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+--- Thread: End of the "Dalton Scale"? (/thread-266.html)
RE: End of the "Dalton Scale"? - Johnny Cupcakes - 05-20-2015
Not surprising that people are even more down on Dalton this year. He's an average QB coming off of a horrible season. I agree that from 2011-2013, he was the measuring stick for QBs....if your QB is worse, start a new search, but you couldn't just let someone with his production go. In 2014 he was far less than acceptable though.
RE: End of the "Dalton Scale"? - Shake n Blake - 05-20-2015
(05-20-2015, 07:56 PM)bfine32 Wrote: IMO Tannehill is more talented and nothing he did caused Andy to have an absolutely terrible year. I assumed you were a huge fan of a young Mark Sanchez.
I'd probably take Tannehill over Dalton. Dalton is better than Sanchez though.
(05-20-2015, 09:33 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote:
Dude, i am the first to say AD had a terrible season but i bet he surprises these guys
big time this year. With Green, Eifert, MLJ all healthy and a badazz running game and
a solid O-line these guys will probably eat major crow.
This is what i am hoping anyways...
I have little doubt that Dalton will rebound from last year. The receiving core is healthy and Denarius Moore provides depth. I also think Eifert will prove to be a better receiver than Gresham. I honestly think last year will prove to be fluky. That said, the issue I have with him is consistency. His bad games are TERRIBLE.
If he can raise his passer rating in bad games from 50 and below to say...somewhere in the 70's, I'd feel a lot better about him and his end of season stats would look much better. As for the playoffs, that's an entirely different discussion for me because I'm not sold that the QB is the main problem there.
RE: End of the "Dalton Scale"? - BonnieBengal - 05-20-2015
(05-20-2015, 04:43 PM)GreenCornBengal Wrote: Here is a link to the "Around the NFL" podcast, which a good majority talks about the "Dalton Scale". Quick Disclaimer, I hate these dudes, especially Gregg Rosenthal. :vomit:
Anywho, here is the link.
http://www.nfl.com/podcasts?id=26d688927df08855d267faf0bc1c3593
If you skip to 27mins they start to talk about Dalton
A quick summary is that Dalton has become so horrible lately that they are ditching the "Dalton Line" all together. As I'm sure you know, these guys decided that a team with a QB worse than Dalton needs a new QB, and a team with a better QB than Dalton is ok at QB (and thus the term Dalton Line was created).
Dalton was so bad last year, that they now see him as the 25th or even 27th QB in the league
Thus, he cannot be the QB or "scale" to judge other QBs off of.
The segment reminded me of jungle noise and gave me a few laughs, although if you dislike Dalton hate, this probably isn't for you.
Rosenthal from PFT? Huge Steeler fan. This kind of thing makes me really want Andy to show them all up. How does a QB who is so bad average 10 wins a season in the regular season? He has problem in the playoffs. I really hope he can get beyond that.
RE: End of the "Dalton Scale"? - GreenCornBengal - 05-21-2015
(05-20-2015, 11:44 PM)BonnieBengal Wrote: Rosenthal from PFT? Huge Steeler fan. This kind of thing makes me really want Andy to show them all up. How does a QB who is so bad average 10 wins a season in the regular season? He has problem in the playoffs. I really hope he can get beyond that.
Sad thing is, Rosenthal was the one defending Dalton the most. Many of them said they would take Bridgewater over Dalton. Would you? I think they give young guys credit too early and Andy not enough credit. He is just average, but certainly not in the 25-worse range... I just can't see that.
RE: End of the "Dalton Scale"? - Bryan - 05-21-2015
(05-20-2015, 06:13 PM)Bengalstripes18 Wrote: I'm still on the fence about Dalton, but he's definitely better than Tannenhill..
No he isn't. He's had more success on a more talented team.
RE: End of the "Dalton Scale"? - CornerBlitz - 05-21-2015
(05-21-2015, 12:52 AM)Bryan Wrote: No he isn't. He's had more success on a more talented team.
Uhm, what he said.
RE: End of the "Dalton Scale"? - Bengalstripes9 - 05-21-2015
(05-20-2015, 07:09 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Tannehill achieved a passer rating of over 92 last year with no receivers and a terrible oline. Why do folks always find it necessary to try to make other QBs look bad.
As for blowing games at the end. In the 4th Quarter in games within 7 points Tannehill completed over 64% of his passes with 4 TDs and 1 INT. He had a QBR of 99.3 in that situation.
Tannehill is a talented young QB.
I posted right before work. Just got off. Anyway.. I knew someone would bring up Tannenhill's stats--which are good--and make me look like an idiot. That being said, I'm still not all that impressed, yet.
Maybe I'm bitter because he lost me the pool too many times last year, but he didn't look good in close games to me. He didn't throw a lot of picks, but he didn't throw a lot of completions when the game was on the line either. The Packers game is the one that sticks out the most, I would have definitely won the pool that week, but he couldn't move the ball against a terrible defense when it counted. Also, losing to the Jets in the last week of the season ruined the pool for me too, that and TB deciding to pull their starters against the Saints in my upset pick..
RE: End of the "Dalton Scale"? - Murdock2420 - 05-21-2015
It may not be a "telling" stat, but it is something I've taken notice of over the past months. I listen to ESPN radio a great deal, enjoy SVP, and Sedano's show as well. Both of these guys really bang on Dalton as much as anyone on this board. He is becoming the new face of mediocre QB play in the NFL. I know people will toss out stats and he's been to the playoffs and all that. Great. When the lights get the brightest, Andy shrinks. I don't think it's mechanics or lack of ability, I honestly think it's mental. The guy has the tools, he's shown it, but that's only half the game. The mental side is where I think he is missing.
RE: End of the "Dalton Scale"? - Shake n Blake - 05-21-2015
(05-21-2015, 02:17 AM)Murdock2420 Wrote: It may not be a "telling" stat, but it is something I've taken notice of over the past months. I listen to ESPN radio a great deal, enjoy SVP, and Sedano's show as well. Both of these guys really bang on Dalton as much as anyone on this board. He is becoming the new face of mediocre QB play in the NFL. I know people will toss out stats and he's been to the playoffs and all that. Great. When the lights get the brightest, Andy shrinks. I don't think it's mechanics or lack of ability, I honestly think it's mental. The guy has the tools, he's shown it, but that's only half the game. The mental side is where I think he is missing.
Fair enough, but who hasn't shrunk in the bright lights under Marvin Lewis?
Carson shrunk. Our defense almost always shrinks too.
RE: End of the "Dalton Scale"? - RICHMONDBENGAL_07 - 05-21-2015
(05-20-2015, 06:13 PM)Bengalstripes18 Wrote: I'm still on the fence about Dalton, but he's definitely better than Tannenhill..
I don't understand why so many people are high on Tannenhill, and was shocked he got as much money as he did.
Last year he choked at the end of every close game. It pissed me off because I'd pick the Dolphins in my football pool, they'd be up the whole game, or at least be in the game at the end--then Tannenhill loses the game at the end by either not moving the ball or turning it over. Dalton at least has won us some games at the end (the drive against Pitt last year comes to mind that clinched a playoff birth).
I'm not a stat guy like a lot of you guys, and don't know much about Tannenhill other than I've heard he's a decent young quarterback. But it's hard for me to hate on Dalton after going to the playoffs his first four seasons. However, I do see others points about needing to get that playoff win. I'm of the opinion that if doesn't get that win this season we may be needing to bring someone else if their something available in the draft.
RE: End of the "Dalton Scale"? - Thundercloud - 05-21-2015
When the big game heat is really on, some guys step up and compete, and some guys just roll up into a great big ball and die. In a lot of our big games, it has seemed we've got too many of the later. And I don't mean just Andy Dalton.
But he is one of the usual suspects, and even though many will hate to say it, he will have to be the one to lead us out of playoff hell, at least for this season. Whether he, and other key players can grow out of their post season stupor, will play itself out this year. If they don't make it happen, I see major changes coming.
RE: End of the "Dalton Scale"? - BonnieBengal - 05-21-2015
(05-21-2015, 12:35 AM)GreenCornBengal Wrote: Sad thing is, Rosenthal was the one defending Dalton the most. Many of them said they would take Bridgewater over Dalton. Would you? I think they give young guys credit too early and Andy not enough credit. He is just average, but certainly not in the 25-worse range... I just can't see that.
I agree he doesn't get enough credit. Average or not? He has "averaged" 10 wins a season, which is above average. Of course the critics want to give him no credit for the wins and all the credit for the losses.
RE: End of the "Dalton Scale"? - DippieDo84@gmail.com - 05-21-2015
(05-20-2015, 07:50 PM)leonardfan40 Wrote: This^
Tannehill is a very good QB. He has not had the success making the playoffs that Dalton has had, but he also hasn't had the supporting cast that Dalton has had. This year should be very telling for Tannehill. If I were the Dolphins I would have waited another year before giving him that deal. I said the same thing with Dalton though and certainly understand the choice to pay both QB's now. They are actually in a very similar situation with him as we were with Dalton and they made the same choice. Pay him decent money know and try to build a great team around him to win it all, banking on him being able to take them to the next level. If you wait until he wins you several playoff games or even a SB then try to pay him you are going to either have to let him walk or cut players left and right to make the salary cap. Plus with guys like Luck and Wilson closing in on new mega deals getting him done now makes even more sense than waiting for those two to cash in and having Tannehill cost even more. Both the Dolphins and Bengals made the choice to pay these mid level QB's now so they can build a long term contender. I don't see how anyone can hate the move, may not be what you would have done, but they have faith in their guys and made the move. We won't know how good/bad these deals are for a few more seasons.
I totally agree with this. Tannehill ALSO hasnt been the playoffs 4 straight years, and played terrible in them to disappoint everyone. Sadly not making the playoffs and being 1 and done only twice would mean less blame on dalton, but everyone seems to forget that everything does not fall on the QB. Not having AJ Green really ruined us this year against INDY, we stood little chance with the receivers we had, after all not having your top 2 WR's usually screws a team up pretty bad offensively, and the fact Dalton did as good as he did proves that he is becoming a good QB.
<<<<<*****>>>>>
I can't quite agree with the Dalton scale, because I do in fact think Dalton is a franchise QB. Is he ELITE? Far from it, but he is a good game manager, he will occasionally win a game for ya, lose a few here too, but will likely be a middle of the Road Average to slightly Above Average QB. Good news is, superbowls have been won with Trent Dilfer and even been played in by guys like Rex Grossman
RE: End of the "Dalton Scale"? - SHRacerX - 05-21-2015
(05-20-2015, 10:01 PM)Stormborn Wrote: From a pure talent perspective, Tannehill >> Dalton. It's not too hard to understand when one was drafted 28 spots ahead of the other.
You put Tannehill on this team, no chemistry issues, why would it be shocking that he maybe would do better than what Andy's done?
My simple answer is because he hasn't done as well playing in a less talented conference and usually with a third place schedule. How has Tannehill fared against teams like putzburg and baltiwhore? I don't care to look it up, but the level of competition you play does matter.
The one thing Dalton has working against him in the eyes of many of the talking heads, and posters here, is that the most recent memory isn't a very good one. They forget breaking Palmer's franchise records in his third season for yards and TDs.
He had to learn a new offense, and he was significantly limited in his help on offense due to injury. Even Sir Tom Brady looked very pedestrian playing with a young receiver corps and without Gronk just a couple years ago.
I believe he will have a very good year and if the team stays healthy, they can make a run in the playoffs....potentially all the way.
RE: End of the "Dalton Scale"? - SHRacerX - 05-21-2015
(05-21-2015, 12:52 AM)Bryan Wrote: No he isn't. He's had more success on a more talented team.
Let's not forget that this "more talented team" was projected by many to have ZERO wins the year the quitter left. Coming off a 4-12 season and in the best division in football, the Bengals were 9-7 in his rookie season.
RE: End of the "Dalton Scale"? - Johnny Cupcakes - 05-21-2015
(05-21-2015, 07:49 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: Let's not forget that this "more talented team" was projected by many to have ZERO wins the year the quitter left. Coming off a 4-12 season and in the best division in football, the Bengals were 9-7 in his rookie season.
Cool. This was four years ago though, and he's not really progressed much from that point. If 2014 wasn't an aberration, then he's actually regressed quite a bit from 2011.
The Bengals have a better team than the Dolphins, but the Dolphins have the better QB.
RE: End of the "Dalton Scale"? - CKwi88 - 05-21-2015
(05-21-2015, 09:55 AM)Johnny Cupcakes Wrote: Cool. This was four years ago though, and he's not really progressed much from that point. If 2014 wasn't an aberration, then he's actually regressed quite a bit from 2011.
The Bengals have a better team than the Dolphins, but the Dolphins have the better QB.
Exactly. The Bengals actually boast one of the best all around rosters in the entire NFL. But the importance of the quarterback is so disproportionate to the rest of the roster that anyone in their right mind would trade a few of those extra pieces for quality quarterback play.
I like Dalton, but it is hard to argue that he is Not the player that is holding this team back. And all we can do is hope he gets it together like he has shown he can before.
RE: End of the "Dalton Scale"? - Brownshoe - 05-21-2015
(05-21-2015, 09:55 AM)Johnny Cupcakes Wrote: Cool. This was four years ago though, and he's not really progressed much from that point. If 2014 wasn't an aberration, then he's actually regressed quite a bit from 2011.
The Bengals have a better team than the Dolphins, but the Dolphins have the better QB.
Dalton only has had a good defense behind him pretty much his whole career. He only had one year that he had good weapons, and that year he put up big numbers (even without a good run game). '11 and '12 he had no one on offense other than Green. Then last year all of the offensive weapons were hurt. If everyone is healthy this year he will have a great group around him, but that's if they stay healthy. It's not like Tannelhill was playing with a bunch of bad players either. The Dolphins had a decent run game that had 4.1 YPA, and they had a couple of good receivers.
RE: End of the "Dalton Scale"? - Nately120 - 05-21-2015
(05-21-2015, 07:49 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: Let's not forget that this "more talented team" was projected by many to have ZERO wins the year the quitter left. Coming off a 4-12 season and in the best division in football, the Bengals were 9-7 in his rookie season.
I don't think there was a big a difference between the talent level of the 2010 and the 2011 teams as the 5-win differential would suggest. Both teams only managed to beat a single team with a winning record and I have my doubts the 2011 squad could have fared much better against a schedule featuring 11 games against winning teams, with 8 of those being against 11+ win teams.
14-2
12-4
10-6
13-3
12-4
10-6
11-5
11-5
12-4
9-7
12-4
I knew going into 2010 that the schedule was going to sink the team, but lordy loo what a slate that was. Don't get me wrong, they followed up on the 2011 season's relative success and built on it, but the 2011 team would have been lucky to go 4-12 against the 2010 schedule, too. Of course, that's just conjecture, but it's an educated guess based on some statistical this-n-thats.
RE: End of the "Dalton Scale"? - PhilHos - 05-21-2015
(05-20-2015, 10:01 PM)Stormborn Wrote: From a pure talent perspective, Tannehill >> Dalton. It's not too hard to understand when one was drafted 28 spots ahead of the other.
You put Tannehill on this team, no chemistry issues, why would it be shocking that he maybe would do better than what Andy's done?
From a pure talent perspective, Terrell Pryor >> Tannehill AND Dalton. Are you saying you want Pryor to start for the Bengals? Obviously, the higher talent = better production, right?
In terms of the Tannehill vs Dalton debate, in my mind, they are about equal.
One last thing about Dalton (for now), I find it very telling that the usual standards for judging a QB are thrown out the window when it comes to Dalton. Other QBs are judged on wins and stats, for the most part. But, because those would indicate Dalton is a good QB, people bring up other things. They may be valid criticisms (playoff and prime time performances, for example), but still are generally solely only used to knock Dalton down.
The fact of the matter is that Dalton is a decent-to-good QB that has shown flashes of being a very good, if not great, QB, whose problems stem from inconsistencies and poor playoff/prime time performances.
With that said, there is a small part of me that sometimes dreams that Pryor gets a chance to start and ends up being like a super mobile Brett Favre (I do like them strong arm QBs).