+- Cincinnati Bengals Message Board / Forums - Home of Jungle Noise (https://thebengalsboard.com)
+-- Forum: Cincinnati Bengals / NFL (https://thebengalsboard.com/forum-3.html)
+--- Forum: JUNGLE NOISE (https://thebengalsboard.com/forum-2.html)
+--- Thread: Bodine: Where he needs to improve in year 2 (/thread-525.html)
Bodine: Where he needs to improve in year 2 - RoyleRedlegs - 06-07-2015
In his rookie year Russell Bodine started all 16 games at center. However, the results were mixed at best.
How much of this can be chalked up to be being a rookie?
How much of it is correctable?
To answer these questions depends on your personal philosophy. Do you believe a player can truly get better at things they struggle with or do they just get better at what they are already good at to mask their deficiencies.
I tend to fall in the latter category. I believe that barring physical transformation (losing or gaining a significant amount of weight) players are generally what they are. Certain aspects can be refined to a degree. But you cannot change the overall game of a player.
Part 1: 1/0 Gaps
Bodine struggled a lot when asked to be a front side blocker, meaning when asked to block to the side of the line where the play was run. He struggled getting the guy secured and out of the backfield. Teams often had guys crossing his face getting deep penetration into the backfield. It is of no coincidence that towards the end of the season the Bengals relied heavily on a zone play where Whitworth and Boling would pull from the backside to the front side having Bodine block back on the DL in case a cut back was needed. This gave Bodine a better chance to win at his blocks.
Bodine vs Denver
In this clip you see part of the problem. 97 for Denver is able to win the hand battle off the snap, hands inside and locked on. He rolls his hips and drives Bodine backwards causing disruption.
What is important about this play is that it shows a fatal flaw in Bodine's game, if you believe that players cannot fundamentally change who they are.
He gets his hands wide off the snap and to the frame of the body. This is a repeated problem in his game and it becomes increasingly noticeable the more you watch.
Here are two other (albeit crap quality) clips of the same problem. The defender gets in on Bodine and presses him off and makes the play in the backfield.
Bodine vs Jacksonville
Bodine vs Atlanta
When he loses in these clips he's too slow to try and win the hand battle, it often leaves him trying to just out-muscle the other guy. He doesn't have the natural god-given size to make up for that and he can be taken off balance when he does. In year two, Bodine has to figure out how to win these hand battles. He needs to sink his hips and re-work those hands inside to develop power behind them. Recovering after being beat can be what separates a serviceable player from a quality starter. Even if everything else isn't on point, if you can find a way to recover you can find a way to make a play.
Here's the play we became very dependent on down the stretch:
Hill goes 80 for the TD
This shows where Bodine succeeds most as a run blocker, down block the DL backside and let Whit/Boling get out in front. This works well with our shift to a zone block scheme, giving Hill and Gio chances to see lanes.
Part 2: Second Level/Screens
Another area we need Bodine to improve is in his second level blocking. The problem wasn't always getting TO the blocks, but securing them long enough for the RB to get on the other side of them. He did show some good success blocking in screens for us as a rookie. Better than on run plays.
It isn't visible in this (video was taken to highlight Gio) but he does a fantastic job getting up field and setting a lane for the RB (who missed it).
Bodine vs Denver
And this is probably the best block(s) he made all season.
Bodine vs Atlanta
Now, here we see blocking the second level on a run play.
Bodine vs Houston
This is an ideal scenario to block the backside LB. He's flowing to you in a straight line, giving a perfect line of sight to block him. Bodine gets there fine and it's timed perfectly but he doesn't deliver a blow and stun the LB and the LB scrapes off and makes the play.
Another play where the LB is flowing into the block but it isn't secured and the LB gets off the block and to the RB.
Bodine vs Atlanta
Now watch this block by Zeitler on the LB:
Zeitler vs Houston
He never lets the LB gain separation, when he tries to swim over top, he puts his hands in the ribs and finishes blocking him giving the RB a lane to run. In both clips of Bodine you see him hop up after the LB gets off the block. In order to take the next step, he needs to feel the LB getting away and angle himself between the LB and the RB like Zeitler did. Both times he lost, he allowed the LB the inside shoulder to the RB. This is one of the more correctable flaws in any OL game. It's just about being aware enough, and by all accounts he's a smart kid so it should be a doable improvement.
How doable? This doable:
Bodine vs Baltimore
He clearly shows the ability to make this type of block but needs to be more consistent with his positioning.
Part 3: Stunts, Blitzes and A-Gaps
I was honestly a bit surprised more teams didn't try to attack us with A-gap blitzes and stunts up front on the rookie center. Those are things teams usually feel compelled to do to expose young players. Give them moving parts to worry about. They worked well at times for opposing defenses. Bodine did struggle with A-Gap blitzes and stunts. He gets a little tight in his hips and can't always work across to pick them up. When it comes to general blitzes however, it was one of Bodine's better attributes. He did very well picking up the blitz, especially a delayed rush.
Here the LB comes late on the read of the draw, Bodine makes him pay:
Bodine vs Denver
On the stunt, 94 from Atlanta crosses Bodine's face and beats him. Luckily this time, poor little Gio threw himself into the DL and slowed it enough to allow the play to get off in time.
Bodine vs Atlanta
Another situation where the stunting DL gets Bodine off guard and into bad technique. Again, with some luck we had a quick slant called and ball was fired out with no real damage.
Bodine vs Denver
The only A-Gap video I could find was worse quality than the Jags game.
I'll add it if I can find better quality.
Overall this is another area I have concern about long-term ability to really improve. Where he struggles here is similar to how he struggled blocking guys in the 1/0 gaps. He loses the hand battle, loses leverage and doesn't have enough behind him to stone it. Tight in the hips and late to the party. As with the 1/0 blocking, when teams start doing this, the coaches need to find ways to minimize the effect these have on the game, and for the most part they did. Quick passes and RBs picking up what's not blocked. It isn't perfect and can limit the offense.
In the end, can Bodine find a way to transform himself as a player? I don't know, I'm not overly optimistic. Too often you see defenders get off his blocks with too much ease and get in on a play.
What Bodine has going for him that won't be gone for a good long time is this, he's a tough guy who is very durable. In a league where quality centers are few and far between that can find it's own niche and play if the team has good enough guards and stubborn enough coaches...
RE: Bodine: Where he needs to improve in year 2 - BengalChris - 06-07-2015
For a rookie 4th rounder he played pretty well. I expect him to improve in his second year. Clearly the coaches felt good enough about him to cut Cook loose.
If he doesn't improve in 2015 we'll be drafting another center in the 2016 draft.
RE: Bodine: Where he needs to improve in year 2 - RoyleRedlegs - 06-07-2015
(06-07-2015, 10:06 PM)BengalChris Wrote: For a rookie 4th rounder he played pretty well. I expect him to improve in his second year. Clearly the coaches felt good enough about him to cut Cook loose.
If he doesn't improve in 2015 we'll be drafting another center in the 2016 draft.
Cook's knees were shot. Had nothing to do with Bodine.
He was released over a month before the draft.
And retired in August.
RE: Bodine: Where he needs to improve in year 2 - Lqhybrid25 - 06-07-2015
I actually love this post and the break down. I voted no because I'm on a stupid tablet that's having touch screen issues.
Think Bodine will get better. If not good chance we can go after Mack
RE: Bodine: Where he needs to improve in year 2 - bengalfan74 - 06-07-2015
I feel proper technique can be taught/refined and feel he will improve - some.
Speed, quickness, football awareness can't be taught.
RE: Bodine: Where he needs to improve in year 2 - RoyleRedlegs - 06-07-2015
(06-07-2015, 10:19 PM)Lqhybrid25 Wrote: I actually love this post and the break down. I voted no because I'm on a stupid tablet that's having touch screen issues.
Think Bodine will get better. If not good chance we can go after Mack
Thank you.
I don't know if we could afford Mack. I really doubt it.
(06-07-2015, 10:34 PM)Bengalfan74 Wrote: I feel proper technique can be taught/refined and feel he will improve - some.
Speed, quickness, football awareness can't be taught.
To a degree I understand. But I think the hand aspect, firing inside, delivering a punch etc....that stuff is more natural and comes under whether or not that player has that explosive nasty attitude.
RE: Bodine: Where he needs to improve in year 2 - bengalfan74 - 06-07-2015
(06-07-2015, 11:36 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: Thank you.
I don't know if we could afford Mack. I really doubt it.
To a degree I understand. But I think the hand aspect, firing inside, delivering a punch etc....that stuff is more natural and comes under whether or not that player has that explosive nasty attitude.
Oh I agree with that. I've always believed that the lack of enough killer instinct has been Maualuga's biggest problem.
RE: Bodine: Where he needs to improve in year 2 - RoyleRedlegs - 06-07-2015
(06-07-2015, 11:50 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Oh I agree with that. I've always believed that the lack of enough killer instinct has been Maualuga's biggest problem.
That's part of my logic behind why I am pessimistic about a player like Bodine really being able to take the next step.
Maualuga was too limited an athlete to really change his physique enough to change as a player. He's always going to be a downhill thumper at LB.
It's really rare a guy can truly change how they play, especially with physical limitations.
RE: Bodine: Where he needs to improve in year 2 - OkamiW - 06-08-2015
Firstly, solid post OP! I think Bodine can improve on year 2, though signing Mack would be interesting
RE: Bodine: Where he needs to improve in year 2 - phil413 - 06-08-2015
First off great post, very to the point with proper examples. I won't debate if he will get to where he needs to be this year, that's his job. They'll give him every opportunity, but they're covering themselves if he isn't. They didn't look to a vet backup and TJ Johnson still has to battle just to make the roster.
I think that means Boling is an option at center if need be, especially if Fisher and less likely Ogbuedi is ready at some point to play LG. So say 5 games in Bodine regresses, it's an option to get the best talent on the field and still have Bodine as solid depth. This isn't a slam on Bodine, he has the job now it's his job to keep it.
RE: Bodine: Where he needs to improve in year 2 - bonesaw - 06-08-2015
I think Bodine will be OK. He seemed to have the mean streak. I noticed him drive to the end of the whistle alot. Being competitive will mask some of his shortcomings. When he got beat it was right away, like you said mostly hand position or over extending his weight from trying to hard to be aggressive. To me that is all rookie mistakes. He could definitely use some more strength/size but he can be pretty good. Nice thread
RE: Bodine: Where he needs to improve in year 2 - Stormborn - 06-08-2015
See this thread? This is what a thread should aspire to become.
Bodine is probably the easiest guy to get a read on. He lacks proper functional strength to anchor and has shorter than average arms to win at first contact. It's hard to maintain and drive through blocks when you lack these two qualities without refined and excellent technique, which you hit on repeatedly and immensely.
Solid 2 thumbs up.
RE: Bodine: Where he needs to improve in year 2 - fredtoast - 06-08-2015
(06-07-2015, 11:53 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: That's part of my logic behind why I am pessimistic about a player like Bodine really being able to take the next step.
It's really rare a guy can truly change how they play, especially with physical limitations.
I don't understand. You say a player can't overcome physical ,limitations, but all of your crfiticism if Bodine is baed on poor technique.
And if players could not improve then there would be no need for coaches.
Bodine was a bit of a raw project last year. The fact that you were able to find some plays were he failed is not surprising. But there were obviously also plenty of plays were he was successful.
BTW you sound a lot like the guy who was crying that Bodine could not even snap the ball during last training camp. yet it seems he was able to improve and fix that problem.
It is silly to claim that players can not improve in technique. I could understand if you were saying he was too slow or too weak, but every single problem you point out is based on technique instead of lack of physical skill.
RE: Bodine: Where he needs to improve in year 2 - RoyleRedlegs - 06-08-2015
(06-08-2015, 07:44 AM)fredtoast Wrote: I don't understand. You say a player can't overcome physical ,limitations, but all of your crfiticism if Bodine is baed on poor technique.
And if players could not improve then there would be no need for coaches.
Bodine was a bit of a raw project last year. The fact that you were able to find some plays were he failed is not surprising. But there were obviously also plenty of plays were he was successful.
BTW you sound a lot like the guy who was crying that Bodine could not even snap the ball during last training camp. yet it seems he was able to improve and fix that problem.
It is silly to claim that players can not improve in technique. I could understand if you were saying he was too slow or too weak, but every single problem you point out is based on technique instead of lack of physical skill.
Bodine's poor technique is a direct result of his physical limitations....did you not catch on to that?
Or were you more curious about defending a Bengals player, as usual for you?
RE: Bodine: Where he needs to improve in year 2 - RoyleRedlegs - 06-08-2015
(06-08-2015, 01:27 AM)phil413 Wrote: First off great post, very to the point with proper examples. I won't debate if he will get to where he needs to be this year, that's his job. They'll give him every opportunity, but they're covering themselves if he isn't. They didn't look to a vet backup and TJ Johnson still has to battle just to make the roster.
I think that means Boling is an option at center if need be, especially if Fisher and less likely Ogbuedi is ready at some point to play LG. So say 5 games in Bodine regresses, it's an option to get the best talent on the field and still have Bodine as solid depth. This isn't a slam on Bodine, he has the job now it's his job to keep it.
The goal every year should be to get your five best players in on the OL. Whether it means working Z or Boling at center and the rookies at guard (don't forget we have Hopkins too) or starting a rookie over a vet. Get your five best on the field.
(06-08-2015, 01:30 AM)bonesaw Wrote: I think Bodine will be OK. He seemed to have the mean streak. I noticed him drive to the end of the whistle alot. Being competitive will mask some of his shortcomings. When he got beat it was right away, like you said mostly hand position or over extending his weight from trying to hard to be aggressive. To me that is all rookie mistakes. He could definitely use some more strength/size but he can be pretty good. Nice thread
Rookie mistakes are things like missing a snap count, false starts or general brain farts. Bodine's problems extend beyond rookie mistakes. Players rarely change with their hands, you can fix things like bad footwork, false steps, base too wide etc...but the problem with hands is that they are more connected to the attitude. The big punch off the snap, quick inside hands. Bodine's short arms and lack of punch make it very difficult for him to win positioning.
(06-08-2015, 02:42 AM)Stormborn Wrote: See this thread? This is what a thread should aspire to become.
Bodine is probably the easiest guy to get a read on. He lacks proper functional strength to anchor and has shorter than average arms to win at first contact. It's hard to maintain and drive through blocks when you lack these two qualities without refined and excellent technique, which you hit on repeatedly and immensely.
Solid 2 thumbs up.
Thanks.
RE: Bodine: Where he needs to improve in year 2 - bengalfan74 - 06-08-2015
(06-08-2015, 11:19 AM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: The goal every year should be to get your five best players in on the OL. Whether it means working Z or Boling at center and the rookies at guard (don't forget we have Hopkins too) or starting a rookie over a vet. Get your five best on the field.
Rookie mistakes are things like missing a snap count, false starts or general brain farts. Bodine's problems extend beyond rookie mistakes. Players rarely change with their hands, you can fix things like bad footwork, false steps, base too wide etc...but the problem with hands is that they are more connected to the attitude. The big punch off the snap, quick inside hands. Bodine's short arms and lack of punch make it very difficult for him to win positioning.
Thanks.
I basically agree with you Redlegs,
But I think a lot of players are not truly prepared for the difference in the game moving from College to Pro and I feel that figures into the equation a bit, even on the hands.
In college he probably faced one or two NFL caliber NG's DT's a season. Now he's facing a whole different level of speed, quickness, strength, skill, nastiness on every play.
Don't you think ?
RE: Bodine: Where he needs to improve in year 2 - McC - 06-08-2015
I give rep to the OP for the tremendous amount of work involved and the wealth of information contained in the thread.
I hope like hell Bodine can take a step forward because he's our guy and it might take pure disaster to change that.
No matter what the sport, offense or defense, you cannot be weak up the middle.
RE: Bodine: Where he needs to improve in year 2 - bengalfan74 - 06-08-2015
(06-08-2015, 11:36 AM)McC Wrote: I give rep to the OP for the tremendous amount of work involved and the wealth of information contained in the thread.
I hope like hell Bodine can take a step forward because he's our guy and it might take pure disaster to change that.
No matter what the sport, offense or defense, you cannot be weak up the middle.
Yep,
Our O-line took a major hit when Braham went down and I'm not sure it's ever fully recovered ?
RE: Bodine: Where he needs to improve in year 2 - Joelist - 06-08-2015
The OP illustrations are also a good part of why we were getting the ball out so quickly (2.2 seconds is crazy fast). It was lack of trust by the coaches that the interior pass protection could hold up for any length of time. If Bodine improves or we upgrade at Center you may see a less limited offense.
RE: Bodine: Where he needs to improve in year 2 - RoyleRedlegs - 06-08-2015
(06-08-2015, 11:35 AM)bengalfan74 Wrote: I basically agree with you Redlegs,
But I think a lot of players are not truly prepared for the difference in the game moving from College to Pro and I feel that figures into the equation a bit, even on the hands.
In college he probably faced one or two NFL caliber NG's DT's a season. Now he's facing a whole different level of speed, quickness, strength, skill, nastiness on every play.
Don't you think ?
Not necessarily.
I just used the easiest clips to pull up, there were a lot more. But the fact that he struggled so often with this hand use/placement, is cause for great concern.
It isn't like he was missing things, he just wasn't able to make the block.