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Can We Win With Our Small Scouting Department? - THE PISTONS - 09-20-2017
I was researching the circumstances around Coughlin not being hired as our Coach and I found this interesting article. It's from 2004, but it still holds true in many ways.
Bengals want miracle man on sidelines
Optimism of candidates belies negativity surrounding Brown
By Mark Curnutte
The Cincinnati Enquirer
PITTSBURGH - The last three Bengals coaches could not produce one winning record in 12 seasons. That begs the questions: Can the next Bengals coach win? And does it matter who coaches the team as long as he answers to the same front office that is ultimately responsible for a 55-137 record since the start of the 1991 season?
Years of media analysis, both local and national, point to two major obstacles a Bengals coach faces - the league's smallest player personnel department, which forces assistant coaches to scout, and a negative attitude that has grown more oppressive with each passing season.
Several agents and players have said the Bengals do not have the best reputation in the league. Despite paying huge contracts to players such as Corey Dillon, Willie Anderson and Brian Simmons, the Bengals are still considered penny-pinchers by many agents and their clients. As a result, the Bengals have been unable to attract more than one or two A-list free agents (Lorenzo Neal, Tony Williams) the past few years.
What's clear in the week since Dick LeBeau was fired is there is no shortage of coaches who say they can both win and work productively with Mike Brown.
Former Jacksonville coach Tom Coughlin on Friday was the latest candidate to speak optimistically about the Bengals' immediate future.
The Bengals' head-coaching job is different than the other two that opened last week - Coughlin's former position with the Jaguars, and the Dallas Cowboys job that went to Bill Parcells.
Both of those organizations have made experienced NFL coaches their priority this time around. Parcells is a two-time Super Bowl winner, and he's going to work for Jerry Jones, an owner who will spend big to win. The name of former Vikings coach Dennis Green has re-emerged in Jacksonville, where the eight-year-old franchise spent way over the salary cap in a successful effort to win early.
But unless the Bengals hire Coughlin, the team's head-coaching job will go to a man with no previous NFL head-coaching experience for the fourth time in the last five hires. The exception was Bruce Coslet, the former Jets coach, who was promoted to replace the fired Dave Shula in 1996.
The Bengals' job has similarities to other NFL jobs. The trend in the league is away from the combination coach-general manager title. Seattle coach Mike Holmgren lost his general manager responsibilities last week. Jacksonville owner Wayne Weaver wants to hire a general manager and a coach to decentralize power. Coughlin had both titles with the Jaguars before his firing Monday. Even Parcells, a known control freak, did not get the GM title with the Cowboys.
Bengals president Mike Brown, who acts as the team's untitled general manager, said Monday after firing LeBeau that the team would not hire a general manager.
The thinking league-wide now is that coaching is demanding enough and can't be paired with time-consuming GM duties.
Coughlin was the third candidate to talk with the Bengals.
The first was Washington defensive coordinator Marvin Lewis, who interviewed Tuesday. He told people close to him that the Bengals situation is not as bad as advertised. Steelers offensive coordinator Mike Mularkey interviewed Saturday in Pittsburgh.
Lewis' reputation is that players want to work for him. He is considered one of the league's brightest defensive minds, and his hiring might help the Bengals retain free agent linebacker Takeo Spikes.
Mularkey has the same type of reputation as an offensive coach, and his creative use of former college quarterbacks Hines Ward and Antwaan Randle El conjures ideas of what he could do with bench-warming quarterback Akili Smith.
All three coaches are considered strong candidates, but doubt persists nationally that even they could win in Cincinnati.
If the Bengals hire one of the three outside candidates - Lewis, Coughlin or Mularkey - the new coach will have to adjust to a comparatively downsized scouting department.
"The odds are against any coach winning there unless a bigger effort is made in the scouting department," said John Clayton, of ESPN.com and ESPN Magazine. "The Bengals concede five months - August, September, October, November and December - to the rest of the league."
The Bengals do not scout college players as heavily as most other NFL teams. They have just four full-time "scouts" in their personnel department - and two of them are Brown family members who spend much of their time in the office. The fifth person in the department is part-time consultant John Cooper, the former Ohio State coach.
"Other teams hit every school," Clayton said. "The Bengals get the (scouting) reports, but I get the reports, too. It's knowing the background information, the players' personalities, that make the difference in drafting."
The Bengals do visit schools during the season, but their scouts do not see as many games as scouts from other NFL teams.
"You need to make evaluations during games," Clayton said. "You're not scouting guys to workout."
Once the NFL season ends, Bengals assistants do make visits to colleges for player workout days. They also attend the annual scouting combine in Indianapolis.
Washington has 13 people in their player personnel department. The Redskins have individual pro- and college-scouting directors, and their college scouts are assigned by region. Before joining the Redskins, Lewis was defensive coordinator in Baltimore, where the Ravens have 11 people in their personnel department.
Lewis was in Pittsburgh as linebackers coach before moving to Baltimore. The Steelers, for whom Mularkey is offensive coordinator, have 10 people in their personnel department - including seven scouts. Before Mularkey joined the Steelers, he was in Tampa Bay. The Buccaneers have 10 people in their player personnel department -- including one scout dedicated to coordinating the club's efforts at the annual scouting combine in Indianapolis.
Coughlin comes from Jacksonville, where he helped to build an 11-man personnel department. The Jaguars have six full-time scouts, four supervisors and a scouting assistant.
One of the widely acclaimed scouting and personnel departments belongs to the Tennessee Titans. They have 11 people in scouting and personnel - including Director of Arena League Football Operations Pat Sperduto. Titans owner Bud Adams is owner of an expansion arena team which will start play in Nashville in 2004. It will serve as a farm club of sorts for the Titans.
Brown defends his scouting department and the team's personnel structure.
"We get the information on players. I think the information that we get is as good as every team's got," Brown said. "The record indicates that's the case. We have more players through the draft, more starters than any but one or two teams.
"That is what I call a theme. You guys (in the media) develop themes. They have legs of their own and they run for a while. I don't apologize for our scouting efforts. I think we do well in that department."
True, the Bengals do have a large number of their original draft picks on their current roster - including every first-round pick since 1996. However, since the start of the '96 season, the Bengals have a 34-78 record.
The task, though, is not insurmountable.
"Beyond the tangible problems - like the scouting department - you've got the intangible problems," said Howard Balzer, national NFL columnist for Sports Weekly and the SportsXchange. "You've got pro players who want to avoid the place. You've got college kids talking about wanting to play elsewhere."
It once was believed that no coach could win in Tampa Bay. But coach Tony Dungy and general manager Rich McKay changed the Buccaneers' reputation.
"Dungy gave them a fresh look, a fresh slate," Balzer said. "Somebody could come into Cincinnati and turn it around briefly, even if things (in the front office) don't change."
RE: Can We Win With Our Small Scouting Department? - THE PISTONS - 09-20-2017
I think the most compelling thing in the article pertaining to coaches scouting is that the college games are during the regular season so it's impossible for a coach to be at a game live. We'd be watching tape and going by workouts.
RE: Can We Win With Our Small Scouting Department? - ochocincos - 09-20-2017
(09-20-2017, 10:17 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: I think the most compelling thing in the article pertaining to coaches scouting is that the college games are during the regular season so it's impossible for a coach to be at a game live. We'd be watching tape and going by workouts.
This has always been my gripe as well. For a team that supposedly puts such a huge emphasis on nailing draft picks, you'd think they'd devote more time/money into scouting the players.
Also, it's situations like this where the Bengals are still considered cheap, as there is no "cap" on the size and amount for your scouting department.
RE: Can We Win With Our Small Scouting Department? - Vas Deferens - 09-20-2017
"... and two of them are brown family members."
Because handing a career to someone who believes they are entitled to it merely because of their last name always produces great results.
It's pretty obvious these inbred hicks don't give 2 loose dog stools about the product they put on the field. The moves they make this off season will determine if I bail.
RE: Can We Win With Our Small Scouting Department? - THE PISTONS - 09-20-2017
Here is how our division stacked up in 2016. Ask yourself, are our scouts just so good that we don't need as many as other teams?
And I hear that our coaches scout...but how can coaches scout college games in person during the season...while they play games themselves on Sunday?!?!?
Steelers:
The Steelers have 19 people in their 'Football Operations' Department.
http://www.steelers.com/team/front-office.html
Bengals:
The Bengals have 8 people in their 'Player Personnel' Department.
http://www.bengals.com/team/staff-directory.html
Ravens:
RTheavens have 25 people in their 'Player Personnel' Department.
http://www.baltimoreravens.com/team/front-office.html
Before you discount that numbers matter...both of these teams have won 2 Super Bowls each since we've won a playoff game and they've appeared in a combined 6!
Browns:
The Browns have 32 people in their 'Player Personnel' Department:
http://www.clevelandbrowns.com/team/front-office.html
RE: Can We Win With Our Small Scouting Department? - THE PISTONS - 09-20-2017
Hey...since 1996 we're the 28th best drafting team. Maybe we have too many scouts after all!
https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/sports/nfl-draft-values/?utm_term=.90f08f655ff6
And during that time we drafted Dillon, Johnson, Smith, Atkins, Green, Dunlap, Dalton, etc...and still 28th best results.
RE: Can We Win With Our Small Scouting Department? - Bengalfan4life27c - 09-20-2017
The Bears are no better they have had a Mccasky in charge their forever. You have the Raiders with Al Davis for a long time. Jerry and his family pretty much run Cowboys this issue isn't isolated to us.
RE: Can We Win With Our Small Scouting Department? - THE PISTONS - 09-20-2017
(09-20-2017, 11:24 AM)Bengalfan4life27c Wrote: The Bears are no better they have had a Mccasky in charge their forever. You have the Raiders with Al Davis for a long time. Jerry and his family pretty much run Cowboys this issue isn't isolated to us.
Is the goal to be slightly better than the worst teams in the league or to win a Super Bowl?
RE: Can We Win With Our Small Scouting Department? - PhilHos - 09-20-2017
(09-20-2017, 11:26 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Is the goal to be slightly better than the worst teams in the league or to win a Super Bowl?
Yes.
RE: Can We Win With Our Small Scouting Department? - Bengalfan4life27c - 09-20-2017
(09-20-2017, 11:26 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Is the goal to be slightly better than the worst teams in the league or to win a Super Bowl?
Tobin is defacto GM here anyways. why do you think he turned down other actual GM positions.
RE: Can We Win With Our Small Scouting Department? - THE PISTONS - 09-20-2017
(09-20-2017, 11:29 AM)Bengalfan4life27c Wrote: Tobin is defacto GM here anyways. why do you think he turned down other actual GM positions.
Assuming he is the actual GM...which no one knows. It's all speculation.
How can such a small group of scouts be at an adequate amount of games. I've posted how other teams in our division have 4/5 times as many scouts as us.
RE: Can We Win With Our Small Scouting Department? - Bengalfan4life27c - 09-20-2017
That 1996 record is cherry picked. The Bengals since 1981 have been to more superbowls than the Jets, Dolphins Browns Jags Titans Texans Chargers Chiefs Lions Bears Saints Buccs. Since Andy Dalton has been starting QB Bengals have 5th best record in NFL
RE: Can We Win With Our Small Scouting Department? - ochocincos - 09-20-2017
(09-20-2017, 11:37 AM)Bengalfan4life27c Wrote: That 1996 record is cherry picked. The Bengals since 1981 have been to more superbowls than the Jets, Dolphins Browns Jags Titans Texans Chargers Chiefs Lions Bears Saints Buccs
I don't care about anything in football that happened before Tom Brady entered the league. Tom Brady is considered the "modern era".
Heck, if you wanna go further back but still stay relevant, don't go any further back than when modern unrestricted free agency began in 1992.
The NFL is about what have you done for me lately, not what did you do for me 10+ years ago.
RE: Can We Win With Our Small Scouting Department? - Bengalfan4life27c - 09-20-2017
(09-20-2017, 11:42 AM)ochocincos Wrote: I don't care about anything in football that happened before Tom Brady entered the league. Tom Brady is considered the "modern era".
Heck, if you wanna go further back but still stay relevant, don't go any further back than when modern unrestricted free agency began in 1992.
The NFL is about what have you done for me lately, not what did you do for me 10+ years ago.
So a top 5 record since Dalton became QB isn;t relevant either. I'm not defending Marvin we should have moved on. but I think our tiny scouting staff is doing fine. You have many people that analyze prospects all year round for free.
RE: Can We Win With Our Small Scouting Department? - ochocincos - 09-20-2017
(09-20-2017, 11:46 AM)Bengalfan4life27c Wrote: So a top 5 record since Dalton became QB isn;t relevant either. I'm not defending Marvin we should have moved on. but I think our tiny scouting staff is doing fine. You have many people that analyze prospects all year round for free.
This is very true, but do the Bengals take any of that into consideration? We don't know, but I would doubt it.
RE: Can We Win With Our Small Scouting Department? - THE PISTONS - 09-20-2017
(09-20-2017, 11:46 AM)Bengalfan4life27c Wrote: So a top 5 record since Dalton became QB isn;t relevant either. I'm not defending Marvin we should have moved on. but I think our tiny scouting staff is doing fine. You have many people that analyze prospects all year round for free.
So you think drafting is as simple as buying Mel Kiper Jr's guide?
That says it all right there.
We're ranked 28th in scouting since 1996.
RE: Can We Win With Our Small Scouting Department? - THE PISTONS - 03-03-2019
It's going to be interesting to see if the drafts start to improve with this new staff. We were pretty bad drafting LB's under the Lewis regime.
I would say we were below average drafting Lineman too.
We've generally been good finding WR's and defensive lineman.
RE: Can We Win With Our Small Scouting Department? - t3r3e3 - 03-03-2019
(09-20-2017, 10:28 AM)ochocincos Wrote: This has always been my gripe as well. For a team that supposedly puts such a huge emphasis on nailing draft picks, you'd think they'd devote more time/money into scouting the players.
Also, it's situations like this where the Bengals are still considered cheap, as there is no "cap" on the size and amount for your scouting department.
No doubt. Scouts are pretty cheap, especially when considered against player and coach salaries. Mike Clown could hire another 15-20 and it wouldn’t cost more than signing 1-2 vets on an average 1 year vet minimum deal. The scouts would take the heat off of coaches to review college tape/attend games while simultaneously prepping for that week’s game on Sunday. Sounds like a no brainer way to maximize the chances of success, right?
At some point, your record is who you are, and Mike’s as GM/owner has been an utter failure in every meaningful way. Relying on blessed comp picks, to a rational mind, necessitates a large scouting department to maximize the chances of hitting on the picks. Not in Mike Clown’s antiquated view...
RE: Can We Win With Our Small Scouting Department? - t3r3e3 - 03-03-2019
(09-20-2017, 11:46 AM)Bengalfan4life27c Wrote: So a top 5 record since Dalton became QB isn;t relevant either. I'm not defending Marvin we should have moved on. but I think our tiny scouting staff is doing fine. You have many people that analyze prospects all year round for free.
Zero Playoff wins in that time. Never made it out of the Wild Card round. That is not success. Lombardi trophies, and Playoff wins are the true measuring stick of success. If you’re not winning Playoff games and challenging for titles, you’re failing as an organization.
RE: Can We Win With Our Small Scouting Department? - THE PISTONS - 03-03-2019
(03-03-2019, 05:24 PM)t3r3e3 Wrote: Zero Playoff wins in that time. Never made it out of the Wild Card round. That is not success. Lombardi trophies, and Playoff wins are the true measuring stick of success. If you’re not winning Playoff games and challenging for titles, you’re failing as an organization.
Yep. It's as simple as that.
We had 2 really great drafts with Dalton/Green/Boling and Atkins/Dunlap...but since then our drafting hasn't been great.
I'd love to see the Bengals take a more analytical approach.
The Patriots, Steelers, Ravens, etc have 2 to 3 times as many scouts. We have to ask ourselves if our player personnel team is 2 to 3 times as smart as them? If not, we need to change our practices.