(06-26-2015, 04:26 PM)Nately120 Wrote: No foolin'.  For a team that needed a QB in 2011 and had a top 5 pick we did exceedingly well if you ask me.  The fact that the 3 QBs taken before Dalton were disgraced within 3 years and are completely irrelevant says a lot.  3 QB busts taken in the first round in a row over a span of 5 picks is pretty significant.

(06-26-2015, 04:26 PM)Nately120 Wrote: No foolin'.  For a team that needed a QB in 2011 and had a top 5 pick we did exceedingly well if you ask me.  The fact that the 3 QBs taken before Dalton were disgraced within 3 years and are completely irrelevant says a lot.  3 QB busts taken in the first round in a row over a span of 5 picks is pretty significant.

(06-24-2015, 05:16 PM)Brownshoe Wrote: Green Bay has Jordy Nelson too (He's just as good as Green), and Cobb (who's better than any of our WRs not named Green), and they have had Lacy tear it up the past few years. Their defense wasn't amazing, but Clay Matthews is a beast too. Denver had Demaryius Thomas (who's better than Green IMO), and Julius Thomas (who IMO is the 2nd best TE in the league), and they had Emmanuel Sanders who is better than anyone not named Green on our team. Denver also had Talib, and DeMarcus Ware who are both some of the best in their positions in the league. Denver even had one of the best OLs in the league the last few years. The Colts had Reggie Wayne who is a great WR, and they have T.Y. Hilton who is a great WR, and Fleener who is a underrated TE. The Chargers don't have a lot of elite players, but they have a lot of above average players (Allen, Gates, Woodhead, ). Rivers is IMO one of the best QBs in the league too.

(06-27-2015, 12:30 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I go back and forth on Dalton (my opinion kind of reflects his play), but if we were all told before the 2011 draft that we could have a 2nd round QB who would accomplish the following, we all would've said "yes, please":

- career 85.2 passer rating
- stabilized the position and helped lead the team to 4 straight playoff berths
- average 3700 pass yards and 27.5 total TD's 
- low amount of fumbles for a QB
- average ranking of 18th in passer rating
- total class act and good guy

Even with the playoff losses and the slightly high amount INT's, I think we all would've wanted to snap him up. Now I'm not saying we should be content with Dalton. It's ok to want more from him, and I wouldn't keep him around if he repeats 2014. I'm just saying we could've done a lot worse. Yet people act like he's horrible. The amount of vitriol spewed at Andy Dalton just seems way over the top. It's not like he's been failing in clutch situations for 12 years. 

Dalton isn't as good as some think, but he's not as bad as a lot of people think either. He's average, which Flacco, Eli and many others have proven is good enough. It all comes down to why you think he chokes in crunch time. I tend to wonder if any QB or player can be clutch under Marvin Lewis.

(06-27-2015, 01:10 AM)t3r3e3 Wrote: The problem with comparing Dalton to Eli and Flacco is that both have elevated their play in the postseason, and have carried their teams to postseason success and Super Bowl victories.  Dalton has never elevated his play or carried the team late in the year or in the postseason.  Are Flacco and Eli elite NFL QB's?  Nope.

(06-27-2015, 01:07 AM)t3r3e3 Wrote: Reggie Wayne is nowhere near the player he used to be.  At this stage he's a WR3.   Indy has better options at WR2 now (Andre Johnson), and younger WR's with more upside ( Donte Moncrief).   Fleener isn't even the best TE on Indy's roster; that title would fall on Dwayne Allen.  DeMarcus Ware is old and on the decline.  He's still a good player, but nowhere near the elite rush OLB's at this stage of his career.  Ware is bolstered by the fact that Von Miller commands double teams on the opposite side of the ball.  Woodhead is a role player best suited for 3rd down duties.  Julius Thomas isn't in the same league as Jimmy Graham or Gronk, and is in for a rude awakening after leaving Denver for Jacksonville.  Thomas is a good player, but is a suspect blocker, and doesn't have the receiving chops of Jimmy Graham.

(06-27-2015, 12:30 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I go back and forth on Dalton (my opinion kind of reflects his play), but if we were all told before the 2011 draft that we could have a 2nd round QB who would accomplish the following, we all would've said "yes, please":

- career 85.2 passer rating
- stabilized the position and helped lead the team to 4 straight playoff berths
- average 3700 pass yards and 27.5 total TD's 
- low amount of fumbles for a QB
- average ranking of 18th in passer rating
- total class act and good guy

Even with the playoff losses and the slightly high amount INT's, I think we all would've wanted to snap him up. Now I'm not saying we should be content with Dalton. It's ok to want more from him, and I wouldn't keep him around if he repeats 2014. I'm just saying we could've done a lot worse. Yet people act like he's horrible. The amount of vitriol spewed at Andy Dalton just seems way over the top. It's not like he's been failing in clutch situations for 12 years. 

Dalton isn't as good as some think, but he's not as bad as a lot of people think either. He's average, which Flacco, Eli and many others have proven is good enough. It all comes down to why you think he chokes in crunch time. I tend to wonder if any QB or player can be clutch under Marvin Lewis.

(06-27-2015, 01:10 AM)t3r3e3 Wrote: The problem with comparing Dalton to Eli and Flacco is that both have elevated their play in the postseason, and have carried their teams to postseason success and Super Bowl victories.  Dalton has never elevated his play or carried the team late in the year or in the postseason.  Are Flacco and Eli elite NFL QB's?  Nope.

(06-27-2015, 10:27 AM)67bengals Wrote: I have mentioned this before

I remember when everyone wanted to get rid of Anderson and then he had his great season of 1981.

Dalton's 4 year stats very similar to Anderson and just slightly below Carson and Boomer.

Lots of other players had bad games in all four playoff loses and last year we had too many people injured.

Need to put things together this year.

(06-27-2015, 01:10 AM)t3r3e3 Wrote: The problem with comparing Dalton to Eli and Flacco is that both have elevated their play in the postseason, and have carried their teams to postseason success and Super Bowl victories.  Dalton has never elevated his play or carried the team late in the year or in the postseason.  Are Flacco and Eli elite NFL QB's?  Nope.

(06-27-2015, 11:20 AM)Luvnit2 Wrote: I just don't understand hoping our starting QB stumbles so a 2nd year back up with no pre-season or regular season snaps takes over as the starter. I wanted AJ drafted and even though he was worthy of a round higher pick. I hope he becomes a HOF QB, but I will never hope he gets his shot this year because our QB failed to deliver.

(06-27-2015, 08:47 AM)McC Wrote: I wonder...how is it even possible to coach clutch out of a player?   If I think about any renowned clutch player--not just clutch on a Sunday afternoon in October, but clutch on the biggest of stages--and we all know who these players are, I can't imagine anyone or anything even dampening that, much less cancelling it altogether.

I just have trouble imagining what Marvin can be doing that can kill the spirit of a whole team all these times in a row.   Sooner or later, wouldn't a team of professionals just ignore the coach and go out there and go balls to the wall in spite of him.  When does the sick of this shit human spirit kick in with this franchise?

I don't put it on any one player.  I put it on each and every one.  Why can't they arrive at enough is enough?  It just defies logic.

(06-27-2015, 08:47 AM)McC Wrote: I wonder...how is it even possible to coach clutch out of a player?   If I think about any renowned clutch player--not just clutch on a Sunday afternoon in October, but clutch on the biggest of stages--and we all know who these players are, I can't imagine anyone or anything even dampening that, much less cancelling it altogether.

I just have trouble imagining what Marvin can be doing that can kill the spirit of a whole team all these times in a row.   Sooner or later, wouldn't a team of professionals just ignore the coach and go out there and go balls to the wall in spite of him.  When does the sick of this shit human spirit kick in with this franchise?

I don't put it on any one player.  I put it on each and every one.  Why can't they arrive at enough is enough?  It just defies logic.

(06-27-2015, 08:47 AM)McC Wrote: I wonder...how is it even possible to coach clutch out of a player?   If I think about any renowned clutch player--not just clutch on a Sunday afternoon in October, but clutch on the biggest of stages--and we all know who these players are, I can't imagine anyone or anything even dampening that, much less cancelling it altogether.

I just have trouble imagining what Marvin can be doing that can kill the spirit of a whole team all these times in a row.   Sooner or later, wouldn't a team of professionals just ignore the coach and go out there and go balls to the wall in spite of him.  When does the sick of this shit human spirit kick in with this franchise?

I don't put it on any one player.  I put it on each and every one.  Why can't they arrive at enough is enough?  It just defies logic.

(06-28-2015, 01:46 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I'm not sure what Marvin does that causes the team to fail every January, but I just can't view 6 similar losses as a coincidence. If I had to guess on why there is so much failure in January, here would be some of my guesses:

- Marv is too conservative - offense/defense play way too vanilla (and I'm not one of those guys that always says Marv is too conservative)
- Marv/the OC abandon the run too early
- Marvin teams always seem to lack fire (teams often take on the identity of their HC)

It also seems like this team has been drafting players who are quiet nice guys. Think Leon, AJ, Dalton, Whit, Zeitler, Gio, Geno, Dunlap, MJ, MLJ, etc etc. This entire squad is loaded with guys who fit that "quiet nice guy" mold. Then as soon as a player like Jeremy Hill opens his mouth, he gets scolded publicly by the OC. 

So IMO, scheme is partly to blame, and perhaps they aren't drafting enough fiery leader types. Or maybe the atmosphere within the organization isn't conducive to fiery leadership.

(06-28-2015, 01:46 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I'm not sure what Marvin does that causes the team to fail every January, but I just can't view 6 similar losses as a coincidence. If I had to guess on why there is so much failure in January, here would be some of my guesses:

- Marv is too conservative - offense/defense play way too vanilla (and I'm not one of those guys that always says Marv is too conservative)
- Marv/the OC abandon the run too early
- Marvin teams always seem to lack fire (teams often take on the identity of their HC)

It also seems like this team has been drafting players who are quiet nice guys. Think Leon, AJ, Dalton, Whit, Zeitler, Gio, Geno, Dunlap, MJ, MLJ, etc etc. This entire squad is loaded with guys who fit that "quiet nice guy" mold. Then as soon as a player like Jeremy Hill opens his mouth, he gets scolded publicly by the OC. 

So IMO, scheme is partly to blame, and perhaps they aren't drafting enough fiery leader types. Or maybe the atmosphere within the organization isn't conducive to fiery leadership.