(07-13-2020, 02:23 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: I know there is a (big) place for metrics in sports today.  They can definitely be useful In discussion and debate.  But more often than not I judge players the way I always have, with my eyeballs and a little common sense.

Do these numbers take into account any of the following:  Pressure, Time to throw, WR seperation, Where target ranks in progression, Base Defense, etc?

These numbers can't exist in a vacuum. There's a lot that goes into them when valuing a QB's actual accuray beyond whether a ball is catchable (subjective).  I can almost guarantee that QB's with below average lines throw more "uncatchable" balls than they would if they had better protection.

I'd like to see these numbers for all of Andy's previous seasons.  Has he always struggled with this? I doubt it.  Did his skills magically fall of the map at age age 31? Again, I doubt it.

So while these numbers help to paint a picture they tell me something I already knew: Andy's play dropped big time due to a lack of talent around him. He had an awful line, below average weapons in the pass game, and he was paired with a run game that was among the league's worst through his first 8 starts.

I know he stunk. The question is why he stunk. These numbers don't help in trying to figure that out.

(07-13-2020, 11:02 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: This year will really be a nice test.. if we don;t improve in accuracy this year.. i think it will be very telling that it was a bit more than the QB or sadly Burrow College performance did not transfer over to NFL in his first year...

(07-14-2020, 02:49 PM)impactplaya Wrote: Andy always needed a perfect storm of talent and game planning Round him to succeed. Good OCs here got the most
Out of him. When he got garbage OCs like Lazor and Zampese Andy didn't have enough to improvise when their
Predictable schemes got exposed

(07-16-2020, 11:49 PM)PAjwPhilly Wrote: None of these players are Bengals, so they don't belong in JN.

You moved a post about Gruden, because he wasn't a Bengal what is different here?

(07-17-2020, 02:21 AM)Forever Spinning Vinyl Wrote: We’re also discussing the weaknesses of the coaching staff and the poor separation that the wrs here are known for.

(07-14-2020, 02:49 PM)impactplaya Wrote: Andy always needed a perfect storm of talent and game planning Round him to succeed. 

(07-17-2020, 09:13 AM)fredtoast Wrote: You can't really make this argument in a thread where you are citing PFF numbers.

According to PFF Dalton's best season ws 2018.  Are you really going to argue that in 2018 Dalton was surrounded by elite players and coaches?

(07-17-2020, 09:13 AM)fredtoast Wrote: You can't really make this argument in a thread where you are citing PFF numbers.

According to PFF Dalton's best season ws 2018.  Are you really going to argue that in 2018 Dalton was surrounded by elite players and coaches?

(07-17-2020, 11:34 AM)impactplaya Wrote: In 2018 in the 1st 5 games the offense averaged 31 points a game. But Andy had a healthy set of skill position 
players at his disposal. The oline was average but good enough to let Andy set his feet read coverage and find 
The open guy. 
Then In the Falcons game AD lost 2 pivotal pieces of that 4 1 start. Ross and Eifert. 2 guys that could 
Really exploit the middle of the field and seams. Uzomah didn't bring what Eifert could and nobody at WR 
had the speed dimension Ross brought 
Andy in those 1st 5 games played aa well as he ever did. Then after Losing AJ game 9 he had 
Very little  talent around him to compensate for his shortcomings. 
AJ's Injury you can connect to ADs regression as a QB.

(07-17-2020, 11:31 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: I could have sworn you’ve claimed they had 2016 as his best season...

(07-17-2020, 12:49 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Not sure what all this jumble means, but just to be clear, for future reference you believe that Dalton was surrounded by the "perfect storm" of elite talent and coaching in 2018.  

Can I quote you on that?

(07-17-2020, 01:16 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Well, the Cowboys didn't reach a deal with Prescott, so he'll be playing under the tag @ 31 mil this year.

Honestly, if I'm the Cowboys I'd be looking real hard at trying to find a trade partner right now.  I don't if that's feasible with everything that surrounds the league and with cap space this late in the offseason.  But IMHO, if it could be done, it would be the smart move.

Take those cap savings and roll them over to next year (Rollover was reinstated with the new CBA). I honestly think they'd minimal drop-off with Dalton this season.  Let someone else overpay this guy, cuz there is absolutely no way in hell he's worth near 40 mil a season on a long-term deal loaded with guarantees.

Look at what this guy has had to work with compared to Andy.  Probably the best OL in all of football over his 4 year career, an elite running back, and well above average receivers.  Then you couple his weapons with the fact he plays for a 1st class organization that spares no expense at any level.  Then throw in the fact that both the Giants and Redskins have been abysmal during his career.

If I were giving out Madden grades I'd give Andy like a 78 and Dak like an 83.  As much as some on here love to rip on Andy I'm telling you that the guy he's backing up aint that much better.

(07-17-2020, 01:16 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Well, the Cowboys didn't reach a deal with Prescott, so he'll be playing under the tag @ 31 mil this year.

Honestly, if I'm the Cowboys I'd be looking real hard at trying to find a trade partner right now.  I don't if that's feasible with everything that surrounds the league and with cap space this late in the offseason.  But IMHO, if it could be done, it would be the smart move.

Take those cap savings and roll them over to next year (Rollover was reinstated with the new CBA). I honestly think they'd minimal drop-off with Dalton this season.  Let someone else overpay this guy, cuz there is absolutely no way in hell he's worth near 40 mil a season on a long-term deal loaded with guarantees.

Look at what this guy has had to work with compared to Andy.  Probably the best OL in all of football over his 4 year career, an elite running back, and well above average receivers.  Then you couple his weapons with the fact he plays for a 1st class organization that spares no expense at any level.  Then throw in the fact that both the Giants and Redskins have been abysmal during his career.

If I were giving out Madden grades I'd give Andy like a 78 and Dak like an 83.  As much as some on here love to rip on Andy I'm telling you that the guy he's backing up aint that much better.

(07-13-2020, 02:13 PM)impactplaya Wrote: That sounds like to me it comes back to the OC and WR position coach in regards to getting seperation.
If WRs/TEs run the same predcatble routes out of the same formation  and down and distance then DBS
Have a 50/50 % or better reading the route staying on the hip or possibly jumping the route in anticipation 

I noticed last year the targets would run the same 3,4 routes over and over. DBs are smart in this league.
They look at game film and look at tendacies. 
How,many times did Andy get bailed out on the throw with no zip to the outside hash and the DB read the rout
Or Andys eyes and get his hands on it and drop it. ?

BC. BICKNELL AND ZT BETTER DO A BETTER JOB OF SCHEMING UP THE PASSING GAME ON SUNDAY 

They also better work on those jailbreak plays where Burrow will have move out of pocket and
Look for WRs breaking off their route and creating seperation downfield that Big Ben does so well.