(10-19-2015, 07:04 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: You keep saying that the cap is the issue but I'm still waiting for you to tell us how exactly it has been an issue. Who exactly were we unable to sign that is causing these issues?

(10-19-2015, 09:57 AM)Luvnit2 Wrote: Pat,

Your team let guys go like T. Smith knowing your top receiver was aging
Ozzie let DL walk or traded them to save cap dollars

A team can't keep letting starters or key back ups walk without replacements. We watched years ago the Bengals have to fill holes with rookies, the same thing the Ravens have to do now. Sorry you can't look back at the last 3 years and see Ozzie's inability to retain his players, it was mostly due to poor cap management on his part. He couldn't afford to reinvest in his own.

(10-19-2015, 11:28 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: I assumed when I asked for examples, I'd get them and not a generic response. So I'll guess what you're referring to:


Smith was offered a competitive contract prior to a lackluster season. After that, the Ravens chose not to match a very similar contract the Niners gave him. In hindsight, it was a mistake as Perriman has been injury plagued. At the time, they knew they could get a receiver in the draft who, at the very least, was just as good as Torrey. But the point is they chose to not sign him.

If you're referring to Ngata, they let his high price tag walk and have had Brandon Williams do a great job since. The D line may be one of the few strengths of the team.

McPhee was 3rd in the depth chart. We're paying Suggs and Dumervil $5m a year and he was offered over $7m a year with the Bears. No offense, but I have to question the intelligence of anyone who suggests that not matching this inflated contract was a mistake. Yea, Suggs ended up getting injured week 1, but you don't say "I am going to pay my #3 more than my #1 and #2 just in case my #1 gets hurt week 1". 

The only thing I can see you arguing is that they should have aggressively pursued a free agent in the secondary, but were probably limited due to cap restrictions, but they don't ever do that. So far you haven't shown the cap to be the issue. It certainly is a issue with the dead money, but your examples demonstrate very little knowledge of the team. It's like when you tried to argue in 2012 that Flacco's contract kept them from signing Boldin despite his cap ht being less than the previous season after they signed him.


The one thing I think we can agree on is that Ozzie is having too many misses in the draft. My biggest concern with the team is that I do not believe they value the offense enough and I am not certain Ozzie is that great at judging offensive talent outside of the O line and at the TE position. The Steelers, Bengals, and Browns all understand the need to throw the ball in the NFL in 2015. The Ravens seem hellbent on remaining a "smash-mouth football team". The secondary coaches also seem incapable of grasping how the rules work now and explaining that to their players. They also need to find someone who can actually coach Flacco and get his head out of his ass every other game. They can't keep going from franchise QB to just OK every other week when the defense is giving up the 5th most points in the league.  Trestman clearly isn't NFL material. He needs to go back and coach in the CFL. This running twice and throwing it to a TE or FB 2 yards behind the line scrimmage isn't working in the NFL. With who they have given Flacco, he needs them to run more slant routes. Aiken can't run a post. Then he just needs them to get open.  At the same time, Flacco needs to know his limits. Not everyone is Boldin. Some throws won't work. Some guys won't be physical and that miracle pass turns into a stupid pick. On the defensive side, Pees is awful at play calling. Everyone knows his blitzes. He isn't surprising the offense, so there's no pressure on the QB. A lack o fpressure means the secondary looks even worse. 

(10-19-2015, 12:05 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: Keep your head in the sand Pat.

Smith wanted to stay and Ozzie low balled him. The same with others.  Ozzie had no choice simply due to no cap space (he created by bad contracts for Flacco and Pitta among others).

The Bengals FO is schooling Ozzie in drafts and keeping their own players. It is why the Bengals roster is recognized as one of the best in the NFL and mostly home grown.

The margin of error of winning and losing teams is slim so depth is a key ingredient, an ingredient missing on the Ravens roster.

(10-19-2015, 11:28 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: I assumed when I asked for examples, I'd get them and not a generic response. So I'll guess what you're referring to:


Smith was offered a competitive contract prior to a lackluster season. After that, the Ravens chose not to match a very similar contract the Niners gave him. In hindsight, it was a mistake as Perriman has been injury plagued. At the time, they knew they could get a receiver in the draft who, at the very least, was just as good as Torrey. But the point is they chose to not sign him.

If you're referring to Ngata, they let his high price tag walk and have had Brandon Williams do a great job since. The D line may be one of the few strengths of the team.

McPhee was 3rd in the depth chart. We're paying Suggs and Dumervil $5m a year and he was offered over $7m a year with the Bears. No offense, but I have to question the intelligence of anyone who suggests that not matching this inflated contract was a mistake. Yea, Suggs ended up getting injured week 1, but you don't say "I am going to pay my #3 more than my #1 and #2 just in case my #1 gets hurt week 1". 

The only thing I can see you arguing is that they should have aggressively pursued a free agent in the secondary, but were probably limited due to cap restrictions, but they don't ever do that. So far you haven't shown the cap to be the issue. It certainly is a issue with the dead money, but your examples demonstrate very little knowledge of the team. It's like when you tried to argue in 2012 that Flacco's contract kept them from signing Boldin despite his cap ht being less than the previous season after they signed him.


The one thing I think we can agree on is that Ozzie is having too many misses in the draft. My biggest concern with the team is that I do not believe they value the offense enough and I am not certain Ozzie is that great at judging offensive talent outside of the O line and at the TE position. The Steelers, Bengals, and Browns all understand the need to throw the ball in the NFL in 2015. The Ravens seem hellbent on remaining a "smash-mouth football team". The secondary coaches also seem incapable of grasping how the rules work now and explaining that to their players. They also need to find someone who can actually coach Flacco and get his head out of his ass every other game. They can't keep going from franchise QB to just OK every other week when the defense is giving up the 5th most points in the league.  Trestman clearly isn't NFL material. He needs to go back and coach in the CFL. This running twice and throwing it to a TE or FB 2 yards behind the line scrimmage isn't working in the NFL. With who they have given Flacco, he needs them to run more slant routes. Aiken can't run a post. Then he just needs them to get open.  At the same time, Flacco needs to know his limits. Not everyone is Boldin. Some throws won't work. Some guys won't be physical and that miracle pass turns into a stupid pick. On the defensive side, Pees is awful at play calling. Everyone knows his blitzes. He isn't surprising the offense, so there's no pressure on the QB. A lack o fpressure means the secondary looks even worse. 

(10-19-2015, 12:52 PM)djs7685 Wrote: There's no way it's smart for the Ravens to pay McPhee or Torrey Smith $8 million per season. I don't care whether they're cap strapped or have the most space in the league.

We'll see what actually happens with Flacco's contract in the very near future, it looks to me like a shit load of dead money tied to some huge cap hits over the next 3 years. Unless I'm reading his contract wrong, I don't see how all of that is magically going to disappear like a lot of Ravens fans have been acting as if it will.

The Ravens have been missing in the draft, badly, and they haven't supplemented in FA to make up for it. There's no denying that they aren't looking good right now, but I'm not 100% sure it has much to do with being in "cap hell" as much as it has been very poor decision making in the draft.

This is a team that has been around for about 20 years, and they have multiple Super Bowls and have had what, like 3 bad seasons total? It's very difficult to knock an organization with those credentials, regardless of some poor drafting and a slow start to the season.

(10-19-2015, 11:28 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: The one thing I think we can agree on is that Ozzie is having too many misses in the draft. My biggest concern with the team is that I do not believe they value the offense enough and I am not certain Ozzie is that great at judging offensive talent outside of the O line and at the TE position. The Steelers, Bengals, and Browns all understand the need to throw the ball in the NFL in 2015. The Ravens seem hellbent on remaining a "smash-mouth football team". The secondary coaches also seem incapable of grasping how the rules work now and explaining that to their players. They also need to find someone who can actually coach Flacco and get his head out of his ass every other game. They can't keep going from franchise QB to just OK every other week when the defense is giving up the 5th most points in the league.  Trestman clearly isn't NFL material. He needs to go back and coach in the CFL. This running twice and throwing it to a TE or FB 2 yards behind the line scrimmage isn't working in the NFL. With who they have given Flacco, he needs them to run more slant routes. Aiken can't run a post. Then he just needs them to get open.  At the same time, Flacco needs to know his limits. Not everyone is Boldin. Some throws won't work. Some guys won't be physical and that miracle pass turns into a stupid pick. On the defensive side, Pees is awful at play calling. Everyone knows his blitzes. He isn't surprising the offense, so there's no pressure on the QB. A lack o fpressure means the secondary looks even worse. 

(10-19-2015, 02:32 PM)Bmoreblitz Wrote: They do need more play makers, however IMO the biggest problem stems from Pees. He has been terrible for the last three seasons. A few players don't have trust in him. Ozzie draft strategy has faults......Plodding, big hitting teams are dinosaurs.  Fast, quick offenses and defenses are what is going to win.   Look at Denver's defense right now.  Von Miller and Demarcus Ware pressuring QB's and spending the $$ to get elite CB talent like Aqib Talib.  They get sacks and create turnovers.   Same thing with Seattle's defense the last few years.  Fast and create turnovers.  Ravens defense?   Stout and slow. Starting CB's the last 2 years that we are signing right off the street.    Stop drafting defensive tackles and tight ends on day 2 of the draft.

(10-19-2015, 12:52 PM)djs7685 Wrote: There's no way it's smart for the Ravens to pay McPhee or Torrey Smith $8 million per season. I don't care whether they're cap strapped or have the most space in the league.

We'll see what actually happens with Flacco's contract in the very near future, it looks to me like a shit load of dead money tied to some huge cap hits over the next 3 years. Unless I'm reading his contract wrong, I don't see how all of that is magically going to disappear like a lot of Ravens fans have been acting as if it will.

The Ravens have been missing in the draft, badly, and they haven't supplemented in FA to make up for it. There's no denying that they aren't looking good right now, but I'm not 100% sure it has much to do with being in "cap hell" as much as it has been very poor decision making in the draft.

This is a team that has been around for about 20 years, and they have multiple Super Bowls and have had what, like 3 bad seasons total? It's very difficult to knock an organization with those credentials, regardless of some poor drafting and a slow start to the season.

(10-19-2015, 02:32 PM)Bmoreblitz Wrote: They do need more play makers, however IMO the biggest problem stems from Pees. He has been terrible for the last three seasons. A few players don't have trust in him. Ozzie draft strategy has faults......Plodding, big hitting teams are dinosaurs.  Fast, quick offenses and defenses are what is going to win.   Look at Denver's defense right now.  Von Miller and Demarcus Ware pressuring QB's and spending the $$ to get elite CB talent like Aqib Talib.  They get sacks and create turnovers.   Same thing with Seattle's defense the last few years.  Fast and create turnovers.  Ravens defense?   Stout and slow. Starting CB's the last 2 years that we are signing right off the street.    Stop drafting defensive tackles and tight ends on day 2 of the draft.

(10-19-2015, 01:00 PM)Whatever Wrote: You can trade big contracts off to get cap relief, but you also have to get something on return to replace them.  Ozzie dumped Boldin for a 7th, and he had back to back 1000 yard seasons for the 9'ers.  You're highly unlikely to get that kind of player in the 7th, so you just make the team worse.  Same with Ngata.  It probably wasn't feasible to keep McPhee, but when you throw in the loss of Ngata and Suggs, you have a thin front 7 that gasses and blows 4th quarter leads.

Every team loses players in fa but Ozzie is missing way too much in the draft to replace that talent, and is handcuffed by a massive QB contract in fa.

(10-19-2015, 03:35 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: It's probably more about Ozzie's luck in the draft running a bit dry.

He hasn't really hit a home run of late.

But he's struggled to bring in new DBs (biggest issue) or new pass rushers who are more than average at best.

(10-19-2015, 03:32 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: Completely agree about Smith and McPhee. Smith wasn't shortchanged or whatever he wants to say. He wasn't worth Brandon Marshall money, sorry. McPhee got an incredible payday just as Kruger did. Both times it would have been stupid for the Ravens to give a situational rusher $8m a year. I'm not sure how someone claiming the Ravens are making bad contract decisions is suggesting we should have done either. 

(10-19-2015, 09:41 AM)SteelCitySouth Wrote: I gotta say, you had them pegged prior to the season happening.  I admit I was one that disagreed with you; however I am here to say I was wrong.

(10-19-2015, 04:53 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: If you suggest not paying Smith and McPhee was a smart move, then you must have also been upset paying an aging over used RB big bucks and no way out (guaranteed portion bad) and even worse paying a ton of money for Pita (often injured) and again a bad guarantee so no way out. Those 2 contracts alone would have paid for Smith and McPhee or 5 or 6 other solid players. That is the reason they are in cap hell and #3 is the Flacco contract.

Quote:He is guaranteed 28 + million I believe in 2016 and 32 million in 2017. Of that, already paid bonuses are at 10.5 million each year. If they cut him, they have a ton of dead money, if they restructure him (pay him the same, but kick the can down the road with bonus money), they are simply pushing the problem to later years. Ozzie has done a lot of restructuring. On the surface fans think it is great because they don't understand the negatives years later. Well with Flacco, the later happens in 2016 and 2017. All because Ozzie gambled and did not offer him enough to sign him prior to his Super Bowl year. In contrast, the Bengals FO gambled and paid AD a fair, but not close to top 10 salary and will benefit now for years to come. That one contract mistake with the QB is haunting Ozzie and making Katie (AD contract) look like a genius.

(10-19-2015, 03:36 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: If Perriman is healthy, we could be seeing a completely different thing from the offense, definitely. But I still think Cam Cameron vanilla play calling from Trestman hinders the team too. To be fair, we have the 8th most points scored in the league. That's a pretty incredible number. So, yea, the offense isn't the issue right now... however, there needs to be a mentality change. I'm not saying abandon "defense wins championships". I'm saying that we need to embrace that it's a passer's league. 

To address your points, you're right. They paid for top pass rushing and have a top corner. They make plays on the defense. They also don't seem to make the same mistakes we make and draw flags. 

(10-19-2015, 03:41 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: The thing with Boldin is that they had to use the money to sign multiple guys on defense. They knew he wouldn't take a pay cut after being so crucial in that playoff run. But they had to fill multiple holes. At least they got a 7th. Better than nothing.  Winning a Super Bowl means above average guys are going to get offers from elsewhere. Bye, Ellerbe and Kruger (and Art Jones a year later). 

They were fortunate, though, that the whole Dumervil thing went down. They ended up using cap space from cutting Boldin to sign him. They also assumed Pitta would be able to step up and be the next Todd Heap... but then that whole knee thing occurred it it looks like he will never play football again. Tough break. 

(10-19-2015, 06:23 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: Does anyone, not just GMLuvnit, believe that the Ravens should have given McPhee $8m a year to play behind Suggs and Dumervil or that Torrey Smith is worth Brandon Marshall, Antonio Brown, or Victor Cruz post 1500 yard season money after he has a 767 yard season? Does anyone want to agree with the message board GM on this?

(10-19-2015, 06:23 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: LOL, do you honestly believe they SHOULD have offered that money to Smith and McPhee those contracts? I don't think paying Forsett $3m a year or paying a, at the time, healthy Pitta $6m a year is equivalent to paying Torrey Smith the same thing Brandon Marshall makes or giving your 3rd pass rusher more than your pro bowl #1 and #2. Pitta had been hurt once when he got his contract. That doesn't constitute "often injured". Maybe you're referring to Ray Rice for the RB... but he was 25 coming off his rookie contract when he got that and, at the time, was a top back in the league. That's not old. 



Yea, Flacco's contract get's problematic these next few years, but that doesn't really back up your arguments that Flacco's contract is to blame for Smith and McPhee not getting overpaid. I mean... you keep trying to suggest that they SHOULD have overpaid them. You told us in 2013 that we should have overpaid Kruger and that Flacco was the reason why we didn't... lol

Does anyone, not just GMLuvnit, believe that the Ravens should have given McPhee $8m a year to play behind Suggs and Dumervil or that Torrey Smith is worth Brandon Marshall, Antonio Brown, or Victor Cruz post 1500 yard season money after he has a 767 yard season? Does anyone want to agree with the message board GM on this?