(01-05-2021, 01:59 AM)Murdock2420 Wrote: A well led team wouldn't commit the dumb penalties of the 2015 playoff team.

A well led team wouldn't crumble in high pressure situations over and over.

A well led team wouldn't shit it's own pants at the sight of it's divisional rival over and over.

A well led team doesn't fail to get out of the first round of the playoffs.

Marvin was not a leader.

A well led team wins more than 6 games in 2 years.  

Marvin was 10 times the leader Taylor will ever be.  What he accomplished working under the handicap of Mike Brown's ownership was very impressive.

(01-05-2021, 02:15 AM)fredtoast Wrote: A well led team wins more than 6 games in 2 years.  

Marvin was 10 times the leader Taylor will ever be.  What he accomplished working under the handicap of Mike Brown's ownership was very impressive.

ML had some good seasons, and honestly the 2005 and 2015 teams were the best I've seen ( I was like 6 when we went to SB last ).  That 2005 season was.... ugh... nevermind it's still too soon.

(01-05-2021, 12:11 AM)Sled21 Wrote: I really don't have a clue what Taylor did before he came here, and don't care. He has held the locker room through some really rough stretches, and the players still believe in him. (I don't buy that players like Burrow, Boyd, Bernard and Hubbard are parroting the front office and are too sheepish to speak their true minds)

Some people believe in Santa, but who am I to say you or them are wrong ? 

(01-05-2021, 03:16 AM)GodFather Wrote: Some people believe in Santa, but who am I to say you or them are wrong ? 

Totally similar things.  Well done

(01-05-2021, 02:15 AM)fredtoast Wrote: A well led team wins more than 6 games in 2 years.  

Marvin was 10 times the leader Taylor will ever be.  What he accomplished working under the handicap of Mike Brown's ownership was very impressive.

Marvin was 10 times the talent evaluator, that is for certain but he is not a leader.

He had more talent then Taylor has had at any point, he had more talent then any of the teams in the 90's and he produced 0.. again 0, once more absolutely zero wins in the postseason. His teams constantly played terrible in the most important moments, prime-time and rivalry games.

That is not a well led team or a good leader.

Fred you have zero argument here, Taylor did something with a 3rd string QB that Merv couldn't do with Carson ***** Palmer. He won, in primetime against Pitt.

Honestly, his record sucks, but that game alone gives me hope he can get it done if they give him the quality of talent Marvin had.

The 2020 New York Giants were just about the worst in the NFL at everything offensively:

31st scoring offense
31st total offense
31st passing touchdowns
29th passing yards
31st points per drive
4 games scoring single digits

Their QB played like shit for 90% year, they lost their stud RB in game 2, and their o-line ranked next to last in pass block win rate (even worse than the Bengals line).

Yet somehow, Joe Judge was able to win as many games in his 1st season as Zac has in his first 2 years. Some like to use the excuse of Covid, no real preseason, etc when it comes to Zac, but Judge had to deal with all that as a rookie HC.

Then you look at Anthony Lynn in LA (who was 33-31 with them, and had a PO win) - some of the reasons mentioned for not retaining him were game management issues, close losses, loyalty to underperforming staff, and being slow to make personnel changes. It's pretty easy to make the case that all those things apply to Zac, yet he still has a job. 

(01-05-2021, 05:23 AM)Bengalholic Wrote: The 2020 New York Giants were just about the worst in the NFL at everything offensively:

31st scoring offense
31st total offense
31st passing touchdowns
29th passing yards
31st points per drive
4 games scoring single digits

Their QB played like shit for 90% year, they lost their stud RB in game 2, and their o-line ranked next to last in pass block win rate (even worse than the Bengals line).

Yet somehow, Joe Judge was able to win as many games in his 1st season as Zac has in his first 2 years. Some like to use the excuse of Covid, no real preseason, etc when it comes to Zac, but Judge had to deal with all that as a rookie HC.

Then you look at Anthony Lynn in LA (who was 33-31 with them, and had a PO win) - some of the reasons mentioned for not retaining him were game management issues, close losses, loyalty to underperforming staff, and being slow to make personnel changes. It's pretty easy to make the case that all those things apply to Zac, yet he still has a job. 

I'm amazed myself that he has a job honestly.

I really wanted the Saints O-coordinator here but we are stuck with him for another season.

The thing is now, we really need him to break the trend. He has to perform because if he fails, this team is in deep trouble.

He fails again, that is year 2 of Burrow wasted.

That means a new coach gets hired for 2022, and I don't have the stats but it has to be very very rare for a coach to come in take over a team and make it to the playoffs. I know it has happened, but if Taylor gets fired, this team probably has 6 or less wins and I can't imagine many teams that have 6 wins, get a new coach and jump to the playoffs.

So now, we are looking at 2023 before we would compete, year 4 of Burrow's rookie contract. First time in the playoffs, probably not going the distance, but hey it could happen. More likely it would be 2024 for a deeper run.

Now, it's 2024 and there is hope for a deep run. This is also the one year to do it, since after this the rookie contract is gone and the pay for your QB goes up if he plays the way he did to start this season. So now you have to pay your QB and start having cap casualties around the team.

I guess at this point I'm defending Taylor a little because I want to believe that this team will be relevant before 2023. If I just accept the record, and all the trends, then there is no point in watching, having a message board, going to a game or wearing Bengals gear again till 2023.... that is a brutal thought.

(01-05-2021, 12:11 AM)Sled21 Wrote: I really don't have a clue what Taylor did before he came here, and don't care. He has held the locker room through some really rough stretches, and the players still believe in him. (I don't buy that players like Burrow, Boyd, Bernard and Hubbard are parroting the front office and are too sheepish to speak their true minds)

Considering the ineptitude on the field i agree he has kept them playing hard - must take an insane level of belief / thick skin on ZT's part.

I will say he also benefitted somewhat from Marvin here. 

He equally never lost the locker room from what i saw and the core group of AD, AJ, Gio, Atkins, Boyd, etc carried over that stability into the start of ZT era.

After this off season's roster churn it will be ZT's locker room more than ever...for better or worse.

(01-05-2021, 01:35 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Only problem is that the locker room does not believe in our coaches.

Dunlap already bailed on them.

Jesse Bates called them out for poor communication skills last year.

Shawn Williams and Darius Phillips accused them of "wasting talent" on social media.

Uh, Dunlap checked out from the day he got kicked out of the park. He didn't want to be here and not be able to just play in a 4-3, so he quit on the team.
Jesse Bates was referring to Anarumo. This thread is about being a HC.
Shawn Williams was demoted from Starting Safety to basically Special Teams..... yeah, he's gonna be happy.

The heart of the team....Burrow, Mixon, Boyd, Bernard, Hubbard, .... they all have come out in support.  

(01-05-2021, 12:11 AM)Sled21 Wrote: I really don't have a clue what Taylor did before he came here, and don't care. He has held the locker room through some really rough stretches, and the players still believe in him. (I don't buy that players like Burrow, Boyd, Bernard and Hubbard are parroting the front office and are too sheepish to speak their true minds)

has he? seemed some wanted out...  These guys play hard cause if they dont they wont get paid next year.

(01-05-2021, 10:29 AM)Sled21 Wrote: Uh, Dunlap checked out from the day he got kicked out of the park. He didn't want to be here and not be able to just play in a 4-3, so he quit on the team.
Jesse Bates was referring to Anarumo. This thread is about being a HC.
Shawn Williams was demoted from Starting Safety to basically Special Teams..... yeah, he's gonna be happy.

The heart of the team....Burrow, Mixon, Boyd, Bernard, Hubbard, .... they all have come out in support.  

These guys would play hard no matter who the head coach is.
Taylor knows if he doesnt get this team to the playoffs in 2021
Hes done in Cincy. And he is done as a NFL head coach.
He so far is just another Freddie Kitchens Steve Wilks clone

(01-05-2021, 11:05 AM)XenoMorph Wrote:
has he? seemed some wanted out...  These guys play hard cause if they dont they wont get paid next year.

Dunlap and Ross.  So basically Dunlap.

Remember ZT's comical attempt at leadership when he tried to rally the troops after he got the franchise's knee shredded? Real braveheart shit right there and the team responded...

(01-05-2021, 11:18 AM)Big_Ern Wrote: Remember ZT's comical attempt at leadership when he tried to rally the troops after he got the franchise's knee shredded? Real braveheart shit right there and the team responded...

Why was that comical?  God forbid a head coach try to fire up his team after the most devastating thing possible happens.  

“The team responded” - so basically you mean that since we didn’t win or do well after that, the team didn’t respond to Zac’s speech.  So Ryan Finley should’ve basically been plug and play for Burrow, you’re saying.  

I honestly don’t think some of you folks would be happy with any head coach unless they go 16-0.  

1.) Who in the hell are Jim and Pat? (I can't be the only one who doesn't know who OP is referring to)

2.) What is the point of this thread?

Guys on some podcast claim to be a good Head Coach you need to be a great leader? No shit, Sherlock. Where is the evidence that Zac is a great leader?

(01-04-2021, 11:02 PM)Sled21 Wrote: I close to verbatim as I can remember them saying.... "If you aren't good at offensive or defensive playcalling, it doesn't matter, because you can learn those things. What is important is being able to lead a locker room and get them to believe in you. You can be an offensive or defensive genius, but if you cannot lead men then stay a coordinator, because you will fail as a head coach."

Kinda what I said the other day about coaches can get better. It's being able to get a team to buy in that's important.

So blast away, Jim and Pat agree with me.  

I agree with that statement that that is important, but record is the most important.
Players may believe in you and buy into your vision, but if you're not putting out results year after year, it's going to affect revenue/interest.
Fans want to see their team get into the playoffs and ideally win in the playoffs.

Taylor needs to get this team to .500 or above in 2021. No more excuses.

(01-05-2021, 11:51 AM)wildcatnku24 Wrote: Why was that comical?  God forbid a head coach try to fire up his team after the most devastating thing possible happens.  

“The team responded” - so basically you mean that since we didn’t win or do well after that, the team didn’t respond to Zac’s speech.  So Ryan Finley should’ve basically been plug and play for Burrow, you’re saying.  

I honestly don’t think some of you folks would be happy with any head coach unless they go 16-0.  

That's a flippant, far reaching statement. No, posters are just asking to be rid of a coach who has gone 6-25-1. There is nothing to be happy about with that record.

(01-05-2021, 11:51 AM)wildcatnku24 Wrote: Why was that comical?  God forbid a head coach try to fire up his team after the most devastating thing possible happens.  

“The team responded” - so basically you mean that since we didn’t win or do well after that, the team didn’t respond to Zac’s speech.  So Ryan Finley should’ve basically been plug and play for Burrow, you’re saying.  

I honestly don’t think some of you folks would be happy with any head coach unless they go 16-0.  

Because it looked like a kid having a temper trantum. No one was paying attention. It was tone deaf honestly. Trying to mask all the bad decisions he allowed to get the team to that moment, all of which were his fault. Thinking yelling at some team that just watched your poor decisions potentially ruin the franchise savior was going to pump them up. They then proceeded to get curb stomped and no one looked into the game at all. Any questions? Maybe you were pumped up 

(01-05-2021, 11:59 AM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: 1.) Who in the hell are Jim and Pat?  (I can't be the only one who doesn't know who OP is referring to)

2.) What is the point of this thread?

Guys on some podcast claim to be a good Head Coach you need to be a great leader?  No shit, Sherlock.  Where is the evidence that Zac is a great leader?

That "some podcast" is actually the NFL channel on Sirius.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pat_Kirwan

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Miller_(quarterback)

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Taylor needs to get this team to .500 or above in 2021. No more excuses.

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Injuries permitting, Zac could still be back for 2022. How do we know that 5 wins isn't the "bullish" total for the Mike and Co to still believe in the foundations that Zac's building?? Mike could still use those injuries as saying Reader, Alexander etc are basically like new free agents since they didn't play much, and not invest as we hope