(10-18-2019, 10:21 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Also, I saw the stats that some good coaches started 0-6...but did those coaches have all the responsibilities that ZT has?

(10-19-2019, 01:02 AM)ah5 Wrote: If he won't relinquish his play calling duties let him go.  I hate head coaches that call plays, If you want to call plays stay an OC.

Sent from my BND-L34 using Tapatalk

(10-19-2019, 12:03 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: The whole talent/coaching yin/yang thing is tricky.

When coaches are bad, the drafting looks bad. And vice versa. Now coaches could be good and be dealt bad drafted players too.

I tend to think the issues here are more coaching than bad players...especially on defense. When you see guys PFF ratings drastically drop, it's coaching/scheme. And to those that say the LB's make the entire defense bad...the LB's were bad last year too, and the secondary and DLine ratings were much higher.

But, we don't have a LB on our roster capable of playing Nickle on a good team. It's crazy that the coaches don't switch our scheme to using 3 LB's and putt Pratt out there too.

They may actually be forced too now that Jackson and Kirkpatrick are out.

(10-18-2019, 10:59 PM)psychdoctor Wrote: The narrative that players have regressed is bona fide but one must ask why.  Is it the coaching or is it some other variables like losing a dozen games in a row.  It could be schemes which would indicate coaching by coordinators.  But this O-Line has been porous for a while, the talent along the OL and backers just isn't there.  Dalton is a year older and injuries appear convenient for some players.  Makes me wonder.

(10-18-2019, 10:26 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Yeah...I mean hopefully we see some improvement...but if not I think we have to.

Maybe we can get a new coach in that scenario that could salvage guys.

I feel like we need an OC that calls plays for sure. ZT doesn't have it. Let him focus on the big picture. Let an OC call plays.

(10-19-2019, 10:27 AM)OswaldsLegacy Wrote: Again with just focusing on the guys in front... the HC, DC and OC.  Special Teams seems to be ignored though.

How about Deronte Jones?  Secondary coach.  He has Dre Kirkpatrick, Jackson and when healthy Dennard.  He has many years experience and was here last year as well.  He is just as responsible for the failures on defense as the DC and HC is.

Robert Livingston?  Secondary coach.  Has Bates and Williams and Fedj.  5 years experience all with Cincinnati, 4th year as a DB coach and 2nd with the safeties.

Bob Bicknell?  WRs... how is it that outside of Green and Boyd none of the other WRs seem to improve?

Let's not just look at the top 3 guys.  There are many that should be scrutinized.

(10-18-2019, 10:26 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Yeah...I mean hopefully we see some improvement...but if not I think we have to.

Maybe we can get a new coach in that scenario that could salvage guys.

I feel like we need an OC that calls plays for sure. ZT doesn't have it. Let him focus on the big picture. Let an OC call plays.

(10-19-2019, 07:16 AM)Wyche Wrote: *Cough* Sam Wyche *Cough*



Look, we're not getting blown out either, save the SF and Pitt tilts. It's not like it's total disarray. In fact, a couple of games were a missed FG, an unlucky bounce, etc away from wins. This with an oline that currently features a 4th string LT that is actually a G, 3rd string LG, a good C, a decent RG, and our much maligned RT. WR1 is out, WR 3 is out, and it's a brand new offensive concept to boot. The defense? Wasn't it shitty last year too? What was done to address that in the off-season?

You kinda act like we went from Super Bowl to 0-6. This wasn't a good team to begin with. We struck fools gold at the beginning of last season, a fumble recovery in Indy saved a win, two fluke defensive plays against Miami provided a win.....and that was with a healthy offense. When the injuries mounted , the wheels fell off.

(10-18-2019, 10:47 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Yep

To bad the Steelers spanking our little bottoms blue every year doesn't trigger him.

(10-19-2019, 10:32 AM)BengalsRocker Wrote: I know on this board we'll have some posters saying that we're Taylor haters because of negative posts about the offense.

Yet we have knowledgeable guys like Steve Young on national TV echoing the same perceptions about ZT.

(10-19-2019, 10:39 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: And those are good points, that tie into this discussion in a different way: I remember reading that ZT was evaluating last years roster. I think we all get the offensive line issues with Glenn/Williams/Boling. (Although people were saying Boling was overrated in the offseason. And that Glenn wasn't a good Tackle. etc. But now they're HUGE losses.) Although, the Hart, Miller, Hopkins part of the line is 100% what they planned for in the offseason...so when 60% of the line is intact, we still can't run the ball.

But, Taylor and staff presumably signed off on bringing back Preston Brown. They designed the 2 LB scheme and put Brown and Vigil in it. They obviously targeted BW Webb as the Nickle CB that would essentially be used instead of a 3rd LB.

I feel like he is a bit young and naieve. A veteran coach would likely be like, I want to play Nickle. I need LB's with speed! Brown isn't that guy.

We can talk about how no one would succeed here because of personnel...but the coaching staff had atleast some hand in determining the personnel and they had total control over scheme.

It is interesting you dismiss last years early season wins as fools gold as you previously talked about how 4 of our losses were close. And I'd argue that a few of our losses this year are wins with better coaching staffs...better playcalls. Our staff uses the SAME gameplan EVERY game. Guys like Shannahan adjust each week to the opponent.

And the whole point of my thread isn't to say fire Taylor. But shouldn't we see improvement? IF we don't...if guys keep getting worse...we might be in worse shape next year. In that scenario, isn't a coach doing more damage than good?

(10-19-2019, 11:52 AM)Wyche Wrote: I think you'll get a better idea of my thoughts on the game plan in the other thread where you mentioned that.... we're in agreement there, so I won't rehash it here.

As to last year's 4-1 start, I must admit I believed we were better than we actually were.

For the record, I'm not saying that NO ONE could succeed here. I'm sure there are some championship caliber coaches that could have a couple, if not more, wins by now. No question in my mind. That said, I expected the ceiling here to be 8-8 under a rookie HC with leftover scraps as subordinates after not being able to announce the hiring until February. Antiquated approach in FO, sketchy personnel with bad depth, and maybe misjudged talent on the coach's behalf. Then again, maybe the FO wanted an evaluation of the roster in his scheme before they went all hung ho purging the roster....you know, MB and all. I think it's the perfect shit storm for ushering in a new era with an inexperienced HC running the ship to boot. 

We have the same coaches on the back end of the defense where you point to the biggest regression, so that's a little odd to me.  

(10-19-2019, 12:00 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: I've said all along last years start was fools gold. The offense had like 2qtrs and a couple good drives in all those games and the rest of the time struggled, a lot. 

I know, I know you can say this about a bunch of games but we could easily have lost the Colts game and probably should have lost Dolphins game ! The D, as bad as it was won both of those games.

(10-19-2019, 07:16 AM)WychesWarrior Wrote: *Cough* Sam Wyche *Cough*



Look, we're not getting blown out either, save the SF and Pitt tilts. It's not like it's total disarray. In fact, a couple of games were a missed FG, an unlucky bounce, etc away from wins. This with an oline that currently features a 4th string LT that is actually a G, 3rd string LG, a good C, a decent RG, and our much maligned RT. WR1 is out, WR 3 is out, and it's a brand new offensive concept to boot. The defense? Wasn't it shitty last year too? What was done to address that in the off-season?

You kinda act like we went from Super Bowl to 0-6. This wasn't a good team to begin with. We struck fools gold at the beginning of last season, a fumble recovery in Indy saved a win, two fluke defensive plays against Miami provided a win.....and that was with a healthy offense. When the injuries mounted , the wheels fell off.