Bengals are the "perfect storm" for heated debate.

Bengals are the "perfect storm" for heated debate. - Printable Version

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RE: Bengals are the "perfect storm" for heated debate. - Wes Mantooth - 09-13-2015

(09-12-2015, 12:57 PM)fredtoast Wrote: It is very, very rare for a guy who is consistently making the playoffs to be fired.

[Image: JohnFox_crop_north.jpg?w=630&h=420&q=75]

Here's 3 examples just within the last 3 years. Perhaps not as rare as previously thought?

RE: Bengals are the "perfect storm" for heated debate. - Nately120 - 09-13-2015

(09-12-2015, 11:07 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: We've essentially been at the hump since 2005 with a slight recess 2007-2010...but even then, the team was never that bad just QB-less

I truly believe 2005 was our year. And it would have changed everything about this franchise.

I don't think this team has been QB-less since Marvin's 2nd year. A HC with QBs of Palmer and Dalton's caliber should have won something by now. 2005 was a tragedy and 2008 we were QB-less but if you give a HC two decent QBs for his run and 9 years of 16+ games from your starting QB you should win something.

Marvin has it pretty easy compared to the guys who get stuck coaching 3 QBs per year in Cleveland or pointless re-treads in Houston/NY/Buffalo etc. Marvin also never got stuck having to make chicken salad out of chicken ca-ca via Mike Brown falling in love with some bust and selling the farm to get him ala Akili Smith or the DC football team's coaches. Neither Palmer nor Dalton were top QBs outside of a single year for each but for 0 playoff wins and a mostly clean bill of QB health I think he's come up short. That's what gets people disillusioned; consistency AND disappointment.

Then again, the Bengals winning a playoff game is apparently like another team winning the Super Bowl, so I guess 4 straight one-n-dones makes us a watered-down version of the 90s Bills.

RE: Bengals are the "perfect storm" for heated debate. - The Caped Crusader - 09-13-2015

I have too many friends in general that quickly throw Dalton under the bus. That interception that went off AJ's hands, so many people blamed Dalton? Like what?

I think majority of the blame, if there is any to go around, is to go on Marvin.

RE: Bengals are the "perfect storm" for heated debate. - Daddy-O - 09-13-2015

(09-12-2015, 01:47 PM)PApinhead Wrote: Very good post Fred. I especially liked the next to last two paragraphs and hope that we can remember that we all want our Bengals to win the Super Bowl, and like you said, we just have different ideas on how to get there.

I love this board and discussing our Bengals, but I get tired of the snide remarks, insults, etc... just because we disagree on how to get there.

And if we could somehow win that elusive Super Bowl the basis for Fred's original post will all come to pass.... AD and Marvin will suddenly be the saviors. ThumbsUp

RE: Bengals are the "perfect storm" for heated debate. - reuben.ahmed - 09-13-2015

It is difficult to look at your favorite team objectively, but that is what we all can do as fans (since we have no input into the actual game for the most part other than cheering or jeering in the stadium).

RE: Bengals are the "perfect storm" for heated debate. - Brownshoe - 09-13-2015

(09-13-2015, 02:53 AM)Wes Mantooth Wrote:

Here's 3 examples just within the last 3 years. Perhaps not as rare as previously thought?

Andy Reid was 0-1 in the playoffs the last 3 years on the eagles

Fox is the only example that really applies

Harbaugh wanted out of SF

RE: Bengals are the "perfect storm" for heated debate. - HarleyDog - 09-13-2015

"Perfect storm" thread title itself is a good analagy of our beloved bengals. No matter how many times I watched that movie, the ship always sinks at the end.

RE: Bengals are the "perfect storm" for heated debate. - fredtoast - 09-13-2015

(09-13-2015, 10:40 AM)Brownshoe Wrote: Andy Reid was 0-1 in the playoffs the last 3 years on the eagles

Fox is the only example that really applies

Harbaugh wanted out of SF

Reid got fired for going 12-20 his last two years in Philly.

Harbaugh left after going 8-8 and missing the playoffs.

So, yes, I will stick to my statement that it is very very rare for a HC to get replaced when he is making the playoffs every year. It has happened, but it is a rare exception rather than the general rule.

RE: Bengals are the "perfect storm" for heated debate. - Wes Mantooth - 09-13-2015

(09-13-2015, 11:29 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Reid got fired for going 12-20 his last two years in Philly.

Harbaugh left after going 8-8 and missing the playoffs.

So, yes, I will stick to my statement that it is very very rare for a HC to get replaced when he is making the playoffs every year. It has happened, but it is a rare exception rather than the general rule.

Although there's never been another coach that's gone 0-6 either. These other coaches, who are "consistently" making the playoffs, have won in the playoffs at some point. So you can't really compare Marvin to any one of these other coaches, who are rarely fired. He's the only one, EVER, to lose that many out of the gate.

Andy Reid, John Fox, Harbaugh are just example of guys who had way more success than Marvin who got shit canned. Love Smith had a better run, making the NFC Championship twice, and he was fired after going to 10-6. Josh McDaniels went 8-8 in his first and only complete season. He even won a playoff game. He didn't make it to the end of year 2. Todd Haley went 10-6 in year 2, after taking over a 2-14 season. He was fired in year 3 after going 7-9.

I guess my point is anyone else Marvin would have been fired. In 2008. In 2010. In 2013. Yet he still here. It's unprecedented. You can 't compare to anyone, because no team in the history of league has been stupid enough to keep a coach for well over a decade, who can't even win one stinking playoff game.

RE: Bengals are the "perfect storm" for heated debate. - Luvnit2 - 09-13-2015

(09-13-2015, 11:40 AM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Although there's never been another coach that's gone 0-6 either. These other coaches, who are "consistently" making the playoffs, have won in the playoffs at some point. So you can't really compare Marvin to any one of these other coaches, who are rarely fired. He's the only one, EVER, to lose that many out of the gate.

Andy Reid, John Fox, Harbaugh are just example of guys who had way more success than Marvin who got shit canned. Love Smith had a better run, making the NFC Championship twice, and he was fired after going to 10-6. Josh McDaniels went 8-8 in his first and only complete season. He even won a playoff game. He didn't make it to the end of year 2. Todd Haley went 10-6 in year 2, after taking over a 2-14 season. He was fired in year 3 after going 7-9.

I guess my point is anyone else Marvin would have been fired. In 2008. In 2010. In 2013. Yet he still here. It's unprecedented. You can 't compare to anyone, because no team in the history of league has been stupid enough to keep a coach for well over a decade, who can't even win one stinking playoff game.

All you are doing is confirming Fred is exactly correct. There are great arguments on both sides.

His other point was it is wrong to take the attacks personal as some like to do when the person they are debating do not agree with them.

This a great thread Fred and your thoughts are spot on.

RE: Bengals are the "perfect storm" for heated debate. - fredtoast - 09-13-2015

(09-13-2015, 11:40 AM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Although there's never been another coach that's gone 0-6 either. These other coaches, who are "consistently" making the playoffs, have won in the playoffs at some point. So you can't really compare Marvin to any one of these other coaches, who are rarely fired. He's the only one, EVER, to lose that many out of the gate.

Andy Reid, John Fox, Harbaugh are just example of guys who had way more success than Marvin who got shit canned. Love Smith had a better run, making the NFC Championship twice, and he was fired after going to 10-6. Josh McDaniels went 8-8 in his first and only complete season. He even won a playoff game. He didn't make it to the end of year 2. Todd Haley went 10-6 in year 2, after taking over a 2-14 season. He was fired in year 3 after going 7-9.

I guess my point is anyone else Marvin would have been fired. In 2008. In 2010. In 2013. Yet he still here. It's unprecedented. You can 't compare to anyone, because no team in the history of league has been stupid enough to keep a coach for well over a decade, who can't even win one stinking playoff game.

Here is my take.

2008.....Maybe about half the teams in the league would have fired him. At this point Marvin still had a little glow left from bringing the Bengals back from the worst team in the league. Many people still placed most of the blame for the Bengals failure on Mike Brown.

2010....Most of the teams in the NFL would have fired Marvin at this point. I think Marvin staying was the reason we lost stars like Johnathan Joseph and Carson Palmer.

2013...I say a majority of teams would have kept Marvin. He was coming off his best regular season ever when he was 4-0 against other playoff teams including the Patriots, Colts, and Packers (with Rodgers). And the Bengals had improved for 3 straight years.

But the big point is that you can't say the Bengals are stupid to keep Lewis because many of those other teams who were quick to fire a coach got worse instead of better. There are plenty of examples of coaches who took years to win their first playoff game. Marvin has gone longer than any other, but that does not mean it is impossible for him to break through.

Good coaches are rarely looking for a job. I'd say Fox was the only elite coach to be available in the past few years.
Many people point to Mike Zimmer, but Lewis was having too much success to go with an unproven head coach. I like Zimmer. I hope he wins a Super Bowl someday. But I am not sure that he will be a great head coach. Some great DCs have made great head coaches, but others like Buddy Ryan and Dick LeBeau have failed. Plus Mike's defenses didn't play that great in the postseason either.

So, while I have to agree that Marvin probably should have been fired after the 2010 season I am not willing to fire him now based on what he did 6 years ago.

RE: Bengals are the "perfect storm" for heated debate. - Luvnit2 - 09-13-2015

(09-13-2015, 02:49 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: You say anything good about Dalton/Marv = you're a homer.

Say anything bad = you're a hater.

There is no in-between for some. It's not even about reality anymore. They've spent so long arguing with certain posters that they start to resent them. At that point, they stop discussing things reasonably and it becomes all about proving so-and-so wrong.

This is also a great post.

I would add your comments relating to respect are escalated in a negative way by those who constantly hurl personal insults questioning intelligence or a person's logic because they disagree.

RE: Bengals are the "perfect storm" for heated debate. - masonbengals fan - 09-13-2015

Sure seems that way. It's one way or the other. No middle ground.

RE: Bengals are the "perfect storm" for heated debate. - fredtoast - 09-13-2015

(09-12-2015, 10:54 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: The hardest part is, when you try to be balanced about it both sides come at you and it is impossible to have a real discussion.

A problem I have had for years is that if I dispute a claim that player/coach X is "the worst in the league" then I am called a homer who thinks none of our players can do any wrong.

While I am sure that the same thing is true with every team there are certain players that get a bad rap with the home fans. And once that mythology gets woven into the talk radio and message board communities it is hard to shake. Fans here will deny it now, but for years when leon hall was playing at an elite level many people here still hated on him because he "struggled with speedy receivers". And it took Whitworth a few years of elite play before he even got the respect he deserved from his own fans. He was one of the best LTs in the league for years and I would still see people here calling for him to be moved back to guard because he "struggled with speed rushers". Justin Smith was an elite player who got treated like trash by a lot of people here. Gresham was not great, but he was another good player who was treated like a bum. Some people here would argue that a couple of years ago when we had a top 10 rush defense 3 of our front 7 were the worst in the league at their position (Peko, Geathers, Maualuga). Kyle Cook showed up on the "Pro Bowl Snubs" among national media, but around here he was horrible.

So, while you will never see me saying that Cook, Geathers, Maualuga, Peko, and Gresham are anything more than good solid starters, I often get accused of that. And it is just because I defend them against claims that they are "the worst in the league".

I think all fans see their players as the worst because they see them on a regular basis and see the same problem over and over again. But while watching other teams we see the same number of mistakes, but they just seem random. You have to watch the same team repeatedly to see the patterns, but there are lots of other players on other teams who have patterns of worse play. We just don't see those players mess up on a regular basis.

RE: Bengals are the "perfect storm" for heated debate. - Wes Mantooth - 09-13-2015

(09-13-2015, 12:39 PM)fredtoast Wrote: A problem I have had for years is that if I dispute a claim that player/coach X is "the worst in the league" then I am called a homer who thinks none of our players can do any wrong.

Care to give an example(s) of which players and what posters this would apply to?

The only player that I can think of being called near or at the worst in the league, was Rey Mauluga two years ago. I did see a number of people refer to Gesham as towards the bottom of the league, which was just stupid.

Curious to see what you think. I don't recall too many people ever using the description you quoted for a player or coach.

RE: Bengals are the "perfect storm" for heated debate. - Shake n Blake - 09-13-2015

(09-13-2015, 10:05 AM)reuben.ahmed Wrote: It is difficult to look at your favorite team objectively, but that is what we all can do as fans (since we have no input into the actual game for the most part other than cheering or jeering in the stadium).

It's funny, I try to be as objective as possible on here, but when I see opposing fans bashing our team (on PFT for example), I go full homer.

It's almost like family. You can talk about family problems with other family members, but if someone outside your circle makes a snide remark about your family, it's fighting time.

RE: Bengals are the "perfect storm" for heated debate. - masonbengals fan - 09-13-2015

That's right. We have to have each others back.