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RE: Early winners and losers at Training camp - Nate (formerly eliminate08) - 08-09-2022

(08-09-2022, 12:53 PM)PhilHos Wrote: I see Hurtz as an upgrade over Uzomah in terms of on the field productivity. That said, you can't compare what teams are willing to pay players as proof that the "NFL" or "professional talent evaluators" as proof of one player being better than the other. Bad teams almost always HAVE to overpay players to get them to sign with them. That doesn't make said player better. Not to mention if players decide to take a pay cut to play for a variety of reasons.

According to your logic, "professional talent evaluators" think Tom Brady is the 16th best QB in the league behind such greats like Kirk Cousins, Jared Goff, Carson Wentz and Jimmy Garoppolo, to name a few. 

What PhilHos here says. Pay isn't an end all when evaluating talent, there are tons of factors. It is true that bad teams have to 
overpay players like the Jets did with Uzo. We got Hurst for much cheaper on a 1 year deal. That doesn't mean Uzo is better 
than Hurst and it says something when right now Hurst is our #1 TE and Uzo is a backup to Conklin.

RE: Early winners and losers at Training camp - bengalfan74 - 08-09-2022

(08-09-2022, 04:34 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: What PhilHos here says. Pay isn't an end all when evaluating talent, there are tons of factors. It is true that bad teams have to 
overpay players like the Jets did with Uzo. We got Hurst for much cheaper on a 1 year deal. That doesn't mean Uzo is better 
than Hurst and it says something when right now Hurst is our #1 TE and Uzo is a backup to Conklin.

Exactly

There's just a bunch of factors that can come into play on a given players salary. Teams are sometimes desperate for help at a given position and overpay. Teams think they're a couple players away from a ring and go nuts in free agency. Key Injuries can factor in. Just on and on.

In short using a given players salary to gauge his worth just doesn't pan out much.

RE: Early winners and losers at Training camp - fredtoast - 08-09-2022

(08-09-2022, 05:21 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: In short using a given players salary to gauge his worth just doesn't pan out much.


Actually in a vast majority of cases the highest paid players are the best players.

Especially when we are talking about 2 guys who were both free agents at exactly the same time.  If the jets were overpaying due to desperation then why didn't they sign Hurst to that huge contract if he is better than Uzomah?

The fact is that NFL teams did not think hurst was a top TE.  If they did then the Bengals would not have been able to get him so cheaply.  The NFL might be wrong.  You might be wrong.  Right now I am going with the NFL.

Again, I think we got a great value in Hurst.  I just don't see him as a big upgrade over Uzomah.

RE: Early winners and losers at Training camp - Whatever - 08-10-2022

(08-09-2022, 10:51 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Actually in a vast majority of cases the highest paid players are the best players.

Especially when we are talking about 2 guys who were both free agents at exactly the same time.  If the jets were overpaying due to desperation then why didn't they sign Hurst to that huge contract if he is better than Uzomah?

The fact is that NFL teams did not think hurst was a top TE.  If they did then the Bengals would not have been able to get him so cheaply.  The NFL might be wrong.  You might be wrong.  Right now I am going with the NFL.

Again, I think we got a great value in Hurst.  I just don't see him as a big upgrade over Uzomah.

Not everyone is a scheme fit for every team.  Also, keep optics in mind.  Signing the starting TE from a team that was in the SB carries a lot more cache than a guy who lost his starting job on a bottom feeding team to the #4 OA pick.  Not only do bad teams overpay for mediocre players, but they especially overpay for mediocre players from top teams.  Look at Larry Brown and Dexter Jackson as examples of this in the past.

RE: Early winners and losers at Training camp - Go Cards - 08-10-2022

(08-10-2022, 12:16 AM)Whatever Wrote: Not everyone is a scheme fit for every team.  Also, keep optics in mind.  Signing the starting TE from a team that was in the SB carries a lot more cache than a guy who lost his starting job on a bottom feeding team to the #4 OA pick.  Not only do bad teams overpay for mediocre players, but they especially overpay for mediocre players from top teams.  Look at Larry Brown and Dexter Jackson as examples of this in the past.

Agree that the Bengals success helped CJ land more money. 

Not sure if Hurst will be an upgrade as of yet, but do think he will be fine for what the Bengals need presently. 

RE: Early winners and losers at Training camp - bengalfan74 - 08-10-2022

(08-09-2022, 10:51 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Actually in a vast majority of cases the highest paid players are the best players.

Especially when we are talking about 2 guys who were both free agents at exactly the same time.  If the jets were overpaying due to desperation then why didn't they sign Hurst to that huge contract if he is better than Uzomah?

The fact is that NFL teams did not think hurst was a top TE.  If they did then the Bengals would not have been able to get him so cheaply.  The NFL might be wrong.  You might be wrong.  Right now I am going with the NFL.

Again, I think we got a great value in Hurst.  I just don't see him as a big upgrade over Uzomah.

Fred let me dumb it down for you

Is Aaron Rodgers worth more than a RG on an average team - no doubt sure Rodgers is paid more. Is a top flight CB worth more than a rotational Dlineman sure. Everybody gets that !!!

But when you get into comparing middle of the road TE A to middle of the road TE B their pay is not a very good indicator of their true value or ability.

Understand ?

RE: Early winners and losers at Training camp - fredtoast - 08-10-2022

(08-10-2022, 10:25 AM)bengalfan74 Wrote: But when you get into comparing middle of the road TE A to middle of the road TE B their pay is not a very good indicator of their true value or ability.

Understand ?


No I don't.

When I look at the players listed by their contract value generally the better player gets paid more.  Especially when you look at guys who were free agents at the exact same time competing in the same market.

Of course there are exceptions, but it is silly to claim that NFL contracts have nothing to do with the quality of the player as evaluated by NFL experts.

RE: Early winners and losers at Training camp - pally - 08-10-2022



RE: Early winners and losers at Training camp - bengalfan74 - 08-10-2022

(08-10-2022, 04:50 PM)pally Wrote:

Now that's a catch.

RE: Early winners and losers at Training camp - jason - 08-10-2022

(08-10-2022, 07:31 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Now that's a catch.

It would suck to be a fan of a team that doesn't have Ja'Marr Chase...

RE: Early winners and losers at Training camp - Nicomo Cosca - 08-10-2022

He’s a bad, bad man.

RE: Early winners and losers at Training camp - Nicomo Cosca - 08-11-2022

Jonah getting the best of Trey on this rep.



RE: Early winners and losers at Training camp - Nate (formerly eliminate08) - 08-11-2022

(08-10-2022, 04:50 PM)pally Wrote:

(08-10-2022, 07:31 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Now that's a catch.

(08-10-2022, 11:00 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: He’s a bad, bad man.

Left handed over the shoulder snatch catch. That is what I am talkin' about.Pervert

RE: Early winners and losers at Training camp - Nate (formerly eliminate08) - 08-11-2022

(08-10-2022, 10:42 AM)fredtoast Wrote: No I don't.

When I look at the players listed by their contract value generally the better player gets paid more.  Especially when you look at guys who were free agents at the exact same time competing in the same market.

Of course there are exceptions, but it is silly to claim that NFL contracts have nothing to do with the quality of the player as evaluated by NFL experts.

It is also silly to not understand exceptions to generalizations...

RE: Early winners and losers at Training camp - jj22 - 08-11-2022

Apple giving the UDFA gem the Bizzness as they say.



RE: Early winners and losers at Training camp - Nate (formerly eliminate08) - 08-12-2022

That is a little dirty from Eli there...

I think Lassiter could have a big preseason if he keeps it up. His numbers don't say he is crazy fast but he looks
really fast on the field and in pads which is what matters. This is why I don't put as much stock in forty times.

AJ was faster than his forty time in his prime and there was no doubt about it.

Lassiter could be the same except much smaller. Some dudes are just faster on the field without a timer where
they don't have to think about it.

RE: Early winners and losers at Training camp - fredtoast - 08-12-2022

(08-11-2022, 01:02 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: It is also silly to not understand exceptions to generalizations...


The general rule is that the better players get paid better, especially when they are both free agents the exact same year.

You are claiming that Hurst and Uzomah are "exceptions" just because you think you are right and the NFL is wrong.

But the general rule still supports my position.

And, yes, it is silly to not understand that.

RE: Early winners and losers at Training camp - fredtoast - 08-12-2022

(08-12-2022, 02:49 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: AJ was faster than his forty time in his prime and there was no doubt about it.


Tall receivers generally have slower forty times but higher top speed.

Two players can run forty yards in the exact same time, but at the forty yard mark one could be running a lot faster and pulling away.  Chris Henry and AJ were both like that.  Neither had a really impressive forty time but they could blow the top off a defense.

For years I have been saying that the combine results should include "top speed" in addition to the "elapsed time" that everyone always cites as the one-and-only measurement of a player's "speed".

RE: Early winners and losers at Training camp - Nate (formerly eliminate08) - 08-12-2022

(08-12-2022, 04:04 PM)fredtoast Wrote: The general rule is that the better players get paid better, especially when they are both free agents the exact same year.

You are claiming that Hurst and Uzomah are "exceptions" just because you think you are right and the NFL is wrong.

But the general rule still supports my position.

And, yes, it is silly to not understand that.

I guess I can understand that position. I just think Hurst is the better pass catching TE when watching both players.

We will see if this is true and who got the better deal, us or the Jets. I bet it is us and Uzo doesn't have nearly as good of a 
year in New York as he did last year with us. I also bet Hurst has his best season as a pro here this year if he stays healthy.

(08-12-2022, 04:10 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Tall receivers generally have slower forty times but higher top speed.

Two players can run forty yards in the exact same time, but at the forty yard mark one could be running a lot faster and pulling away.  Chris Henry and AJ were both like that.  Neither had a really impressive forty time but they could blow the top off a defense.

For years I have been saying that the combine results should include "top speed" in addition to the "elapsed time" that everyone always cites as the one-and-only measurement of a player's "speed".

Agree with all of this Fred. 

I am sure John Ross would beat Usain Bolt in a forty but Bolt would pull away in a 100 yard split and leave him in the dust
with his length. It was a poor comparison with Lassiter to AJ Green but you know what I mean, a forty doesn't tell you all 
about a player's speed especially in pads and in game situations.

RE: Early winners and losers at Training camp - bengals1969 - 08-12-2022

TE usage should evolve this season since they don’t have to hang back to help save Burrow’s life. The offensive line ought to be enough except in blitz situations. TE becomes an opportunistic position going from an extreme of 5 pass catchers to 7 pass/run blockers using the same 11 personnel.

A good complete TE ought to thrive in the bengals offense.