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+--- Thread: Nick Vigil great pass defense in 2019 (/thread-23166.html)
RE: Nick Vigil great pass defense in 2019 - Bengalitis - 02-29-2020
With the coaches we have, we are going to have to rely A LOT on player talent to overcome coaching deficiencies.
RE: Nick Vigil great pass defense in 2019 - SadFaceBengal15 - 02-29-2020
(02-29-2020, 05:55 PM)Tony Wrote: I've been lurking on the boards since Jungle Noise was on the main site sand they didn't even have sub forums, you just left quotes. I always wanted to ask Fred if he is really a Bengals fan...
For real tho
RE: Nick Vigil great pass defense in 2019 - SunsetBengal - 02-29-2020
Vigil also set or tied career bests in tackles, Ints, fumble recoveries, tackles for loss, sacks and QB hits. All of that, in addition to ranking in the top 10 in QB efficiency versus him in coverage. In other words, on the strength of a strong second half of a season, he put together is best season as a pro.
Like it or not, I would be expecting the Bengals to sign him to a modest 3 year deal.
RE: Nick Vigil great pass defense in 2019 - Wes Mantooth - 02-29-2020
(02-29-2020, 09:18 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Like it or not, I would be expecting the Bengals to sign him to a modest 3 year deal.
RE: Nick Vigil great pass defense in 2019 - bengalfan74 - 02-29-2020
(02-29-2020, 09:18 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Vigil also set or tied career bests in tackles, Ints, fumble recoveries, tackles for loss, sacks and QB hits. All of that, in addition to ranking in the top 10 in QB efficiency versus him in coverage. In other words, on the strength of a strong second half of a season, he put together is best season as a pro.
Like it or not, I would be expecting the Bengals to sign him to a modest 3 year deal.
Vigil isn't as bad as some make him out to be, famous Bengal board line. But really it's true
Can his position be upgraded ? sure But he's not a bad guy to have around to rotate in, 3rd LBer when they use one, whatever. I hope they do keep him as backup up if nothing else.
RE: Nick Vigil great pass defense in 2019 - SunsetBengal - 02-29-2020
(02-29-2020, 09:25 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Vigil isn't as bad as some make him out to be, famous Bengal board line. But really it's true
Can his position be upgraded ? sure But he's not a bad guy to have around to rotate in, 3rd LBer when they use one, whatever. I hope they do keep him as backup up if nothing else.
That's right. When you only judge a player by his worst looks or performances, every player in the NFL sucks..
After Preston Brown was released, both Vigil and Pratt seemed to notably improve their play on the field. They seemed to pair fairly well together.
RE: Nick Vigil great pass defense in 2019 - Catmandude123 - 02-29-2020
Can't get rid of everyone. The nuclear option won't work if we have any hope to be competitive in the near future While it is hard to think the play we have seen from both players is any type of above average the whole team doesn't need to be.
RE: Nick Vigil great pass defense in 2019 - fredtoast - 02-29-2020
(02-28-2020, 07:41 PM)George Cantstandya Wrote: He wasn't horrible overall but I think he could improve in the missed tackle category. I think that has been a significant criticism of him. From Pro Football Reference 2019 stats on missed tackles compared to those listed above.
Leonard (IND)….. 5 (4.0%)*
Gerry (PHI)………. 14 (15.2%)
Vigil (CIN)………... 21 (15.9%)
David (TAM)……... 10 (7.5%)
Schobert (CLE)…. 16 (10.7%)
Kuechly (CAR)... 10 (6.5%)
Davis (NO)……….. 5 (4.3%)
Smith (CHI)……... 4 (3.8%)*
*played less than 16 games in 2019: Leonard played 13 games, Smith played 12.
Vigil lead the league in missed tackles according to Pro Football Reference and for a LB I think that is a fairly important stat. He was also followed by the Bengal's Shawn Williams with 20 (14.9%), and Jesse Bates also made the top 10 with 17 (14.5%). It seems some of the Bengals defense has a bit of a tackling problem.
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2019/defense_advanced.htm
George nailed it.
Going back to 2018 when our defense really fell off the edge it seems like they all forgot how to tackle. I don't have the numbers here in front of me but I would bet we have been at or near the bottom of the league in broken tackles over the last 2 years.
It is extremely frustrating to watch and it is not really mentioned a lot as a very basic problem that could improve our defense significantly if corrected. Tackling is about desire and fundamentals. There is no excuse for our ndefense being as bad as they have these last two seasons.
RE: Nick Vigil great pass defense in 2019 - Nate (formerly eliminate08) - 03-02-2020
(02-28-2020, 07:41 PM)George Cantstandya Wrote: He wasn't horrible overall but I think he could improve in the missed tackle category. I think that has been a significant criticism of him. From Pro Football Reference 2019 stats on missed tackles compared to those listed above.
Leonard (IND)….. 5 (4.0%)*
Gerry (PHI)………. 14 (15.2%)
Vigil (CIN)………... 21 (15.9%)
David (TAM)……... 10 (7.5%)
Schobert (CLE)…. 16 (10.7%)
Kuechly (CAR)... 10 (6.5%)
Davis (NO)……….. 5 (4.3%)
Smith (CHI)……... 4 (3.8%)*
*played less than 16 games in 2019: Leonard played 13 games, Smith played 12.
Vigil lead the league in missed tackles according to Pro Football Reference and for a LB I think that is a fairly important stat. He was also followed by the Bengal's Shawn Williams with 20 (14.9%), and Jesse Bates also made the top 10 with 17 (14.5%). It seems some of the Bengals defense has a bit of a tackling problem.
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2019/defense_advanced.htm
Yeah, the entire Defense needs to get better at tackling. That was sad last year.
BTW, bring in Schobert. Mixon has been pushing for him.
RE: Nick Vigil great pass defense in 2019 - Housh - 03-05-2020
(02-29-2020, 11:44 AM)Luvnit2 Wrote: It appears Vigil is better than a lot of people' expert eye test.
More important, if I am reading correctly the best LB gave up a 62.8% completion rate. If so, I think a lot our eye tests need to factor this in as we evaluate LB's in coverage.
Here’s a bit of needed context
I didn’t know this when I made my first post.
I still need more tho. Is Vigil normally asked to pass cover spots or people? How many times does Luke cover the middle vs the flats, how often was Vigil covering a top TE? So much more that this post needed to satisfactorily make the point it’s trying to make
RE: Nick Vigil great pass defense in 2019 - jason - 03-05-2020
(02-29-2020, 11:18 PM)fredtoast Wrote: George nailed it.
Going back to 2018 when our defense really fell off the edge it seems like they all forgot how to tackle. I don't have the numbers here in front of me but I would bet we have been at or near the bottom of the league in broken tackles over the last 2 years.
It is extremely frustrating to watch and it is not really mentioned a lot as a very basic problem that could improve our defense significantly if corrected. Tackling is about desire and fundamentals. There is no excuse for our ndefense being as bad as they have these last two seasons.
This... Go back and watch games from a few years back. The tackling and sheer aggression on the defensive side of the ball was night and day different. That's coaching. When Marvin took over at DC late in 2018, what did they work on in practice right away?
RE: Nick Vigil great pass defense in 2019 - ochocincos - 03-05-2020
(02-28-2020, 06:52 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Here is a list of league leaders in passer rating allowed among LBs with at least 40 targets.
Leonard (IND)…..62.8
Gerry (PHI)……….70.2
Vigil (CIN)………...72.9
David (TAM)……...73.0
Schobert (CLE)….74.6
Keuchley (CAR)...75.3
Davis (NO)………..75.8
Smith (CHI)……...75.9
Vigil's turnovers and PDs don't reflect the same, so it's hard to determine simply from stats whether he's that good in coverage or whether the QBs throwing to targets near him just weren't as accurate.
Regardless, he's not as bad as some are making him out to be.
RE: Nick Vigil great pass defense in 2019 - bengaloo - 03-05-2020
(03-05-2020, 11:46 AM)jason Wrote: This... Go back and watch games from a few years back. The tackling and sheer aggression on the defensive side of the ball was night and day different. That's coaching. When Marvin took over at DC late in 2018, what did they work on in practice right away?
Yeah it it did help when he took over, just not enough or it was too little too late. We were awful tacklers under Austin, and bad under Lou last year as well. Having 3 starters in the top 10 in missed tackles last year definitely screams coaching, but its also on the players some as well. They are pro's they should be able to tackle better.
We need to work on the basic fundamentals and also find better players who tackle better. Hopefully Al Golden can work with our LBs and improve the unit. Definitely need upgrades at both LB and S though in a big way. I'm not sold on Bates or Williams at S. They couldnt tackle or cover last year it seemed. We were gouged in the middle of the field all year.
RE: Nick Vigil great pass defense in 2019 - BengalChris - 03-07-2020
(02-28-2020, 06:52 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Here is a list of league leaders in passer rating allowed among LBs with at least 40 targets.
Leonard (IND)…..62.8
Gerry (PHI)……….70.2
Vigil (CIN)………...72.9
David (TAM)……...73.0
Schobert (CLE)….74.6
Keuchley (CAR)...75.3
Davis (NO)………..75.8
Smith (CHI)……...75.9
I guess tackling the runner just wasn't part of his game though. We can do better and should.
RE: Nick Vigil great pass defense in 2019 - SunsetBengal - 03-08-2020
(02-29-2020, 11:44 AM)Luvnit2 Wrote: It appears Vigil is better than a lot of people' expert eye test.
More important, if I am reading correctly the best LB gave up a 62.8% completion rate. If so, I think a lot our eye tests need to factor this in as we evaluate LB's in coverage.
I don't think that is completion percentage, but Quarterback rating.
RE: Nick Vigil great pass defense in 2019 - BonnieBengal - 03-08-2020
(02-29-2020, 05:55 PM)Tony Wrote: I've been lurking on the boards since Jungle Noise was on the main site sand they didn't even have sub forums, you just left quotes. I always wanted to ask Fred if he is really a Bengals fan...
Really I think he just enjoys a good argument.
RE: Nick Vigil great pass defense in 2019 - impactplaya - 03-08-2020
Vigil would be better suited coming off the bench or strictly a special teamer. He has had 4 years to develop into a game changer
A difference maker.
His problem is when the defense needs a big stop on 3rd down
He never steps up and makes a play
RE: Nick Vigil great pass defense in 2019 - Nate (formerly eliminate08) - 03-08-2020
(02-28-2020, 10:48 PM)Tony Wrote: Are you really a Bengal fan? Or do you just like to argue for the sake of arguing? Or do you want the team to just remain bad? The Bengals defense has been historically bad and the worse part of it?? Yup LineBackers... These numbers are skewed from how long the defense was on the field... Vigil is the best out of a horrible group. Congratulations on figuring that out... I see your game. You take a crap player and find the one part of his game that is average and try to tell everyone they are wrong about said player... Everyone can see what this guy is doing here.. Right?
Fred is a Bengal fan, just an odd one that DOES love to argue for the sake of arguing.
He is right sometimes, actually a lot of the time. He just likes to leave out the parts when he is wrong.
Bottom line is we should not be striving for mediocrity, we need to be the best at every position.
Always seek excellence, never mediocrity.
Vigil is mediocre, decent in coverage, terrible at taking angles and tackling which is our biggest problem at Linebacker.
We have Pratt to build off of, lets go get Schobert or one of the other LB's in FA and we will be much better off.
I think we should re-sign Vigil though as we are so starved at the position.
RE: Nick Vigil great pass defense in 2019 - BengalsRocker - 03-08-2020
(02-29-2020, 09:25 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Vigil isn't as bad as some make him out to be, famous Bengal board line. But really it's true
Can his position be upgraded ? sure But he's not a bad guy to have around to rotate in, 3rd LBer when they use one, whatever. I hope they do keep him as backup up if nothing else.
If I had a nickel for every time I've read, heard, and even thought that myself.
The problem is, that it happens quite too often when discussing starting players.
Backup/rotational/depth/whatever but no so much guys we want to start !
RE: Nick Vigil great pass defense in 2019 - TheUberHuber - 03-08-2020
(02-29-2020, 11:44 AM)Luvnit2 Wrote: It appears Vigil is better than a lot of people' expert eye test.
More important, if I am reading correctly the best LB gave up a 62.8% completion rate. If so, I think a lot our eye tests need to factor this in as we evaluate LB's in coverage.
The eye test had way more to do with him not tackling.