(01-21-2020, 09:11 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: So I thought I'd show a little love to Tate here with this thread. I'm not so sure he really gets talked about enough on here, and he definitely gets slept on by the media. He's one of a plethora of reasons I want no part of AJ Green returning on a multi-year deal. Here's why, IMHO, I think he may be overlooked...

---His core numbers for this season: 40 catches, 575 yards 1TD.  On paper these may not be eye-catching, but if you dig a little deeper I think you'll find they're actually quite impressive.

He did not play in week 1, and hardly saw action in week 2 (only 33% of snaps). It was not until week 3 he was inserted into a significant role. He also missed parts of the Oakland and Cleveland games due to injury and early exits. He then missed the final 3 games after being IR'd.

So what does this tell me/you? Tate missed the entirety of 4 games and significant parts of 3 others. If you project out these stats over a 16 game season (adding a conservative 5 games of missed production) they look like this... 54 catches, 815 yards.

--- While he didn't score much, I don't think that is a concern. Scoring is not only not a weakness but it is a strength.

Looking at his frame, 6'5, 230 it's obvious he's a red zone threat just by sheer size. But again, if you dig deeper it's even more apparent.

This was considered his strength coming out of FSU. Why? Despite only starting 8 games his last year, due to a separated shoulder, he managed 10 TD's.

The lack of TDs last year may stand out on a stat sheet but I don't think it's all that telling in regards to skill. I think it can be easily explained due to lack of opportunites and situational factors (Bad team with below average scoring, bad play-calling, undefined role and missed time, etc.)

---His YPC, at 14.4 is strong, especially for a player who dropped due to perceived lack of speed.

He averaged almost 3 full yards more per reception than a more than capable Tyler Boyd. Outside of the one-trick pony that is John Ross, Tate had the highest YPC on the team.

---40 times are over-valued and don't translate well...

If you wondered why a guy with this size, coming out of FSU, falls to where he did, the answer is simple: His 40 time. He ran a 4.68.

The problem with this is that 40 times are way over-valued. Running in shorts is not the same as running in full gear. Running in a routine drill, out of a stance, on a track, and to the sound of a gun is not the same as running in a game, out of standing position, on a grass field, to the sound of a QB in a high-stress envioroment. Nor do players run straight routes, without interference. You are getting checked at the line, and often are breaking inside or outside around the defender.

Keep in mind, Anquan Boldin ran a 4.71. TJ Housh didn't even run at the combine and is supposedly in similar territory. Jerry Rice and Terrell Owens both reportably ran in the 4.6's.

---His age and experience. He came out early as a Junior. He didn't see exactly a ton of starts in his 3 years either.  He also saw very limited action in his rookie year. He was then thrust in his role late this offseason because of AJ.

With a year of significant experience and a full off-season of a defined role, I think it will help. All things considered, I think he did phenominal last year.

---Intagibles. I think we can all agree he's a pretty tough kid. He made a slew of tough catches, he bounced back from a brutal hit, he never shyed away from going across the middle. What else?

His blocking, for me, was encouraging. He looked to be willing to take on that aspect of the game much like a TJ or Sanu did. Some receivers want to run their routes and may throw a half-arsed block here and there, but really don't want to mix it up a bunch. (Cough: John Ross) Tate laid the wood a few times.

Also, I found this interesting. Tate only had 6 penalties on the year, and they were all holds or blocking penalties. He had no false starts, no lining up offsides, no personal fouls, no PI's.  Basically I take that as zero mental penalties, all effort penalties.

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I'll wrap it up. Obviously I like the kid. I like tough players. I'll take tough players over track-stars. (Tate vs. Ross). To me Tate is a football player and Ross is not. I think Tate was completely overlooked coming out and was a steal. And I'm really anxious to see him develop. I'm also concerned about taking reps from him and wasting cap dollars by bringing AJ back. Save the money for OL, and let this kid play with Boyd as your 1/2.

(01-22-2020, 12:27 AM)BFritz21 Wrote: I think him and Aj would be a nightmare on the field at the same time, especially in the red zone (jump balls galore), and especially with Mixon making teams load the box.  Leaving either one of them single-covered without a safety over the top, especially with a Qb like Burrow, leaves the defense vary open to a big play.

If you don't load the box, Mixon will bust off 6 yards a pop.

(01-22-2020, 10:00 AM)Au165 Wrote: It does, and the answer is no. You don't need separation if you can put your body between the defender and the ball. 

Guys who got less separation then Auden Tate this year...

Kenny Golladay
Mike Williams
Terry McLaurin
Preston Williams
DeVante Parker
Darius SLayton
Julio Jones
Golden Tate
Robby Anderson
AJ Brown
Michael Gallup
Allen Robinson

Mike Evans had .1 yard separation more and DK Metcalf had .2 just for a little more context.

I think he will be fine getting the separation he gets. He is still a young receiver who needs more reps (and catchable bally), but as a 7th round pick is already producing well relative to capital spent on him.

(01-22-2020, 02:31 PM)Whatever Wrote: What do the #2-6 teams in the draft order have in common?

They all have at least one guy on your list.

In fact, the only guy on this list that played for a team with a winning record is AJ Brown, and he tied for the league lead in 40+yard receptions with 8(Mike Williams also had 8).

The majority of these guys are on bad teams and get forced the ball due to a lack of weapons and/or being down on the scoreboard.  Several of them were also #1's on bad teams and saw a lot of double coverage as a result.

There are times when the QB has to thread the needle, but forcing him to do it over and over again just isn't a recipe for winning football.  A lot of the tools that made big, slow WR's effective in the past like push offs and using the DB to elevate have been cracked down on in recent years.  

(01-22-2020, 10:30 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: This..and even if everyone loves to take shots at Ross, his presence does open the middle of the field and pulls a safety out of the box. 

Having Ross, Boyd, AJ, and Tate on the field at the same time would be difficult to defend.  I would rather have Tate out there than our TEs.  I don't see Eifert beating him in a footrace any more and Tate has some of the most amazing hands I have ever seen.  

Let Tate have a year of prep with Taylor as a potential starter and I think he will only continue to progress.  Better line play opens up MUCH more of the entire field than before, which benefits every offensive player.  

I keep dreaming of opening day where I have renewed my tickets (still waiting on the FA moves) and Whit is announced at LG, Thuney at RG, Williams at LT, and Burrow at QB.  That happens, this offense will be very respectable overnight.  

(01-22-2020, 03:41 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Imagine how much better the Bengals could have been if they had taken Michael Thomas and Marshon Lattimore in back-to-back years in the 1st round rather than WJ3 and John Ross.
And imagine how much more of a draw that would have made for Ohio St fans.

(01-22-2020, 09:05 AM)Au165 Wrote: I went into a bunch of advanced stats on this topic last time so I'll avoid doing that again for the most part. The summation of my stance based on those stats was Tate suffered from a lot of uncatchable balls and poor ball placement. He was top 20 in the league in contested catch percentage so he makes the most out of it, but no one of the team was thrown more uncatchable balls. For some reason even when he'd run a slant and he has the CB shielded off Dalton either thew it way behind him (Bills) or way in front where he has to dive (Baltimore), he very rarely got a chance at a ball in stride.

People came back and countered with separation, blah blah. He got more separation than Mike Williams in LA and was better at catching contested balls. The big difference was Williams got thrown FAR more catchable passes. Overall I think Mike Williams is a really fair comparison on what Tate probably can be with improved QB play and more opportunity. 

(01-22-2020, 03:46 PM)Au165 Wrote: I mean we can do that every year. Thomas went 21 picks after WJ3 so it's not like he was widely expected to go in the same area. In reality every team missed bad on that one haha. Lattimore on the other hand you can kind of make the case, but on the flip side we just spent a 1st on a CB the year before.

(01-22-2020, 03:49 PM)Synric Wrote: Here is Auden Tate's highlights: http://www.nfl.com/videos/cincinnati-bengals/0ap3000001095352/Auden-Tate-highlights-2019-season

What is missing? Not one play did the ball go over his shoulder and not one play did get make a guy miss in the open field.

Auden Tate is limited. He is an ok receiver but is forced to make circus catches because of his limitations. He is not a guy that is going to catch a quick hitch and take it 10 or 12 yards.  He is not a guy that is gonna get a step on a corner 1 on 1 running a seven eight or nine.

(01-21-2020, 09:11 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Tate missed the entirety of 4 games and significant parts of 3 others. If you project out these stats over a 16 game season (adding a conservative 5 games of missed production) they look like this... 54 catches, 815 yards.

(01-22-2020, 03:49 PM)Synric Wrote: Here is Auden Tate's highlights: http://www.nfl.com/videos/cincinnati-bengals/0ap3000001095352/Auden-Tate-highlights-2019-season

What is missing? Not one play did the ball go over his shoulder and not one play did get make a guy miss in the open field.

Auden Tate is limited. He is an ok receiver but is forced to make circus catches because of his limitations. He is not a guy that is going to conaistently catch a quick hitch and take it 10 or 12 yards.  He is not a guy that is gonna get a step on a corner 1 on 1 running a seven eight or nine.

(01-22-2020, 03:55 PM)Au165 Wrote: He is a possession guy who is going to catch the ball and move the chains based on where the ball is caught.

(01-22-2020, 03:20 PM)Au165 Wrote: What does the team record have to do with anything? We are talking about the importance, or in reality lack of importance, of separation. Nothing you said in regards to trying to explain away guys stats has any relation to how effective a guy can be with little separation. You want to act as though there is some tie in with records so let's compare Hill (Best receiver in Super Bowl) versus Golladay (Least separation of anyone in the league).

Tyreek Hill on a Super Bowl playing team, In 12 games 89 Targets 58 receptions 860 yards 7 TD's
Kenny Golladay on a bad team, In 16 games 119 Targets 65 receptions 1190 yards 11 TD's

By your logic the Chiefs shouldn't be good because they force the ball too much to Hill, or the Lions should be better because 7.4 targets a game isn't forcing it. The reality is there is no causation in terms of #1 WR targets and winning. Julio Jones is on this list, Julio Freaking Jones. Julio Jones is considered a great WR and a 4.39 40 guys and he get's less separation than Tate yet we are somehow going to pretend like separation is a big deal?

Just stop with the nonsense. That list is littered with really good WR's that had I not shown you the list and asked if the WR's were good, or if they could get separation, everyone here would say "heck yea, we'd love to have those guys!". Tate may not be a superstar but we don't have to make up reasons to hate on the guy. He performed well when give a chance and I'd expect he will have more opputunity next season.

(01-22-2020, 09:05 AM)Au165 Wrote: I went into a bunch of advanced stats on this topic last time so I'll avoid doing that again for the most part. The summation of my stance based on those stats was Tate suffered from a lot of uncatchable balls and poor ball placement. He was top 20 in the league in contested catch percentage so he makes the most out of it, but no one of the team was thrown more uncatchable balls. For some reason even when he'd run a slant and he has the CB shielded off Dalton either thew it way behind him (Bills) or way in front where he has to dive (Baltimore), he very rarely got a chance at a ball in stride.

People came back and countered with separation, blah blah. He got more separation than Mike Williams in LA and was better at catching contested balls. The big difference was Williams got thrown FAR more catchable passes. Overall I think Mike Williams is a really fair comparison on what Tate probably can be with improved QB play and more opportunity.