank Clark is making high end rusher money 20 to 25m cap hits every year. I was suggesting Carl Lawson is worth half that at 12m. 

(12-14-2020, 06:54 PM)impactplaya Wrote: The teams that go.to.the playoffs have finishers.
The Bengals.dont. Anybody wanna debate that?

The Titans are going to the playoffs and they have fewer sacks than the Bengals.




And if you think pressuring the QB is "pointless" if there is no sack than you are just stupid about football.

(12-14-2020, 07:41 PM)fredtoast Wrote: The Titans are going to the playoffs and they have fewer sacks than the Bengals.




And if you think pressuring the QB is "pointless" if there is no sack than you are just stupid about football.

Yes, because they have the 3rd overall and 4th scoring offense.

Meanwhile they have the 26th overall 21st scoring defense. Maybe if they had more sacks, they wouldn't have the 29th ranked passing defense. They're lucky they play in the 2nd worst division in 2020.

Hurray Fred Stats!

(12-14-2020, 07:47 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Yes, because they have the 3rd overall and 4th scoring offense.

Meanwhile they have the 26th overall 21st scoring defense. Maybe if they had more sacks, they wouldn't have the 29th ranked passing defense. They're lucky they play in the 2nd worst division in 2020.

Hurray Fred Stats!

Keep moving the goalposts every time I prove you guys wrong.


I'll keep repeating it for those of you who can't keep track of my original point.  .  .  People who think pressuring the QB is meaningless unless there is a sack are just stupid about football.  as proof i will point to all the statistical analysis of QBs "under pressure" compared to "not under pressure".

it is amazing the stupid stuff some fans will say just to shit on a Bengal player.  

(12-14-2020, 07:54 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Keep moving the goalposts every time I prove you guys wrong.


I'll keep repeating it for those of you who can't keep track of my original point.  .  .  People who think pressuring the QB is meaningless unless there is a sack are just stupid about football.  as proof i will point to all the statistical analysis of QBs "under pressure" compared to "not under pressure".

it is amazing the stupid stuff some fans will say just to shit on a Bengal player.  

My question is: Who determines if a QB is under pressure? 

(12-14-2020, 08:08 PM)bfine32 Wrote: My question is: Who determines if a QB is under pressure? 

QB1 is perspiring... next gen stats...

For all of those worried that we will have to give "max" deals to guys like Lawson and Jackson this offseason? I don't think so, Scooter. There are currently 10 teams looking at having a salary cap deficit heading into the 2021 off season. The market is going to be flooded with players, and many of them will be signing deals significantly lower than what we've become used to seeing.

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/cap/2021/

We’re in a tough spot, we might end up spending a lot of money on a defense that still might not be good. Wayne’s is making good money ,WJ3 and Alexander are both free agents, Bates needs to be resigned , we paid Bell and he hasn’t been great. Lawson needs an extension, Hubbards contract is coming up, Atkins is making good money and Reader is the highest paid NT in the league. Getting a new DC will help but this defense sucked under Marvin and Austin plus if Tobin is still the GM not sure if he can get the right talent / coach.