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RE: Rank our OTs - Nate (formerly eliminate08) - 07-06-2022
(07-05-2022, 08:50 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: I think that’s going to be Wirfs for quite a while, but Collins should be our best RT since Willie. Not just solid like Andre or Reiff, but actually elite.
Spot on. We haven't been this good at RT for a long time.
Depth is the only issue and Prince isn't terrible contrary to what some think. Adeniji is terrible though.
I think D'Ante Smith could be great depth at all the positions except Center, but he is more of an OT in my eyes.
Think we ought to bring in a vet at Guard, don't care who for depth.
RE: Rank our OTs - CJD - 07-06-2022
(07-05-2022, 10:14 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Good points. WTS, I usually don't vote in these polls, but as I was putting the list together and looked for Teams better than the Bengals; I came up with:
SFF is
TBB close
NYG can be
That's fair. I think I'm just a little more leery of Collins as an elite talent because I don't think a team ditches a player on a below market value deal if they believe the player is elite. The Cowboys were in a rough position in terms of cap, but if we (and the NFL in general) believe Collins is a top 5 RT, 10MM AAV is a great deal for him. The current top 5 RTs make anywhere from 14M to 19.2M AAV. Granted, it drops off a cliff after those 5, so maybe RT is just heavily undervalued in the NFL, but I also heard Cowboys fans say that their Oline worked better when Steele played than when Collins played.
So both the front office and the fans don't believe Collins is an elite RT and we were able to get him for an absurdly low price of 7M AAV, that makes me think the other teams competing for him agreed that he is not an elite RT.
Plus, while Williams is brimming with potential, he still hasn't shown truly elite play in the NFL yet. I don't think you could put him on an island against an elite pass rusher like Von Miller and he neutralizes him the way Whitworth neutralized Suggs, for example. He graded out well this year on PFF, at 77.1, but he also allowed 8 sacks. I am really hopeful that he takes that next step towards being elite this year (and I believe he will, which is why I hope we extend him this year before his value explodes), but until I see that I am going to hope for the best but not expect it.
With that said, if Williams and Collins both play up to their talent level, I agree that they can be a top 5 duo in the NFL.
RE: Rank our OTs - Go Cards - 07-06-2022
Taking it as a win that there have been no votes cast in the 19-24 or the 25-32 range.
Apparently even the haters and lurking steeler fans have quit slinging mud.
Life is Good !
RE: Rank our OTs - Nate (formerly eliminate08) - 07-06-2022
(07-06-2022, 07:55 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: That's fair. I think I'm just a little more leery of Collins as an elite talent because I don't think a team ditches a player on a below market value deal if they believe the player is elite. The Cowboys were in a rough position in terms of cap, but if we (and the NFL in general) believe Collins is a top 5 RT, 10MM AAV is a great deal for him. The current top 5 RTs make anywhere from 14M to 19.2M AAV. Granted, it drops off a cliff after those 5, so maybe RT is just heavily undervalued in the NFL, but I also heard Cowboys fans say that their Oline worked better when Steele played than when Collins played.
So both the front office and the fans don't believe Collins is an elite RT and we were able to get him for an absurdly low price of 7M AAV, that makes me think the other teams competing for him agreed that he is not an elite RT.
Plus, while Williams is brimming with potential, he still hasn't shown truly elite play in the NFL yet. I don't think you could put him on an island against an elite pass rusher like Von Miller and he neutralizes him the way Whitworth neutralized Suggs, for example. He graded out well this year on PFF, at 77.1, but he also allowed 8 sacks. I am really hopeful that he takes that next step towards being elite this year (and I believe he will, which is why I hope we extend him this year before his value explodes), but until I see that I am going to hope for the best but not expect it.
With that said, if Williams and Collins both play up to their talent level, I agree that they can be a top 5 duo in the NFL.
I think the only reason some were leery of La'el Collins was off the field issues. His talent is undeniable IMO.
Dude can run, you see him in that game highlight when he was pancaking Packers outrunning WR's deep to keep on obliterating
them? Probably the most insane video of an O-lineman I have ever seen showing elite talent and effort...
Agree on Jonah and the duo, both need to play up to their talent level and we could be top 5 for sure. Jonah has great technique
he is just a little undersized and can get taken advantage of with powerful Ends and Stunts.
RE: Rank our OTs - CJD - 07-09-2022
(07-06-2022, 09:30 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: I think the only reason some were leery of La'el Collins was off the field issues. His talent is undeniable IMO.
Dude can run, you see him in that game highlight when he was pancaking Packers outrunning WR's deep to keep on obliterating
them? Probably the most insane video of an O-lineman I have ever seen showing elite talent and effort...
Agree on Jonah and the duo, both need to play up to their talent level and we could be top 5 for sure. Jonah has great technique
he is just a little undersized and can get taken advantage of with powerful Ends and Stunts.
Jonah's size is his biggest weakness. I am not sure he'll ever reach Whitworth Island status, but if he can be an above average LT that can be relied on to protect Burrow's blindside (even if he occasionally needs a TE or RB bump or the LG's left hand), he and Collins together will rank among the elite pairs of tackles in the NFL :)
RE: Rank our OTs - Joelist - 07-09-2022
Also don't forget the sack number on Jonah is deceptive because in 2021 were had easily the worst pass blocking from TEs and backs in the NFL. We know the coaches think a good number of sacks PFF assigned to Jonah belong to Mixon, Perine or Uzo. This is one area we were unable to improve dramatically on and I am just hoping we can get the backfield coached up on correct technique in chipping and redirecting.
RE: Rank our OTs - CarolinaBengalFanGuy - 07-10-2022
Too many new faces on the line to make a legitimate argument. I’m expecting them to probably disappoint people early on in the season (like Kansas City did when they reworked a large part of their line last offseason), but to improve a lot as the season goes on.
That said I believe we have 7-12 potential they’re just going to need to gel together and stay healthy. Unfortunately Jonah is going to have the weak link next to him again.
RE: Rank our OTs - bengalfan74 - 07-10-2022
(07-10-2022, 07:28 AM)CarolinaBengalFanGuy Wrote: Too many new faces on the line to make a legitimate argument. I’m expecting them to probably disappoint people early on in the season (like Kansas City did when they reworked a large part of their line last offseason), but to improve a lot as the season goes on.
That said I believe we have 7-12 potential they’re just going to need to gel together and stay healthy. Unfortunately Jonah is going to have the weak link next to him again.
Yes I believe much depends on how well the LG starts out the season.
RE: Rank our OTs - fredtoast - 07-10-2022
With O-lines a rising tide lifts all ships. It is very difficult for even a great o-lineman to stand out on a poor o-line. Generally, the only time fans notice a great block is when it springs a long run or big play. And in order to break log runs and have big plays it takes more than one block. So two O-lineman can make the same number of big blocks, but if one is surrounded by better players he will look better and stand out more.
This is true to some extent for every position. But it is easier for defenders and skill players on offense to make a highlight type play based just on individual talent because we watch them more as individuals. We generally don't pay attention to the O-line at all unless there is a screw-up or a block breaks a long play.
RE: Rank our OTs - Nate (formerly eliminate08) - 07-12-2022
(07-09-2022, 09:17 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: Jonah's size is his biggest weakness. I am not sure he'll ever reach Whitworth Island status, but if he can be an above average LT that can be relied on to protect Burrow's blindside (even if he occasionally needs a TE or RB bump or the LG's left hand), he and Collins together will rank among the elite pairs of tackles in the NFL :)
Completely agree.
(07-09-2022, 09:42 PM)Joelist Wrote: Also don't forget the sack number on Jonah is deceptive because in 2021 were had easily the worst pass blocking from TEs and backs in the NFL. We know the coaches think a good number of sacks PFF assigned to Jonah belong to Mixon, Perine or Uzo. This is one area we were unable to improve dramatically on and I am just hoping we can get the backfield coached up on correct technique in chipping and redirecting.
Yes the RB and TE coaches need to coach up their players in blitz pickup clearly.
(07-10-2022, 07:28 AM)CarolinaBengalFanGuy Wrote: Too many new faces on the line to make a legitimate argument. I’m expecting them to probably disappoint people early on in the season (like Kansas City did when they reworked a large part of their line last offseason), but to improve a lot as the season goes on.
That said I believe we have 7-12 potential they’re just going to need to gel together and stay healthy. Unfortunately Jonah is going to have the weak link next to him again.
Eh, LG is the only spot on the OL with a young unknown unlike KC who had 2 rookies starting last season.
Carman will be in his 2nd season at LG where he shown good flashes as a rookie. We brought in proven vets on the OL.
Karras and Cappa playing in a wide zone I think might be the bigger issue than just being new.
These two aren't the most athletic OL unlike La'el who is a freak athlete.