(02-14-2021, 12:16 PM)samhain Wrote: Those defenses killed Burrow because they had both the talent and scheme to throw several blitz packages at him that this o-line in no way had the talent (or coaching) to deal with.  Baltimore was bringing safeties that were running free at the quarterback.  The right side was Watt's *****, to absolutely no one's surprise, as Hart has always gotten smoked by any speed rusher.

Everything should not be predicated on Burrow getting the ball out as fast as possible.  I'd much rather give the quarterback more time than weapons.  With more time, a passer (especially one like Joey B) that can see the plays develop will be able to win without an arsenal of receivers.  

If we're honest here, this team isn't really hurting at the WR position.  Even as AJ declined, you had 2 prime targets develop in Boyd and Tee.  How many high-end receivers do we expect to have?  I want 5 or 6, lol.  Unfortunately when it comes to roster building, that will detract from positions of major need like DE, DT, and most importantly OL.  CB is also in the mix.  

If I had to bet money, I would bet a lot that Chase is gong to be a Bengal.  I think between Mikey's love of high-end WRs and Joe's seeming desire to reunite with him, it's practically baked into the cake barring him murdering someone or sustaining a major injury.  I'm probably going to be excited about it, but I still see it as a luxury pick when there are so many other needs.  

At the end of the day, this is a shitty roster.  It's most glaring problem has gone unresolved for 5 seasons.  Taking a 1st overall quarterback when you are at a point of needing one is an excuse not to address the o-line with an early pick.  Taking a WR when you have a shot at the top OL in the draft is definitely not. 

Another thing to consider: last week in the SB, we saw a favored team (KC) get beat like rented mules.  Some might blame Mahomes, but even under duress, he was putting the ball in places where his receivers could make plays.  KC had all of their vaunted targets healthy.  They had the best WR in the NFL in Tyreek Hill.  The best TE in Kelce.  Two excellent compliments in Watkins and Hardman.  On top of that they had CEH and Bell, both capable receivers in the backfield.  They also have one of if not the most physically gifted quarterback ever to play the game, and a guy that's been there and won before.  So why did they lose despite having the best arsenal of weapons and best QB in the league?  Could it be because both starting tackles were out?  That alone should illustrate the importance of o-line vs weapons.  The best of the best in terms of weapons is worthless without a group that can pass block.  No team got anywhere in the playoffs without a line that could do it reasonably well.

There is a lot here.  First off, I agree that "everything should not be predicated on Burrow getting the ball out quickly".   There are, however, situations that need a quick option.  Look at the 2nd Cleveland game and how they had screens set up to defeat the blitz.  It was like "where has this been"? And one other thing this offense has clearly lacked is the big play.  A WR that can burn you deep and take the proverbial top off the defense is critical for those big plays.  They often happen when blitzes are picked up.  Balt and pitt didn't get home every pass rush, but their coverage forced Burrow to hold the ball too long.  They need a weapon that can defeat that coverage better, and faster.


I disagree that this is a shitty roster.  I believe it had some shitty position groups, and the offensive line and interior of the defensive line were most glaring.  Your LBs and CBs will look poor when you have no interior pass rush.  I think a few additions and a couple returning players will make a huge difference next year.  

As far as the Super Bowl goes, I am not going to base much on that as I think KC was beat up on the offensive line and had a horrible game plan.  The one thing you seem to fail to grasp is that a weapon like Chase does change the way a defense has to defend you.  Boyd and Higgins do not do that.  They are really good WRs, but neither of them is like Chase.  Not many people are.  He can force safeties back, which also helps the rushing attack.  

I am not saying to ignore the Offensive line, as I gave another thread that added detail about what else would come with either player, but I still think this team won't go anywhere without a true #1 that scares defenses.  

(02-14-2021, 12:16 PM)samhain Wrote: Another thing to consider: last week in the SB, we saw a favored team (KC) get beat like rented mules.  Some might blame Mahomes, but even under duress, he was putting the ball in places where his receivers could make plays.  KC had all of their vaunted targets healthy.  They had the best WR in the NFL in Tyreek Hill.  The best TE in Kelce.  Two excellent compliments in Watkins and Hardman.  On top of that they had CEH and Bell, both capable receivers in the backfield.  They also have one of if not the most physically gifted quarterback ever to play the game, and a guy that's been there and won before.  So why did they lose despite having the best arsenal of weapons and best QB in the league?  Could it be because both starting tackles were out?  That alone should illustrate the importance of o-line vs weapons.  The best of the best in terms of weapons is worthless without a group that can pass block.  No team got anywhere in the playoffs without a line that could do it reasonably well.

I agree with your overall point, but just wanted to say I strongly disagree with the bolded part.

Hill is explosive and dangerous, but I wouldn't call him the best WR in the NFL. I could see arguments for him being as high as 5th, but there's at least 4 that are firmly above him.

Julio Jones
DeAndre Hopkins
Mike Evans
Michael Thomas

Probably in that order, followed by Tyreek Hill. 

(We'll see if Stefon Diggs, Justin Jefferson, and DJ Metcalf repeat their breakouts before worrying about ranking them up there, I don't like ranking guys based off 1 year.)

I'm old school.  I firmly believe the most successful teams are built from the inside out.  Give me Sewell all day everyday if this option is presented to us.  

(02-01-2021, 11:14 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: I am curious to the opinions of the board if both Sewell and Chase are available at #5.  I didn't include a trade down option because of the specifics needed and not knowing who would be available later.

I voted Chase.  I see him as a future HOF talent and we lost that with Green.  I think he would make everything on the offense work better. There are still tackles that could be there at the top of Rd 2 that would be instant starters on the right side.  Thoughts?

Hey SHRacerX,voting for CHASE makes you a extremely smart man. This guy is the top receiver in the draft and he will be sitting there for us to take and PFF also voted to take him over Sewell as they believe we will get the Joe guy in FA as no one will be outbidding us.We have the cap space to get him and we will not be after Sewell. Take the wr that scores points.This draft is loaded with top O-linemen and we can grab one in rounds 2 and on.Joe Burrow wants Chase and with him added to the receiver room we will be lethal.I so hope the brass goes after him,but I believe the Jets are wanting him as well.We shall see.I would jump ahead of the Jets if necessary.We need a top wide receiver and Chase is the best in this draft.Also,its been our experience with linemen from the west coast as not very good,Also of times they get homesick and for what ever reason,they fail coming here. I want Chase as he will be a game changer and will score POINTS,Good pick SHRacerX.

(02-15-2021, 03:45 PM)fortyyearfan Wrote: Hey SHRacerX,voting for CHASE makes you a extremely smart man. This guy is the top receiver in the draft and he will be sitting there for us to take and PFF also voted to take him over Sewell as they believe we will get the Joe guy in FA as no one will be outbidding us.We have the cap space to get him and we will not be after Sewell. Take the wr that scores points.This draft is loaded with top O-linemen and we can grab one in rounds 2 and on.Joe Burrow wants Chase and with him added to the receiver room we will be lethal.I so hope the brass goes after him,but I believe the Jets are wanting him as well.We shall see.I would jump ahead of the Jets if necessary.We need a top wide receiver and Chase is the best in this draft.Also,its been our experience with linemen from the west coast as not very good,Also of times they get homesick and for what ever reason,they fail coming here. I want Chase as he will be a game changer and will score POINTS,Good pick SHRacerX.

You want us to trade UP for a WR?? Yikes. I like Chase a lot myself, but that’s just an absolutely terrible idea. If we’re set on adding a top WR and Chase is gone just grab Smith or Waddle.

(02-15-2021, 03:45 PM)fortyyearfan Wrote: Hey SHRacerX,voting for CHASE makes you a extremely smart man. This guy is the top receiver in the draft and he will be sitting there for us to take and PFF also voted to take him over Sewell as they believe we will get the Joe guy in FA as no one will be outbidding us.We have the cap space to get him and we will not be after Sewell. Take the wr that scores points.This draft is loaded with top O-linemen and we can grab one in rounds 2 and on.Joe Burrow wants Chase and with him added to the receiver room we will be lethal.I so hope the brass goes after him,but I believe the Jets are wanting him as well.We shall see.I would jump ahead of the Jets if necessary.We need a top wide receiver and Chase is the best in this draft.Also,its been our experience with linemen from the west coast as not very good,Also of times they get homesick and for what ever reason,they fail coming here. I want Chase as he will be a game changer and will score POINTS,Good pick SHRacerX.

Thanks for the kind words, 40, but I wouldn't say it makes me extremely smart.  Not being a steeler fan does that :)

Can you imagine an offseason where they re-sign Lawson, WJIII, and add Thuney AND Moton and draft Chase?  It isn't inconceivable.  And I think they would really surprise some folks if they did (I don't mean surprise them that they took those actions, but would be a very competitive team).

(02-15-2021, 01:29 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: I agree with your overall point, but just wanted to say I strongly disagree with the bolded part.

Hill is explosive and dangerous, but I wouldn't call him the best WR in the NFL. I could see arguments for him being as high as 5th, but there's at least 4 that are firmly above him.

Julio Jones
DeAndre Hopkins
Mike Evans
Michael Thomas

Probably in that order, followed by Tyreek Hill. 

(We'll see if Stefon Diggs, Justin Jefferson, and DJ Metcalf repeat their breakouts before worrying about ranking them up there, I don't like ranking guys based off 1 year.)

Yeah, I should have worded that differently.  You left out Adams and Godwin, too.  Either way, the point is that Tyreek is the kind of player you'd expect Chase to be if you drafted him over an OT, ie a stud number 1 receiver that takes the top off of defenses.  I think we'd all be happy to have Chase if we could see into the future and the future was Tyreek Hill caliber production and measurables.

I see alot of people that say get the tackle in the second round but I can easily see Sewell, Darrisaw, Slater, Cosmi, Eichenberg, Mayfield, Jenkins all go in round one.

That leaves Dillon Radunz and Alex Leatherwood and both of them look like their Pro future will be at Guard.

(02-16-2021, 11:42 AM)Synric Wrote: I see alot of people that say get the tackle in the second round but I can easily see Sewell, Darrisaw, Slater, Cosmi, Eichenberg, Mayfield, Jenkins all go in round one.

That leaves Dillon Radunz and Alex Leatherwood and both of them look like their Pro future will be at Guard.

I could see them all being gone by the time we pick in the 2nd.  I'd rather have the pick of the litter at 5 than wait for the guy that falls.

That's my main issue with picking a WR.  It just gums up the whole works when it comes to positions of need.  

Take a WR n 1.  Now you need a RT in 2.  Now you wait til 3 or 4 to get a DE, DT, or corner, all of which are likely needs.  

This is moot if free agency is aggressive on the OL, but honestly I see WRs on the market and others that are likely cuts that could be had for very reasonable deals vs what the quality OTs/Gs will demand.  Tyrell Williams and John Brown are one-trick ponies, but they can do the one trick that this offense badly needs.  Then there's a guy like Emmanuel Sanders, that's mega-dependable and also likely reasonable, though not the speed merchant we seek.  You could get 2 of those guys for the cost of a tackle and throw in Kyle Rudolph if he gets cut and still have money to burn.  

WRs are just not as tough to find as they once were, and with 2 quality ones already on the roster, I'd rather supplement there n FA and invest the 5th in a top-end tackle on a rookie deal.  

(02-14-2021, 10:36 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: While I have high praise for Burrow's abilities to read the defense and get the ball out quick, we saw how he struggled (and it wasn't just the line) against pitt and baltimore.  Those two teams had defenses deep enough to take away Higgins and Boyd and the routes would take too long to develop.  We have a lot of guys that run good routes and have really good hands, but (IMHO) we need that one ace to make it all work.  

The two best offenses (that put up points on virtually everyone) in our recent history was the Bengals in 2005 and in 2015.  They both had true, in their prime, #1 WRs.  Guys that dictated coverage.  Guys that if you gave too much cushion could get easy completions and guys that if you pressed could torch you.  Boyd and Higgins, while great WRs in their own right are simply not those guys.  Plus, if you have a true #1 like Chase, the middle opens up so much more for them as well as forcing safeties deep to open the rushing attack.  

Of course, we need the line improved, but I think no one player can upgrade this offense like Chase.  

Hey, not saying I am against picking Chase at all, just saying I want the O-line taken care of first.

It is not like we don't have weapons.

If we get better blocking up front we can also run on teams which would open everything up. You run on Pitt or Baltimore, you can 
beat them no problem. We saw how we took down Pitt the second time we played them even with a backup QB. Run the ball, cause 
turnovers which should happen more often once we get a pass rush. This would really help out Burrow and I would argue more than
another great weapon. If we cannot block it won't matter this is all I am saying.

(02-01-2021, 12:34 PM)Gdale_Bengal Wrote: It isn’t that hard because Jonah is a good LT and will most likely improve. I don’t think Slater will make a good RT but would be a really good guard, so you have to weigh that against a guy who many(including myself) consider to be an elite to generational talent in Pitts.

I’ll never be upset with selecting a player to protect the franchise, but the franchise also needs incredible pass catchers too

Disagree with this whole heartedly well atleast half of this.... u MUST protect the franchise especially after not protecting it and our franchise goes down with quite possibly the worst injury he could’ve I endured. What I disagree with 100000000%. Is that we need incredible pass catchers too smh I see a bu ch of people in here still projecting players way too early here as if we still have dalton lol joe Burrow doesn’t need this franchise to spend all of its pics on weapons everywhere to surround the Qb so that he has the best chance to succeed lmao. If we simply protect a guy like Burrow everyone on offense is going to play their best football. There wasn’t once last season where I looked at our offense and said damn we need more wr’s. However I clan remember consistently almost every drive saying damn we need to fix the offensive line. With our Quarterback essentially dead right to even talk about doing anything else other than protecting Burrow early in this draft baffles me. And it’s very interesting. I’m not saying don’t draft a wr but over an early tackle or guard or corner or honestly defensive end/rush LB. ur out of ur mind... go get eskridge in the 4th or 5th and be done with the we talk imo

Sewell if he becomes as advertised then we're set for the next decade at tackle. We are already set at WR with Boyd and Higgens at WR. Although I won't be upset with either.

(02-18-2021, 05:50 PM)SadFaceBengal15 Wrote: Disagree with this whole heartedly well atleast half of this.... u MUST protect the franchise especially after not protecting it and our franchise goes down with quite possibly the worst injury he could’ve I endured. What I disagree with 100000000%. Is that we need incredible pass catchers too smh I see a bu ch of people in here still projecting players way too early here as if we still have dalton lol joe Burrow doesn’t need this franchise to spend all of its pics on weapons everywhere to surround the Qb so that he has the best chance to succeed lmao. If we simply protect a guy like Burrow everyone on offense is going to play their best football. There wasn’t once last season where I looked at our offense and said damn we need more wr’s. However I clan remember consistently almost every drive saying damn we need to fix the offensive line. With our Quarterback essentially dead right to even talk about doing anything else other than protecting Burrow early in this draft baffles me. And it’s very interesting. I’m not saying don’t draft a wr but over an early tackle or guard or corner or honestly defensive end/rush LB. ur out of ur mind... go get eskridge in the 4th or 5th and be done with the we talk imo

You must think we have good receivers behind Boyd and Higgins then because behind those 2 it’s a complete dumpster fire including the TE position. You need 3 legit weapons in the nfl today, we have 2 and he was an unproven rookie. I absolutely agree that we protect burrow, and I’m all for getting Sewell at 5 assuming they cant fix RT in FA. I’m not ok with drafting him if we get proven players though. I’d rather a play making receiver or Pitts if we do.

BTW, Pollack agrees with me about Jonah. He is an ascending LT and shouldn’t be moved to guard. They need RT and Guard, and I’d like a center. I hope they get at least one piece in FA

(02-18-2021, 10:58 PM)Gdale_Bengal Wrote: You must think we have good receivers behind Boyd and Higgins then because behind those 2 it’s a complete dumpster fire including the TE position. You need 3 legit weapons in the nfl today, we have 2 and he was an unproven rookie. I absolutely agree that we protect burrow, and I’m all for getting Sewell at 5 assuming they cant fix RT in FA. I’m not ok with drafting him if we get proven players though. I’d rather a play making receiver or Pitts if we do.

BTW, Pollack agrees with me about Jonah. He is an ascending LT and shouldn’t be moved to guard. They need RT and Guard, and I’d like a center. I hope they get at least one piece in FA

Where’s this coming from? Because all I’ve seen from the coaching staff wrt not wanting to move Jonah inside came from Callahan, not Pollack.

(02-13-2021, 04:59 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Don't see #1 in Tee. I think he can potentially be a top tier #2, but it'll be hard to get over his lack of speed separation.

AJ Green:  4.5 40-yd, 1.56 10-yd split, 4.21 20-yd shuttle
Tee Higgins: 4.59 40-yd, 1.66 10-yd split, 4.53 20-yd shuttle

That's AJ at the Combine and Tee at his Pro Day (he didn't work out at the Combine) and pretty universal fact that everyone times faster at their Pro Day. 

Doesn't have the short burst, the long speed, or the change of direction speed to be a true #1, and I don't think he has the sheer brute physicality to get over the lack of speed like Anquan Boldin.

I think Tee was pretty spent at his Pro Day.  I know he had a nagging injury as well.   He had a very long season and he seemed to play faster than this for the Bengals.  Some guys, it seems, pads don't slow them down much at all.  His playing speed (next gen stats anyone?) I think was surprisingly good.

I remember Richard Skinner, a guy who's opinion I respect, asking "what does Higgins do REALLY well", and it was a fairly short list.  Bottom line is he is good at almost everything.  While I will still dream of a guy like AJ or Chad in his prime on the other side of the field with him at the same time (Boyd, Uzo/Sample, and the RBs would FEAST in the middle), I am still VERY happy we have Higgins.  

(02-13-2021, 05:21 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Rare time I disagree with you TLL.

Tee has skills that make him a #1. It is not all about the Combine and Pro Day numbers. He shows up on the field.

Has great hands, runs crisp routes, has great size and is deceivingly fast and most importantly is where he should be even
as a rookie last season. Tee could be better than AJ for all we know especially with Burrow already on the same page with him.

This.  I know it is a bit off topic (I will try to make it relate) but Higgins was a steal at the top of Rd 2.  He didn't get the play the first game, and he lost Burrow the last six games of the season and then was an early injury in the final game.  His stats could have exceeded 1200-1300 yards.  That's unreal.  

Perhaps even more amazing is there wasn't a true #1 WR on the field drawing coverage from him.  Opposing teams never feared getting beat over the top, but he still excelled.  His catch radius combined with a confident QB that would give him chances when he didn't "look open" bodes very well for the future.  I also like the fact that he seems to take pride in being a complete WR and is a solid blocker as well.  

Chase is my dream pick, but if I am completely honest with myself, I doubt it will happen.  There is still this nagging feeling that WJIII is gone and while the cupboard isn't bare in the CB room with Waynes and Phillips, we haven't seen Waynes play a down in over a year by the time next year rolls around and Phillips has some challenges staying healthy on his own.  The more I think about it, I could see the Bengals signing a guy like Thuney and trading back in the draft to get both an OT and CB early on.  

I will hope they strike gold with a later round WR, but we will know before the draft if WJIII will be back and I can't see them using the franchise tag on him.  

(02-18-2021, 05:50 PM)SadFaceBengal15 Wrote: Disagree with this whole heartedly well atleast half of this.... u MUST protect the franchise especially after not protecting it and our franchise goes down with quite possibly the worst injury he could’ve I endured.  What I disagree with 100000000%. Is that we need incredible pass catchers too smh I see a bu ch of people in here still projecting players way too early here as if we still have dalton lol joe Burrow doesn’t need this franchise to spend all of its pics on weapons everywhere to surround the Qb so that he has the best chance to succeed lmao.  If we simply protect a guy like Burrow everyone on offense is going to play their best football.  There wasn’t once last season where I looked at our offense and said damn we need more wr’s. However I clan remember consistently almost every drive saying damn we need to fix the offensive line.  With our Quarterback essentially dead right to even talk about doing anything else other than protecting Burrow early in this draft baffles me.  And it’s very interesting.  I’m not saying don’t draft a wr but over an early tackle or guard or corner or honestly defensive end/rush LB. ur out of ur mind... go get eskridge in the 4th or 5th and be done with the we talk imo

I'm not against drafting Sewell, but there are two realities people are overlooking.  First, no OL can block forever.  Second, the defense can always choose to send more guys than you can block.  

How many extra hits and sacks did Burrow take trying to buy time because he didn't have anyone open?  A bunch.  Putting better weapons around him so he can get the ball out on time is helping to protect him.  Having deep threats that back the defense out of blitzing so much is protecting him.

The "Burrow doesn't need weapons" argument is fine if you don't want to actually win games. One of the most interesting Next Gen stats for QB's is Aggressiveness %, which is basically the % of throws to targets with a defender within a yard of them. Joe was 2nd in the league in this category at over 22%.  This means almost a quarter of his throws are to well covered targets.  By comparison, Patrick Mahommes is down around 11%.  In case anyone wants to argue that it's just Joe trying to force it in to make plays, Brandon Allen was 7th with an over 19% score. Our guys don't get open and you aren't winning a bunch of games with your QB trying to thread the needle again and again to covered receivers.

I was a slump for Sewell guy but I've changed my mind.

This is for several reasons

1. Chase will raise the games of those around him more than Sewell. Being a WR1 he'll let Higgins and Boyd work on opponent's no.2 and 3 CBs, draw safeties away from them etc. Those are two really good players who will be way more productive having Chase on the field than a second or third round receiver.
2. The O-line is a weak link position. You could have 4 all-pro studs but if your fifth O-lineman is a turnstile your QB is getting sacked regularly. It's therefore more important to have solid 4th and 5th lineman than a stud at the top. The O-line needs to be fixed but Sewell alone doesn't fix it.
3. Sewell opted out of this year and doesn't have much experience to fall back on. The same is true of Chase but Burrow's health isn't in the hands of a WR. I'd much rather the main piece to fix the O-line in free agency was a proven player (e.g. a Moton/Thuney/Scherff) than a talented but rusty rookie.

I therefore want Chase but Sewell wouldn't be a bad consolation prize.

(02-19-2021, 01:32 PM)Whatever Wrote: I'm not against drafting Sewell, but there are two realities people are overlooking.  First, no OL can block forever.  Second, the defense can always choose to send more guys than you can block.  

How many extra hits and sacks did Burrow take trying to buy time because he didn't have anyone open?  A bunch.  Putting better weapons around him so he can get the ball out on time is helping to protect him.  Having deep threats that back the defense out of blitzing so much is protecting him.

The "Burrow doesn't need weapons" argument is fine if you don't want to actually win games. One of the most interesting Next Gen stats for QB's is Aggressiveness %, which is basically the % of throws to targets with a defender within a yard of them. Joe was 2nd in the league in this category at over 22%.  This means almost a quarter of his throws are to well covered targets.  By comparison, Patrick Mahommes is down around 11%.  In case anyone wants to argue that it's just Joe trying to force it in to make plays, Brandon Allen was 7th with an over 19% score. Our guys don't get open and you aren't winning a bunch of games with your QB trying to thread the needle again and again to covered receivers.

This could not be more on point. Well said.

(02-19-2021, 01:32 PM)Whatever Wrote: I'm not against drafting Sewell, but there are two realities people are overlooking.  First, no OL can block forever.  Second, the defense can always choose to send more guys than you can block.  

How many extra hits and sacks did Burrow take trying to buy time because he didn't have anyone open?  A bunch.  Putting better weapons around him so he can get the ball out on time is helping to protect him.  Having deep threats that back the defense out of blitzing so much is protecting him.

The "Burrow doesn't need weapons" argument is fine if you don't want to actually win games. One of the most interesting Next Gen stats for QB's is Aggressiveness %, which is basically the % of throws to targets with a defender within a yard of them. Joe was 2nd in the league in this category at over 22%.  This means almost a quarter of his throws are to well covered targets.  By comparison, Patrick Mahommes is down around 11%.  In case anyone wants to argue that it's just Joe trying to force it in to make plays, Brandon Allen was 7th with an over 19% score. Our guys don't get open and you aren't winning a bunch of games with your QB trying to thread the needle again and again to covered receivers.

First you lay out a nice argument , I will take issue though with two things.. Frist Boyd is an established WR and has shown signs of separation and Higgins played well as a rookie and can only improve and the part of separation is can also be attributed to lack of time by line for WRs to separate , I think many times it is hard to evaluate, especially since we don;t know the route called or run... so Burrow with a intense rush gets rid of ball way before the intended route..  

Finally As the saying in coaching goes The Kiss Factor.. keep it simple stupid (not a reference to you obviously).. what does that mean here.. we know the line has been bad.. the down fall of the Dalton years can be attributed to a bad line.. lets go 100% fix the line first before we look elsewhere.