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+--- Thread: AP All Pro released. (/thread-4354.html)
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RE: AP All Pro released. - TheLeonardLeap - 01-08-2016
(01-08-2016, 08:56 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Mack also was named All Pro as a LB
How do you imagine Houston feels having passed up on the kid for Clowney?
Heck, the top 17 picks of the 2014 draft has already produced 3 1st team and 2 2nd team All-Pros? Not too bad.
RE: AP All Pro released. - gobobro - 01-08-2016
(01-08-2016, 05:23 PM)jj22 Wrote: Just when we need to re-sign him....
My hope is his age lowers his price tag. He'll be 33 next September. How much will people offer for a guy that old? I think Zimmer and Guenther (if Guenther gets a job) are just about the only other bidders. Everyone else is looking at a 33 year old who needs to learn a new defense.... I hope.
RE: AP All Pro released. - RoyleRedlegs - 01-08-2016
(01-08-2016, 08:50 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: And only THE guy can be an All-Pro. Nobody chooses a RB for All-Pro who has 130 carries even if he gains 6 YPC on them.
Regardless of who is surrounding them, a good enough guy will always be THE guy. Case and point? There's plenty of other targets in the Steelers offense, but Brown was still All Pro. In 2011 the Patriots had Welker, Gronkowski, Hernandez, and Branch. Didn't stop Gronk from being All Pro.
Gronk > Welker, Hernandez and Branch by a lot. He's the number one guy in NE.
Green is the number one target.
Eifert isn't.
Eifert is more talented than Barnidge. That's not debatable. Difference is simply in their respective teams.
RE: AP All Pro released. - Shake n Blake - 01-08-2016
(01-08-2016, 05:29 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Sure, Eifert leads TEs in TDs this year with 13, but he also has....
52 catches (15th among TE)
615 yards (12th among TE)
11.8 YPC (9th among TE)
38 First Downs (9th among TE)
8 plays of 20+ yards (11th among TE)
Eifert was really never a strong candidate for it, outside of Bengals fans maybe overhyping him a bit as "the second best TE in football". Good season? Absolutely, but not even a top-5 TE season this year. Heck, he arguably wasn't even the best TE in the division this year. Gary Barnidge put up 79/1,043/9 this year.
Well first off, TDs are a pretty big category, especially for TEs. Second, missing 3 games really hurt his overall numbers. He was on pace to go 64-757-16. The catches would've ranked 9th among TEs, the yardage would've been good for 8th and the TDs would've been 1st in the NFL regardless of position.
Gronk: 72-1176-11
Olsen: 77-1104-7
Walker: 94-1088-6
Barnidge: 79-1043-9
Reed: 87-952-11
Honestly, those are the only TEs I think had better seasons, and I think Eifert's projected statline (64-757-16) stacks up even with these. Sure, he didn't have the yardage and catches of these guys, but he also killed some of them in the TD department. I'm sure some will argue that Eifert missed the games and it's not fair to go off of projections. To that I would say that projections are based on averages. When Eifert plays, he plays at an elite level, and that's why many Bengals fans felt he was a top tier TE.
Now 2nd best overall? No, but he was up there no doubt, and it's not homerism to say so.
RE: AP All Pro released. - RoyleRedlegs - 01-08-2016
(01-08-2016, 11:22 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Well first off, TDs are a pretty big category, especially for TEs. Second, missing 3 games really hurt his overall numbers. He was on pace to go 64-757-16. The catches would've ranked 9th among TEs, the yardage would've been good for 8th and the TDs would've been 1st in the NFL regardless of position.
Gronk: 72-1176-11
Olsen: 77-1104-7
Walker: 94-1088-6
Barnidge: 79-1043-9
Reed: 87-952-11
Honestly, those are the only TEs I think had better seasons, and I think Eifert's projected statline (64-757-16) stacks up even with these. Sure, he didn't have the yardage and catches of these guys, but he also killed some of them in the TD department. I'm sure some will argue that Eifert missed the games and it's not fair to go off of projections. To that I would say that projections are based on averages. When Eifert plays, he plays at an elite level, and that's why many Bengals fans felt he was a top tier TE.
Now 2nd best overall? No, but he was up there no doubt, and it's not homerism to say so.
All 5 of those guys was their respective teams #1 target and it wasn't even close in some cases....
Olsen had 33 more catches than #2
Barnidge has 11 more catches than #2
Walker had 58 (FIFTY EIGHT!!!) more catches than #2
Reed had 15 more catches than #2
Gronk had 7 more catches than #2
RE: AP All Pro released. - Shake n Blake - 01-08-2016
(01-08-2016, 11:27 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: All 5 of those guys was their respective teams #1 target and it wasn't even close in some cases....
Olsen had 33 more catches than #2
Barnidge has 11 more catches than #2
Walker had 58 (FIFTY EIGHT!!!) more catches than #2
Reed had 15 more catches than #2
Gronk had 7 more catches than #2
I believe Eifert is more talented than all of these guys other than Gronk and maybe Olsen. I'm just saying that these guys had (slightly/maybe) better seasons production wise. You can make an argument for Eifert being in this group despite being a 2A or 2B target with Marvin Jones.
RE: AP All Pro released. - TheLeonardLeap - 01-09-2016
(01-08-2016, 10:58 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: Gronk > Welker, Hernandez and Branch by a lot. He's the number one guy in NE.
Green is the number one target.
Eifert isn't.
Eifert is more talented than Barnidge. That's not debatable. Difference is simply in their respective teams.
Which is just proving my point. In 2011, Welker had more targets, catches, and yards. By a LOT. Gronk wasn't the number one target. Still took care of business and was an All-Pro.
If we're going to choose All-Pro on un-quantifiable talent/potential that hasn't been achieved yet, then sure. Eifert would win. If we choose it based off of actual production, which can be quantified and is the logical way to do it, then it shouldn't even be a conversation. Should Reggie Nelson give his 2nd team All-Pro spot to Pittsburgh's Will Allen? Sure Allen only has 1 pick to Nelson's 8, but it's not Allen's fault his team doesn't use him as a ball hawking centerfielder. See? Silly, right?
Not to mention Eifert would break like humpty dumpty if he was given Barnidge's workload. Never to be put back together again.
RE: AP All Pro released. - TheLeonardLeap - 01-09-2016
(01-08-2016, 11:48 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote:
I believe Eifert is more talented than all of these guys other than Gronk and maybe Olsen. I'm just saying that these guys had (slightly/maybe) better seasons production wise. You can make an argument for Eifert being in this group despite being a 2A or 2B target with Marvin Jones.
Not so sure he is. What about Jorden Reed? That guy's crazy talented, same age, same draft class, better production, and it's not like the Browns. DeSean Jackson and Pierre Garcon aren't total schmucks.
There's also Travis Kelce, Zach Ertz (Eifert, Reed, Kelce, Ertz all in same draft? Crazy)... heck, Jason Witten is still a beast even at age 33, with Matt Cassel, Kellen Moore, and Brandon Weeden at QB. That's not even mentioning Jimmy Graham.
I'm just saying, we're all so excited as Bengals fans that they finally have a TE who is doing good things that we've kind of all gone overboard with the ridiculous hyperbole of how great he is in the grand scheme of the NFL.
RE: AP All Pro released. - Shake n Blake - 01-09-2016
(01-09-2016, 12:26 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Not so sure he is. What about Jorden Reed? That guy's crazy talented, same age, same draft class, better production, and it's not like the Browns. DeSean Jackson and Pierre Garcon aren't total schmucks.
There's also Travis Kelce, Zach Ertz (Eifert, Reed, Kelce, Ertz all in same draft? Crazy)... heck, Jason Witten is still a beast even at age 33, with Matt Cassel, Kellen Moore, and Brandon Weeden at QB. That's not even mentioning Jimmy Graham.
I'm just saying, we're all so excited as Bengals fans that they finally have a TE who is doing good things that we've kind of all gone overboard with the ridiculous hyperbole of how great he is in the grand scheme of the NFL.
I don't think it's hyperbole to put him in the top 5-6 TEs in the league based on what we saw this year. You say Jordan Reed had better production, but that's debatable. Based on Eifert's projected numbers, he wasn't THAT far behind Reed in yards (200+ yards) while posting more TDs. You say Reed is crazy talented, I think Eifert is viewed the same way across the league. Who high points the ball better than Eifert? He runs great routes and has good speed and cutting ability. The sky is the limit as dude just finished essentially his 2nd season.
This argument reminds me of all the debates about whether or not AJ Green is elite. Even if AJ Green isn't "top 5", who cares? Is it really that big of a difference between the 4th ranked WR and the 7th? Same thing here. Eifert is definitely in the top 7-8 guys. Is there such a huge difference between 4th and 8th that you feel only a homer would say Eifert is the 4th best TE?
Btw, I noticed you took a shot at Eifert's durability, but some of these guys you think are better than Eifert have also missed a ton of games. Kelce missed his entire rookie season. Reed and Gronk have missed a ton of games as well. I just think we got lucky with Gresh (from a health standpoint). TE is a rough position. They do it all and don't have the size of a lineman. I mean, is Eifert really a glass jaw for missing 3 games over a dirty hit?
RE: AP All Pro released. - TheLeonardLeap - 01-09-2016
(01-09-2016, 12:45 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: 1. You say Jordan Reed had better production, but that's debatable. Based on Eifert's projected numbers, he wasn't THAT far behind Reed in yards (200+ yards) while posting more TDs.
2. Is there such a huge difference between 4th and 8th that you feel only a homer would say Eifert is the 4th best TE?
1. His projected numbers? Both TE missed some games. Eifert played in 13, Reed played in 14.
Eifert: 52/615/13
Reed: 87/952/11
I'm not sure how you can look at those, in essentially the same number of games played, and say it's debatable. If you want to do projections, do it for both TE. Here's both of them at their pace projected to 16 games.
Eifert: 64/757/16
Reed: 99/1,088/13
Still not debatable.
- - - - -
2. I have no problem if fans said he was in the 4th-8th range. You could make a case for #4. You could just say "top-5" and I would probably just nod and agree.
My problem comes from when a LOT of people kept just referring to him as the second best TE in all of football. As if it were an unequivocal fact. There's nothing to support that. If touchdowns were the only important thing, the three best WRs in football would be Brandon Marshall, Doug Baldwin, and Allen Robinson. Eli Manning and Blake Bortles would be tied for the second best QBs in the NFL. Adrian Peterson and Jeremy Hill would have had equally good 2015 seasons.
RE: AP All Pro released. - Nate (formerly eliminate08) - 01-09-2016
(01-08-2016, 08:51 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: 4th in sacks.
Watt: 17.5
Mack: 15.0
Ansah: 14.5
Dunlap: 13.5
All those guys are listed as DE, too. So if you're 4th in the league in sacks at your position, it's pretty tough to make All-Pro. Should have absolutely made Pro Bowl though.
- - - - - - - - -
What I don't think I have seen anyone else mention. Didn't Nelson get 2nd team All-Pro? Congrats to him too. Old man safety balling out.
Thanks for this LL. How many sacks does Geno have BTW? Must be atleast 9.5, i heard Atkins/Dunlap is the top duo
in the league in terms of sacks atleast that was until the last game and Geno had a sack in that one.
Mack is going to be special, he has a rare body type with those long arms, speed and strength and can play LB'er or
End. Raiders got something going on down there.
RE: AP All Pro released. - Nate (formerly eliminate08) - 01-09-2016
(01-08-2016, 11:22 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Well first off, TDs are a pretty big category, especially for TEs. Second, missing 3 games really hurt his overall numbers. He was on pace to go 64-757-16. The catches would've ranked 9th among TEs, the yardage would've been good for 8th and the TDs would've been 1st in the NFL regardless of position.
Gronk: 72-1176-11
Olsen: 77-1104-7
Walker: 94-1088-6
Barnidge: 79-1043-9
Reed: 87-952-11
Honestly, those are the only TEs I think had better seasons, and I think Eifert's projected statline (64-757-16) stacks up even with these. Sure, he didn't have the yardage and catches of these guys, but he also killed some of them in the TD department. I'm sure some will argue that Eifert missed the games and it's not fair to go off of projections. To that I would say that projections are based on averages. When Eifert plays, he plays at an elite level, and that's why many Bengals fans felt he was a top tier TE.
Now 2nd best overall? No, but he was up there no doubt, and it's not homerism to say so.
Nice post Shake, i agree completely.
RE: AP All Pro released. - TheLeonardLeap - 01-09-2016
(01-09-2016, 03:16 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Thanks for this LL. How many sacks does Geno have BTW? Must be atleast 9.5, i heard Atkins/Dunlap is the top duo
in the league in terms of sacks atleast that was until the last game and Geno had a sack in that one.
Mack is going to be special, he has a rare body type with those long arms, speed and strength and can play LB'er or
End. Raiders got something going on down there.
Geno is tied for 8th with 3 other guys at 11 sacks.
RE: AP All Pro released. - Shake n Blake - 01-09-2016
(01-09-2016, 03:33 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Geno is tied for 8th with 3 other guys at 11 sacks.
Man. Geno is such a beast. He and AJ may both wind up in the HOF if they can keep it going. A championship would certainly help.
RE: AP All Pro released. - Nate (formerly eliminate08) - 01-09-2016
(01-09-2016, 03:33 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Geno is tied for 8th with 3 other guys at 11 sacks.
Impressive, i knew the dude was ballin but 11 sacks for an interior D-lineman is great.
(01-09-2016, 04:23 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Man. Geno is such a beast. He and AJ may both wind up in the HOF if they can keep it going. A championship would certainly help.
True dat
RE: AP All Pro released. - Bengalsrob - 01-09-2016
(01-08-2016, 09:05 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: How do you imagine Houston feels having passed up on the kid for Clowney?
Heck, the top 17 picks of the 2014 draft has already produced 3 1st team and 2 2nd team All-Pros? Not too bad.
Any team should have seen the Clowney bust coming......there were red flags everywhere!
RE: AP All Pro released. - bfine32 - 01-09-2016
Most team's best receiving option is their main target. Not sure we can hold that against other TEs.
RE: AP All Pro released. - Shake n Blake - 01-09-2016
(01-09-2016, 08:39 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Most team's best receiving option is their main target. Not sure we can hold that against other TEs.
Not every TE has an AJ Green on their team. So should it be held against Eifert that he's not #1?
RE: AP All Pro released. - bfine32 - 01-09-2016
(01-09-2016, 08:49 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Not every TE has an AJ Green on their team. So should it be held against Eifert that he's not #1?
Nope.
RE: AP All Pro released. - bengalfan247 - 01-10-2016
(01-08-2016, 05:21 PM)Stormborn Wrote: Nelson comes in at 2nd team for those who're wondering.
Career year for him no question.
So did Carson Palmer. The only Bengals QB to make the 40K+ career passing yards club.