+- Cincinnati Bengals Message Board / Forums - Home of Jungle Noise (https://thebengalsboard.com)
+-- Forum: Cincinnati Bengals / NFL (https://thebengalsboard.com/forum-3.html)
+--- Forum: JUNGLE NOISE (https://thebengalsboard.com/forum-2.html)
+--- Thread: Remember how Marv coached defense in Baltimore? (/thread-13388.html)
Remember how Marv coached defense in Baltimore? - McC - 11-08-2017
He came at you from everywhere, non-stop. He attacked you from beginning to end. He beat you to a bloody pulp. Yes, he had great players. But I'm talking about the way he coached. Bend but not break? Are you kidding me? He would bend and then break you. There were seasons when I worried if the Bengals would even score on them. In either game.
What the **** happened? How did we get from there to here? What broke in that guy that turned him into this guy?
RE: Remember how Marv coached defense in Baltimore? - PDub80 - 11-08-2017
(11-08-2017, 10:40 PM)McC Wrote: He came at you from everywhere, non-stop. He attacked you from beginning to end. He beat you to a bloody pulp. Yes, he had great players. But I'm talking about the way he coached. Bend but not break? Are you kidding me? He would bend and then break you. There were seasons when I worried if the Bengals would even score on them. In either game.
What the **** happened? How did we get from there to here? What broke in that guy that turned him into this guy?
Marvin was a non factor in Baltimore. He had 5 Hall of famer soon defense. They switched coordinators and even schemes maybe 3 times after he left and always had a top tier defense.
Bottom line: Marvin left.... New coaches came in with new schemes and NOTHING changed. The Ravens were outstanding on defense. Therefore, Marvin = Non-factor.
RE: Remember how Marv coached defense in Baltimore? - McC - 11-08-2017
(11-08-2017, 10:49 PM)PDub80 Wrote: Marvin was a non factor in Baltimore. He had 5 Hall of famer soon defense. They switched coordinators and even schemes maybe 3 times after he left and always had a top tier defense.
Bottom line: Marvin left.... New coaches came in with new schemes and NOTHING changed. The Ravens were outstanding on defense. Therefore, Marvin = Non-factor.
Not true at all. And the guys who came in followed his path. Marvin was pretty damned brilliant in Baltimore. And you kinda missed the point. I was talking about the way he coached. You went right to the players. Not the same thing.
RE: Remember how Marv coached defense in Baltimore? - bengalfan74 - 11-08-2017
The mediocre oozes from every pore, every crack, every crevice of this organization. It invades every person, player, coach, reporter, literally everyone who has anything to do with this team. It engulfs and overtakes everything before it. It permeates into everything and it emanates from Mike Brown.
Under Mike Brown everyone and everything learns to settle, to settle for being average, to settle for mediocre. There is no striving to be great, striving to win, stopping at nothing to be the best.
Mike has never tried to build a winning culture, never coveted the Lombardi, never said we'll do it or die. Mike has never sold the brand, never pushed his team.
The first few seasons I'm sure Marvin had heart, desire, wanted to win. It's been beaten out of him just like it is for the lot.
In short Marvin has become bungalized ! Just like everyone who comes here is.
RE: Remember how Marv coached defense in Baltimore? - nickndfl - 11-08-2017
Marvin is hanging onto the job like an establishment congressman. Problem is Marvin needs term limits and Mikey B. doesn't want to Make the Bengals Great Again.
I think the next logical move if any, would be to move Marvin to GM. That would make sense in Cincinnati.
RE: Remember how Marv coached defense in Baltimore? - BenZoo2 - 11-08-2017
To answer the op's question. I don't remember, and neither does he.
RE: Remember how Marv coached defense in Baltimore? - NATI BENGALS - 11-08-2017
(11-08-2017, 10:49 PM)PDub80 Wrote: Marvin was a non factor in Baltimore. He had 5 Hall of famer soon defense. They switched coordinators and even schemes maybe 3 times after he left and always had a top tier defense.
Bottom line: Marvin left.... New coaches came in with new schemes and NOTHING changed. The Ravens were outstanding on defense. Therefore, Marvin = Non-factor.
Points.
RE: Remember how Marv coached defense in Baltimore? - Big Boss - 11-08-2017
Making money is more important to Mike Brown than winning. He gave Marvin enough tools and resources to accomplish the former, and not enough for the latter.
RE: Remember how Marv coached defense in Baltimore? - McC - 11-08-2017
It's pretty simple minded to not be able to separate the Marv that is from the Marv that was. The Marv that was wanted to make you his *****. The Marv that is is content to be somebody's *****. Like 74 said, he has been Bengalized.
RE: Remember how Marv coached defense in Baltimore? - NATI BENGALS - 11-09-2017
Wasnt he a LB specialist?
We lucked into burfict. Recycled vet LBs. Who like harrison and dansby were better after they left and even older. And we have missed on so many LB draft picks since he has been here.
Arm chair GMs have been calling for a smaller speed rusher for years. Years after dontay moch ran a fast 40 that meant we had to draft him we finally got another smaller faster speed rusher. After fighting through shitty coaching and a move to LB this offseason he has shown he could be an impact player. Another year of coaching by Marvin though... Lawson will be screwed.
Jordan Evans looked like one of our best LBs this preseason. Minter didnt earn shit. Vrey is still vrey. Goes 100mph but is a backup level player. Evans being young and oozing potential has probably played less than 10 defensive snaps. Only reason we got him was because he ran a fast 40... Reason he doesnt play.. Marvin doesnt know shit
RE: Remember how Marv coached defense in Baltimore? - The Caped Crusader - 11-09-2017
Depressed why we don't use some of the speed we have at corners, safety and linebackers to create pressure. We have a great line, but rest our laurels on that. We have to be SUPER easy to beat because we never blitz, and when we do, it's the biggest red flag in the world. I wish we would mix it up, but we don't do that. Not since Zimmer left.
RE: Remember how Marv coached defense in Baltimore? - TheLeonardLeap - 11-09-2017
(11-09-2017, 12:00 AM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: Wasnt he a LB specialist?
We lucked into burfict. Recycled vet LBs. Who like harrison and dansby were better after they left and even older. And we have missed on so many LB draft picks since he has been here.
Arm chair GMs have been calling for a smaller speed rusher for years. Years after dontay moch ran a fast 40 that meant we had to draft him we finally got another smaller faster speed rusher. After fighting through shitty coaching and a move to LB this offseason he has shown he could be an impact player. Another year of coaching by Marvin though... Lawson will be screwed.
Jordan Evans looked like one of our best LBs this preseason. Minter didnt earn shit. Vrey is still vrey. Goes 100mph but is a backup level player. Evans being young and oozing potential has probably played less than 10 defensive snaps. Only reason we got him was because he ran a fast 40... Reason he doesnt play.. Marvin doesnt know shit
Dontay Moch = 255lbs
Carl Lawson = 261lbs
Neither of them are "small". Or even really much smaller, just compared to the Bengals normal love of giant stork-armed DEs. Khalil Mack and Von Miller are both 250. I think what most "armchair GMs" were calling for were smaller faster LBs, so TEs, running QBs, and pass catching RBs don't routinely destroy the Bengals D. Instead they keep getting slow 250-260lb LBers and some unknown jackass named Jack Doyle puts up 12/121/1 against them after having 0 games of 80+ yards in the previous 4.5 years of his career.
Also... Lawson is listed as a DE, not a LB, according to NFL.com
http://www.nfl.com/player/carllawson/2557901/profile
RE: Remember how Marv coached defense in Baltimore? - TheLeonardLeap - 11-09-2017
(11-09-2017, 01:35 AM)The Caped Crusader Wrote: Depressed why we don't use some of the speed we have at corners, safety and linebackers to create pressure. We have a great line, but rest our laurels on that. We have to be SUPER easy to beat because we never blitz, and when we do, it's the biggest red flag in the world. I wish we would mix it up, but we don't do that. Not since Zimmer left.
There's less speed on the back 7 than you might think.
Jones: 4.38 (he is 34 y/o now)
Williams: 4.46
Kirkpatrick 4.51
Iloka: 4.66
Vigil: 4.72
Minter: 4.81
Burfict: 4.93 (he was fat when he ran this, so there's no good 40-time, he reads plays well, but isn't extremely fast)
AVERAGE: 4.638
So Burfict is faster than that number, and Jones is slower than his number, but two of the other three fastest people on the D (Kirkpatrick/Williams) can't tackle worth a damn.
It's not a particularly fast defense, hence the propensity to play zone defense. Here's some other 4-3 back 7s as a comparison...
JACKSONVILLE:
Ramsey: 4.41
T. Smith: 4.52
Bouye: 4.55
Gipson: 4.60
Poslunszny: 4.62 (he's 33 now)
Church: 4.69
*Jack: No 40 Time*
AVERAGE: 4.565
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
SEATTLE:
Griffin: 4.38
Thomas: 4.49
Wagner: 4.51
Sherman: 4.56
Chancellor: 4.69
Wright: 4.75
Wilhoite: 4.82
AVERAGE: 4.600
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
MINNESOTA:
Waynes: 4.31
Rhodes: 4.43
H. Smith: 4.57
Kendricks: 4.61
Densejo: 4.65
Barr: 4.66
Gedeon: 4.75
AVERAGE: 4.569
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
CAROLINA:
Adams: 4.49 (he's 36 now)
Bradberry: 4.50
Kuechly: 4.58
Coleman: 4.62
Thompson: 4.64
Worley: 4.64
Davis: 4.65 (he is 34 now)
AVERAGE: 4.588
Obviously 40 times don't mean everything, and they aren't a perfect indication of how fast a player can really play (*Cough*Ross*Cough*) but it kind of just goes towards showing that the Bengals aren't particularly fast in their back-7. Sure the differences listed aren't huge, but the point remains that a little here and a little there equates to a step of separation here and a step past a diving tackle there.
RE: Remember how Marv coached defense in Baltimore? - bengalsturntup5532 - 11-09-2017
That's a damn good question to ask. Because we all expected the defense guru that was Marvin Lewis to build that type of defense here in the beginning and it actually went opposite, I just watched the Bengals vs Steelers game the one we clinched the division in 2005 , it was a awesome thing to watch because Steelers scored 1st easily but our offense said no big deal came out and scored back. Pittsburgh drives again scores easily. Our offense said no big deal scores again. Then Pitt turned it over and our offense says thanks,and scores again. Marvin was offensively aggressive more back then or was he,was it really brat and Carson being a top qb. The offense was elite. O line was great. But Marvin showed the same mannerisms on the sideline ,just younger . We didn't get a real good defense till Zimmer came ,and Andy Dalton had the luxury of a good defense. I wasn't a football fan to watch Marvin in Baltimore but I have heard there was other good coaches on that team and the defense had great players.
RE: Remember how Marv coached defense in Baltimore? - NATI BENGALS - 11-09-2017
(11-09-2017, 01:57 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Dontay Moch = 255lbs
Carl Lawson = 261lbs
Neither of them are "small". Or even really much smaller, just compared to the Bengals normal love of giant stork-armed DEs. Khalil Mack and Von Miller are both 250. I think what most "armchair GMs" were calling for were smaller faster LBs, so TEs, running QBs, and pass catching RBs don't routinely destroy the Bengals D. Instead they keep getting slow 250-260lb LBers and some unknown jackass named Jack Doyle puts up 12/121/1 against them after having 0 games of 80+ yards in the previous 4.5 years of his career.
Also... Lawson is listed as a DE, not a LB, according to NFL.com
http://www.nfl.com/player/carllawson/2557901/profile
That was the point. People have wanted pass rushers. Lots of good ones are not 6'6" 280lbs. Around here not moving slow like MJ Gilberry Geathers Clarke etc makes you a speed rusher
Lawson was playing LB in training camp. Moch was also a good pass rusher. Guess which head coach put him at LB?
Also... Go look at what Lawson is listed at on Marvin Lewis' roster. Hint. Its LB
RE: Remember how Marv coached defense in Baltimore? - The Caped Crusader - 11-09-2017
(11-09-2017, 02:43 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: There's less speed on the back 7 than you might think.
Jones: 4.38 (he is 34 y/o now)
Williams: 4.46
Kirkpatrick 4.51
Iloka: 4.66
Vigil: 4.72
Minter: 4.81
Burfict: 4.93 (he was fat when he ran this, so there's no good 40-time, he reads plays well, but isn't extremely fast)
AVERAGE: 4.638
So Burfict is faster than that number, and Jones is slower than his number, but two of the other three fastest people on the D (Kirkpatrick/Williams) can't tackle worth a damn.
It's not a particularly fast defense, hence the propensity to play zone defense. Here's some other 4-3 back 7s as a comparison...
JACKSONVILLE:
Ramsey: 4.41
T. Smith: 4.52
Bouye: 4.55
Gipson: 4.60
Poslunszny: 4.62 (he's 33 now)
Church: 4.69
*Jack: No 40 Time*
AVERAGE: 4.565
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
SEATTLE:
Griffin: 4.38
Thomas: 4.49
Wagner: 4.51
Sherman: 4.56
Chancellor: 4.69
Wright: 4.75
Wilhoite: 4.82
AVERAGE: 4.600
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
MINNESOTA:
Waynes: 4.31
Rhodes: 4.43
H. Smith: 4.57
Kendricks: 4.61
Densejo: 4.65
Barr: 4.66
Gedeon: 4.75
AVERAGE: 4.569
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
CAROLINA:
Adams: 4.49 (he's 36 now)
Bradberry: 4.50
Kuechly: 4.58
Coleman: 4.62
Thompson: 4.64
Worley: 4.64
Davis: 4.65 (he is 34 now)
AVERAGE: 4.588
Obviously 40 times don't mean everything, and they aren't a perfect indication of how fast a player can really play (*Cough*Ross*Cough*) but it kind of just goes towards showing that the Bengals aren't particularly fast in their back-7. Sure the differences listed aren't huge, but the point remains that a little here and a little there equates to a step of separation here and a step past a diving tackle there.
True. And the three most blitz happy teams, LA Rams, SF 49ers and Indy Colts aren't ranked very high in sacks...
But they also a generally slow defense.
RE: Remember how Marv coached defense in Baltimore? - Fan_in_Kettering - 11-09-2017
(11-08-2017, 10:40 PM)McC Wrote: He came at you from everywhere, non-stop. He attacked you from beginning to end. He beat you to a bloody pulp. Yes, he had great players. But I'm talking about the way he coached. Bend but not break? Are you kidding me? He would bend and then break you. There were seasons when I worried if the Bengals would even score on them. In either game.
What the **** happened? How did we get from there to here? What broke in that guy that turned him into this guy?
This is a terrific point and I wish I could give it rep more than once. The Cincinnati Bengals had awful defenses throughout the 1990s and back in 2003 everyone thought Marvin Lewis would bring the Baltimore style defense to Cincinnati. Not even Mike Zimmer accomplished that — but he got closer than Marvin ever did.
While it’s true the players make a YUGE difference, coaching does too. Marvin certainly had it good with the Ravens. Imagine coaching Peter Boulware, Ray Lewis, Sam Adams, Chris McAlister, and Tony Siragusa in their primes! Marvin ran a base 4-3 in Baltimore with Adams and Siragusa at defensive tackle.
Since 2003 have the Bengals had quality defensive players like the ones I just mentioned? Emphatically, no! With that said, Marvin wasn’t brought to Cincinnati to coach defense. He hired Leslie Frazier for that.
RE: Remember how Marv coached defense in Baltimore? - HarleyDog - 11-09-2017
I remember when Marvin came here, I had a pumped up feeling like he was going to change things for the better. He did exactly that and we were very competitive. When he leaves, he may possibly leave this team in worse shape than when he found it.
RE: Remember how Marv coached defense in Baltimore? - Housh - 11-09-2017
(11-08-2017, 10:40 PM)McC Wrote: He came at you from everywhere, non-stop. He attacked you from beginning to end. He beat you to a bloody pulp. Yes, he had great players. But I'm talking about the way he coached. Bend but not break? Are you kidding me? He would bend and then break you. There were seasons when I worried if the Bengals would even score on them. In either game.
What the **** happened? How did we get from there to here? What broke in that guy that turned him into this guy?
I’m not one to shit on a coach’s success because of his players but Iv found the Ines that deserve it reveal themselves EVENTUALLY and boy the jury is still out in Marvin defensively after so many years
I’m the last Marvin supporter ever but when he has the talent on that side he and whatever coordinator he has gets it done. We are usually a top 10 defense every year with the recent slide being because we let most the talent walk and went young. But even this year we aren’t a bad defensive team. We’re horrible covering 80 yards and insanely elite at covering the 20 years of the redzone
I’m just don’t get it
RE: Remember how Marv coached defense in Baltimore? - PDub80 - 11-09-2017
(11-08-2017, 10:55 PM)McC Wrote: Not true at all. And the guys who came in followed his path. Marvin was pretty damned brilliant in Baltimore. And you kinda missed the point. I was talking about the way he coached. You went right to the players. Not the same thing.
What I said is 100% true. The coaches after Marvin absolutely did NOT follow his path. Not as much as you would think. I did a huge post breaking down the myth of Marvin as a DC on the previous iteration of these forums. I didn't miss the point, friend. You made no point. You offered up some conjecture trying to reminisce about something that doesn't exist: Marvin's ferocity as a coach/coordinator.
You really didn't present any evidence as to how Marvin now is different from Marvin then. All you did to explain your point was to offer up these wistful gems (my comments on your thoughts in Blue)....
"He came at you from everywhere, non-stop."
"He attacked you from beginning to end."
"He beat you to a bloody pulp."
^ Did he? Please present some sort of statistical comparison about his schemes and tendencies as a DC then vs now that makes sense. If you don't provide us that then you're just saying stuff to convince yourself that Marvin was a great coach. I'm not so sure he ever was, really. More on that way bellow.
I actually think your above random statements might more aptly apply to Mike Brown berating local city councilmen during the last round of stadium negotiating more than Marvin's coaching of the Ravens D.
"Bend but not break? Are you kidding me? He would bend and then break you."
^ Kinky, but not sure what this has to do with football or Marvin? Unless you know something about Marvin's private life we don't.....
"There were seasons when I worried if the Bengals would even score on them. In either game."
^ Uh, buddy, we were all worried every game on if the 90's Bengals were going to score on anybody and in any game, not just the Ravens. That's not Marvin doing that. That's Mike Brown.
All kidding aside, lets tackle the real issue here and that is a lack of understanding the history of the Baltimore Ravens defense during and after Marvin's tenure there. I will simplify my post from the other board and re-post the most important information showing the cause and (lack of effect) from Marvin being or not being there here in a few minutes.
HOLD FOR EDIT TO ADD INFO
I made my edit on the next page titled: Marvin's Myth