(08-18-2017, 09:23 AM)Hoofhearted Wrote: So what you're saying is we should give the bengals brass a pass for the lost 90s because they drafted shitty players? 

Also, people ***** about the PO losses because winning one playoff game is better than none every day of the week. Even tho we lost the two Super Bowls we represented the AFC in, that's still a huge highlight for this franchise. Same applies here. Winning a playoff game or two would do wonders for the fans and even players.

(08-18-2017, 09:34 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: The biggest thing the rookie wage scale did was make it so the Bengals didn't have to negotiate contracts with rookies...thus ending holdouts. Smith was a long holdout. Justin Smith. Andre Smith. I'm sure there were others.

Rookies need to be in camp on time.

I hope you're right on the comparison to Atlanta.

(08-17-2017, 10:30 PM)jowczarski Wrote: Everyone has philosophical differences on how they believe teams should be run. To each his own.

I'll state two facts.

1. In my now three years covering the team, I've never heard - not once - anyone in the front office "cry poor," on or off the record. I've never heard from a player, or even an agent, that they were told "we don't have the money." Think about that -- agents! Public perception is what it is and I know the history, but from April, 2015 til now, I've never heard it.

2. Re: releasing "old/bad" players = free up cap space = buy more good players.

Here's the thing: the Bengals pay Leon Hall the final $9M in his last year with a bad back and diminishing ability (and a Peko, and a Maualuga, etc.) for a very good reason. They structure their contracts in a way unlike most NFL teams. They don't give out the giant guarantees and signing bonuses that inflate the cap and make agents look good. And in order to have players take those deals - Dalton, Green, Atkins, Dunlap, Whitworth, etc. - they have to have a good reference point that those players will see nearly every dollar of that deal.

An example to show this. Bear with me:

Julio Jones
Per OverTheCap.com (use them, by the way): "Jones signed a five year, $71.25 million contract extension with the Atlanta Falcons on August 31, 2015. Jones received $47 million in guarantees including $35.5 million in full guarantees. The guarantee consists of a $12 million signing bonus and Jones’ salary that is paid in 2015 and 2016. If Jone is on the roster the 3rd day of the 2016 League Year, his 2017 salary of $11.5 million will become fully guaranteed."

That means it's really a 2-year deal for $35.5.

Take DeMaryius Thomas: "Signed a five year, $70 million contract with the Denver Broncos on July 15, 2015. The contract contains $35 million in fully guaranteed salary and $43.5 million of total guarantees. According to Mike Klis, Thomas received an $11 million signing bonus and will earn a guaranteed roster bonus worth $6.5 million. His $13 million salary in 2016 is fully guaranteed and an $8.5 million salary is injury guaranteed and will vest to fully guaranteed in 2017. There is a $4 million option due in 2017 that will buy back the 2018 and 2019 league year. If the option is not exercised the final two years of the contract will void."

That means it's a 3-year deal for $43 million.

You're kind of getting the point with deals....

Now, A.J. Green - better than Thomas, and I would say he's better than Jones - but that is a worthy argument.

Anyway, Green signed "four year, $60 million contract extension with the Bengals on September 12, 2015. All contracts details are currently from a report on ProFootball Talk that indicates Green received $26.75 million in full guarantees including a $15 million roster bonus paid in 2015...If Green is on the roster on the 3rd day of the 2016 league year he will receive a $6 million roster bonus."

Basically, Green agreed to a 4-year deal for $26.7 million guaranteed.

Now, WHY in the world would A.J. Green do that? Because he knows that he will actually play out this contract. He will play through the 2019 season and collect every penny of the $69.376 of his deal from 2015-19. And he will NEVER be asked to restructure, take less money, or push it forward. And WHY would he believe that? Because guys like Leon Hall, Michael Johnson, Peko, etc. all lived out their contracts.

We'll see in 2019 if Jones or Thomas or Dez Bryant have A) have been cut B) have been asked to restructure and take less C) played it out and earned every dollar.

Maybe they will. But I can nearly 100% guarantee you Green will.

Long way to explain that, but hopefully it helps.

I can't speak to whether that's the "best way" to do things. Or the "right way." But If you want to sign a talent like Green for basically half of his market value in guaranteed dollars ... you better have some equity with agents and players that you'll live up to your end of the contract.

EDIT: Oh, the rollover/unused cap space. I also can't speak to if that's the best way, or the right way, or if they should max the cap every single year or not. It's football management theory. But I'll tell you this, not every team you see winning "goes all in" and maxes to the cap. They don't. Some might in certain years. But most don't. Trust me and the NFLPA, which tracks this stuff to the dollar, other teams have hoarded more cash over the years than the Bengals have.

(08-17-2017, 10:30 PM)jowczarski Wrote: Everyone has philosophical differences on how they believe teams should be run. To each his own.

I'll state two facts.

1. In my now three years covering the team, I've never heard - not once - anyone in the front office "cry poor," on or off the record. I've never heard from a player, or even an agent, that they were told "we don't have the money." Think about that -- agents! Public perception is what it is and I know the history, but from April, 2015 til now, I've never heard it.

2. Re: releasing "old/bad" players = free up cap space = buy more good players.

Here's the thing: the Bengals pay Leon Hall the final $9M in his last year with a bad back and diminishing ability (and a Peko, and a Maualuga, etc.) for a very good reason. They structure their contracts in a way unlike most NFL teams. They don't give out the giant guarantees and signing bonuses that inflate the cap and make agents look good. And in order to have players take those deals - Dalton, Green, Atkins, Dunlap, Whitworth, etc. - they have to have a good reference point that those players will see nearly every dollar of that deal.

An example to show this. Bear with me:

Julio Jones
Per OverTheCap.com (use them, by the way): "Jones signed a five year, $71.25 million contract extension with the Atlanta Falcons on August 31, 2015. Jones received $47 million in guarantees including $35.5 million in full guarantees. The guarantee consists of a $12 million signing bonus and Jones’ salary that is paid in 2015 and 2016. If Jone is on the roster the 3rd day of the 2016 League Year, his 2017 salary of $11.5 million will become fully guaranteed."

That means it's really a 2-year deal for $35.5.

Take DeMaryius Thomas: "Signed a five year, $70 million contract with the Denver Broncos on July 15, 2015. The contract contains $35 million in fully guaranteed salary and $43.5 million of total guarantees. According to Mike Klis, Thomas received an $11 million signing bonus and will earn a guaranteed roster bonus worth $6.5 million. His $13 million salary in 2016 is fully guaranteed and an $8.5 million salary is injury guaranteed and will vest to fully guaranteed in 2017. There is a $4 million option due in 2017 that will buy back the 2018 and 2019 league year. If the option is not exercised the final two years of the contract will void."

That means it's a 3-year deal for $43 million.

You're kind of getting the point with deals....

Now, A.J. Green - better than Thomas, and I would say he's better than Jones - but that is a worthy argument.

Anyway, Green signed "four year, $60 million contract extension with the Bengals on September 12, 2015. All contracts details are currently from a report on ProFootball Talk that indicates Green received $26.75 million in full guarantees including a $15 million roster bonus paid in 2015...If Green is on the roster on the 3rd day of the 2016 league year he will receive a $6 million roster bonus."

Basically, Green agreed to a 4-year deal for $26.7 million guaranteed.

Now, WHY in the world would A.J. Green do that? Because he knows that he will actually play out this contract. He will play through the 2019 season and collect every penny of the $69.376 of his deal from 2015-19. And he will NEVER be asked to restructure, take less money, or push it forward. And WHY would he believe that? Because guys like Leon Hall, Michael Johnson, Peko, etc. all lived out their contracts.

We'll see in 2019 if Jones or Thomas or Dez Bryant have A) have been cut B) have been asked to restructure and take less C) played it out and earned every dollar.

Maybe they will. But I can nearly 100% guarantee you Green will.

Long way to explain that, but hopefully it helps.

I can't speak to whether that's the "best way" to do things. Or the "right way." But If you want to sign a talent like Green for basically half of his market value in guaranteed dollars ... you better have some equity with agents and players that you'll live up to your end of the contract.

EDIT: Oh, the rollover/unused cap space. I also can't speak to if that's the best way, or the right way, or if they should max the cap every single year or not. It's football management theory. But I'll tell you this, not every team you see winning "goes all in" and maxes to the cap. They don't. Some might in certain years. But most don't. Trust me and the NFLPA, which tracks this stuff to the dollar, other teams have hoarded more cash over the years than the Bengals have.

(08-18-2017, 01:22 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: If we are still dwelling on the lack of success of the 90s, that is a problem.  Why?  What do you possibly get from hanging on to that anger other than depressed?

I agree that they need to win a playoff game, but just because they haven't doesn't put it all on the owner.  Players play, and owners own...they were good enough to get there and win their division at times, but didn't execute when it mattered most.  Coaching, the players, the ownership all take blame here, but not just the owner.  Blaming everything that has happened in terms of not winning a playoff game for a long time on the management is ignorant.  

(08-18-2017, 02:38 PM)Hoofhearted Wrote: I'm not sure why you're implying I'm angry or depressed about a sports team not winning. I'm simply stating facts. If that bothers you, I'm not sure what to tell you. But do me a favor and not assume something I'm not.
But it's extremely valid if you really take into consideration what happened then. And what's happened (or not happened) since then. I'll give you the respect to form your own conclusions and that's your provocative.

(08-18-2017, 02:49 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Since we've last won a playoff games...23 teams have been to the Super Bowl. 23 eams!

We'll be celebrating like there's no tomorrow from 1 playoff win...but 26 teams have been to the Super Bowl over that span!

(08-17-2017, 10:30 PM)jowczarski Wrote: Everyone has philosophical differences on how they believe teams should be run. To each his own.

I'll state two facts.

1. In my now three years covering the team, I've never heard - not once - anyone in the front office "cry poor," on or off the record. I've never heard from a player, or even an agent, that they were told "we don't have the money." Think about that -- agents! Public perception is what it is and I know the history, but from April, 2015 til now, I've never heard it.

2. Re: releasing "old/bad" players = free up cap space = buy more good players.

Here's the thing: the Bengals pay Leon Hall the final $9M in his last year with a bad back and diminishing ability (and a Peko, and a Maualuga, etc.) for a very good reason. They structure their contracts in a way unlike most NFL teams. They don't give out the giant guarantees and signing bonuses that inflate the cap and make agents look good. And in order to have players take those deals - Dalton, Green, Atkins, Dunlap, Whitworth, etc. - they have to have a good reference point that those players will see nearly every dollar of that deal.

An example to show this. Bear with me:

Julio Jones
Per OverTheCap.com (use them, by the way): "Jones signed a five year, $71.25 million contract extension with the Atlanta Falcons on August 31, 2015. Jones received $47 million in guarantees including $35.5 million in full guarantees. The guarantee consists of a $12 million signing bonus and Jones’ salary that is paid in 2015 and 2016. If Jone is on the roster the 3rd day of the 2016 League Year, his 2017 salary of $11.5 million will become fully guaranteed."

That means it's really a 2-year deal for $35.5.

Take DeMaryius Thomas: "Signed a five year, $70 million contract with the Denver Broncos on July 15, 2015. The contract contains $35 million in fully guaranteed salary and $43.5 million of total guarantees. According to Mike Klis, Thomas received an $11 million signing bonus and will earn a guaranteed roster bonus worth $6.5 million. His $13 million salary in 2016 is fully guaranteed and an $8.5 million salary is injury guaranteed and will vest to fully guaranteed in 2017. There is a $4 million option due in 2017 that will buy back the 2018 and 2019 league year. If the option is not exercised the final two years of the contract will void."

That means it's a 3-year deal for $43 million.

You're kind of getting the point with deals....

Now, A.J. Green - better than Thomas, and I would say he's better than Jones - but that is a worthy argument.

Anyway, Green signed "four year, $60 million contract extension with the Bengals on September 12, 2015. All contracts details are currently from a report on ProFootball Talk that indicates Green received $26.75 million in full guarantees including a $15 million roster bonus paid in 2015...If Green is on the roster on the 3rd day of the 2016 league year he will receive a $6 million roster bonus."

Basically, Green agreed to a 4-year deal for $26.7 million guaranteed.

Now, WHY in the world would A.J. Green do that? Because he knows that he will actually play out this contract. He will play through the 2019 season and collect every penny of the $69.376 of his deal from 2015-19. And he will NEVER be asked to restructure, take less money, or push it forward. And WHY would he believe that? Because guys like Leon Hall, Michael Johnson, Peko, etc. all lived out their contracts.

We'll see in 2019 if Jones or Thomas or Dez Bryant have A) have been cut B) have been asked to restructure and take less C) played it out and earned every dollar.

Maybe they will. But I can nearly 100% guarantee you Green will.

Long way to explain that, but hopefully it helps.

I can't speak to whether that's the "best way" to do things. Or the "right way." But If you want to sign a talent like Green for basically half of his market value in guaranteed dollars ... you better have some equity with agents and players that you'll live up to your end of the contract.

EDIT: Oh, the rollover/unused cap space. I also can't speak to if that's the best way, or the right way, or if they should max the cap every single year or not. It's football management theory. But I'll tell you this, not every team you see winning "goes all in" and maxes to the cap. They don't. Some might in certain years. But most don't. Trust me and the NFLPA, which tracks this stuff to the dollar, other teams have hoarded more cash over the years than the Bengals have.

(08-18-2017, 03:33 PM)bambino5130 Wrote: Now if you want to talk about the organizations perception of being cheap, here are few thoughts on that topic. The talk that comes from former players who leave for FA on how they are treated in Cincy compared to their new destinations. Paul Brown Stadium, many things to say here. Are they the only team to not sell off their Stadium Naming rights? Who Cares really?The absolute screwing over of Hamilton county tax payers to pay for the stadium and maintenance

(08-18-2017, 01:46 PM)ochocincos Wrote: My issues are:

1) Their decision making on which player(s) to sign in FA. They sign some mediocre role players rather than going for what many would consider high-impact players or they end up extending an aging subpar player an extra year or two because they don't have a "proven" player to take his spot. The team is not often willing to stick a young player in as a starter and instead have some somewhat serviceable veteran start instead until somehow that young player proves he's better? And in the rare occasion where they do actually try that (e.g. Ogbuehi), it appears (so far anyway) that they picked someone who was either bad and/or not ready.

2) They always seem to be planning for future signings, some of which end up not coming to fruition and biting them in the butt (e.g. Whitworth and Marvin Jones). What's wrong with being aggressive once in awhile and accepting that you might have some down years? If the finances aren't hurting, there shouldn't be such apprehension to being more aggressive occasionally. It just seems this team is more worried about reverting "back to the 90's" rather than trying to change some things up to improve.

3) They put too much stock into the players they draft over outside players. IIRC, they have the most drafted players on their roster compared to other teams, but it's not achieved what the fans want to see now...a playoff victory.

4) They need to invest more into scouting and cycle in some new staff every now and then if things get stagnant (like now).

5) They seem out of touch with their fan base and/or think they know better than the fans.

(08-18-2017, 04:18 PM)sandwedge Wrote: Ok your #5 point is a little out there.. 

(08-18-2017, 04:19 PM)ochocincos Wrote: How so?

(08-18-2017, 04:28 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: You have won the exact same amount of playoff games as the Bengals GM over the past 26+ years!

(08-18-2017, 04:05 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: I agree it happens other places Synric...but it's bad no matter how you slice it.

Think of the poor state healthcare and other programs are in. That money could be invested and used for other things.

$900 million of tax dollars. 0 playoff wins. That's a TERRIBLE return on investment!

(08-18-2017, 04:35 PM)Synric Wrote: Lol that's getting into the realm of politics which I try to stay clear of most of the time lol. 



I just know if a city wants an NFL team tax payers foot part of the Bill. That's the reason my state of WV doesn't have an NFL team is because of the low cost of living lower wage scale and low population doesn't put out as much in taxes. 

(08-18-2017, 04:43 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: You have the Texans there for part of their training camp though. That counts for something right?