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+--- Thread: Who to tag? (/thread-4958.html)
RE: Who to tag? - milksheikh - 01-25-2016
(01-25-2016, 05:34 PM)jason Wrote: Why does everybody think the Browns are chomping at the bit to overpay Marvin Jones? They already have a #2 in Travis Benjamin.
They need a #1 or #2 .. + Questions if Gordon will be able to be back and also they are desperate at this point and may just overpay.
RE: Who to tag? - Synric - 01-25-2016
Marvin Jones does everything you need from a WR. He has size speed athleticism blocks runs every route dangerous after the catch catches a high percentage of passes thrown to him (70%+ this season?) His ONLY issue has been lack of targets on a stacked receiving core....
RE: Who to tag? - ItsOdellThurman - 01-25-2016
Travis Benjamin is an unrestricted free agent. He is their own version of Marvin Jones. Hue Jackson already said he wants bigger receivers. It would be totally plausible that they don't even talk to Benjamin and go after Jones.
RE: Who to tag? - Bengal Dude - 01-25-2016
Gotta tag Iloka. He's the only one worth tagging.
I know some are wondering why MLJ would go to Cleveland. Hue would most likely make him their #1 target. Gordon has screwed up so much that I could see Goodell not reinstating him. Also, as crazy as it sounds, MLJ might also enjoy the possibility of catching passes from a Cal QB. Some players enjoy playing with guys from their own schools.
RE: Who to tag? - NATI BENGALS - 01-25-2016
(01-25-2016, 05:24 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Nobody would be my choice.We are a little over a year removed from Burkhead being our #2 WR in a playoff game. We have nobody proven behind AJ at all. Going into the year with one proven WR can be problematic. Ask the Ravens. They had a line of thought like you do last year. Why pay this middle of the pack guy (Torrey Smith) when we can just draft a guy early and plug him in. Well. That didn't work out too well.
Iloka is good, but I don't think he is franchise tag good. If the tag numbers jump from '15 to '16 like they did from '14 to '15, that would mean you're paying Iloka $10.8m or so. There's no way Iloka is a $10m+ Safety. Sign Nelson to the last contract of his career, slot Williams in at the other Safety spot, and then let someone else overpay Iloka.
Marvin Jones certainly isn't a $13.3m wide receiver. I wouldn't even like the 5yr/$40m deal the OP suggested. $8m/yr is just below what Brandon Marshall, Michael Crabtree, and Antonio Brown make. It would tie Marvin Jones for the 18th highest AAV contract for a WR in the NFL. Marvin Jones isn't the 18th best WR in the NFL, the dude has one career game of 100+ yards, this year was the first time he started more than 5 games in a season, and he has a history of foot/ankle injuries. There's a lot of good WRs coming out in every draft who can be a productive #2 WR behind AJ Green and with Eifert and Gio taking attention off them too, but for rookie contract money.
So my answer would be to tag nobody. Then take that money saved and go get a single big time difference maker like Alex Mack, Alshon Jeffery, Von Miller, or Janoris Jenkins. Would much rather have Jeffery for $11m/yr than Jones for $8m/yr.
All those guys you mentioned will most likely be tagged. You know we won't throw a mega contract at an outside free agent like one of them anyway. And going into the draft with a glaring weakness and forcing a pick can be bad.
We are good because we have been developing talent and retaining it. MLJ and Iloka are next in line in that group.
It scares me we really are looking at a roster with Alford and Kumerow as our 2 and 3 WR right now. We play the Steelers, Mitchell head hunts Eifert, now all they have to do is double AJ and we are in bad shape.
We need to give MLJ incentive to sign early so we can use the transition tag on Iloka. It will be a little lower than the franchise tag. The tag for safeties is the 3rd lowest behind kickers and TEs. So if we want to be thrifty that is the position to give it to.
RE: Who to tag? - RagnarLothbrok - 01-25-2016
I think the top priorities, and most would agree: Nelson, Iloka, M. Jones, A. Jones.
That being said, the only one who remotely has earned that is Nelson. He has played extremely well over the past few seasons for us. Iloka is young and not experienced for the money, but he is definitely someone who needs to be retained. Marvin Jones is a good #2 WR, but thats what he is, a burner to fly past defenses. He is definitely worth keeping, but not putting the tag on. Adam Jones played an amazing season and though he shows almost no signs of slowing down, he definitely is a risk with the franchise tag. Nelson would be the best person to lock up with the tag.
RE: Who to tag? - NATI BENGALS - 01-25-2016
(01-25-2016, 05:34 PM)milksheikh Wrote: You make a decent point, New talented receivers are being drafted in the first 3 rounds nowadays. Look at Amari Cooper, Odell, Tyler Lockett, Mike Evans, Jarvis Landry, etc. I think it might not be a bad choice to go to the draft for receiver help and resign the needs and go big on defense in outside FAs.
Plenty of guys drafted in the first three rounds recently haven't done jack. Yes a couple years ago was probably the best WR class ever. That doesn't mean it magically makes this class better. I don't even think there is a top 10 talent at WR this year. Treadwell doesn't seem like that special of a talent to me. I don't think there is a lock stud WR. Definitely nobody I would feel comfortable just giving the #2 job to. Sure I have some WRs in this class that I really like but it kinda feels like a down year for the WRs overall.
WR could go from a relative strength to glaring weakness in a hurry if we go into the year counting on a bunch of unproven guys behind AJ. It usually takes a couple of years for WRs to become productive.
RE: Who to tag? - TheLeonardLeap - 01-25-2016
(01-25-2016, 06:13 PM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: We are a little over a year removed from Burkhead being our #2 WR in a playoff game. We have nobody proven behind AJ at all. Going into the year with one proven WR can be problematic. Ask the Ravens. They had a line of thought like you do last year. Why pay this middle of the pack guy (Torrey Smith) when we can just draft a guy early and plug him in. Well. That didn't work out too well.
All those guys you mentioned will most likely be tagged. You know we won't throw a mega contract at an outside free agent like one of them anyway. And going into the draft with a glaring weakness and forcing a pick can be bad.
We are good because we have been developing talent and retaining it. MLJ and Iloka are next in line in that group.
It scares me we really are looking at a roster with Alford and Kumerow as our 2 and 3 WR right now. We play the Steelers, Mitchell head hunts Eifert, now all they have to do is double AJ and we are in bad shape.
We need to give MLJ incentive to sign early so we can use the transition tag on Iloka. It will be a little lower than the franchise tag. The tag for safeties is the 3rd lowest behind kickers and TEs. So if we want to be thrifty that is the position to give it to.
First off, if you really want to pay Marvin Jones exactly how Torrey Smith got paid, lets look at the stats...
Torrey Smith first 4 years: 64 games (62 starts) / 213 catches / 3,495 yards / 30 TD
Marvin Jones first 4 years: 43 games (21 starts) / 132 catches / 1,729 yards / 15 TD
Those don't look like two players who should be paid equally. The Ravens knew that was overpaying for Torrey Smith, and sure enough Smith ended up with 33/663/4 in his first year of that deal.
Secondly! Letting Torrey Smith go in FA isn't the reason they went from a 10 win team to a 5 win team. Lol.. they also lost their best pass rusher in game 1, their #1 WR in game 7, their running back in game 10, and their quarterback in game 10 as well. None of that would have been fixed by Torrey Smith.
Third and finally on this point! It DID work for them to just plug in a new guy. Kamar Aiken, undrafted nobody, who's been on four teams in the NFL stepped up and put up a 75/944/5 season even with subpar QBs throwing to him. With Smith and Perriman back in 2016, combined with Aiken, I would put the Ravens WRs ahead of the Bengals. You bash the Ravens losing their WR they drafted in the first round before the season started, but the exact same thing happened to Marvin Jones just last year, and yet you want to pay him $8m/yr instead. Doesn't make sense.
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Alex Mack actually can't be franchise tagged, he'll be almost certainly using an opt out clause.
Von Miller might not be tagged. The Broncos are currently projected for $13m in cap space in 2016. The LB tag is projected to be $14m and the DE tag is projected to be $15.5m. They could clear space to make the tag happen, but then they're basically saying goodbye to all their other FA.
Alshon Jeffery will probably get tagged because the Bears are projected to have a ton of cap space, but who knows if they think he'll be worth the $14.5m tag.
Rams have the cap space to tag Jenkins, but is he a $13.8m CB in their eyes? That'd put him behind only Revis, Sherman, and (lol) Brandon Carr (lol) in 2016 CB cap hits, but more likely just the first two since there's almost no chance Carr doesn't get cut.
RE: Who to tag? - Junglejuice - 01-25-2016
No Tag.
Get the deals done you want done or draft/hire role players.
We still have to sign some core guys.
RE: Who to tag? - NATI BENGALS - 01-26-2016
(01-25-2016, 07:25 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: First off, if you really want to pay Marvin Jones exactly how Torrey Smith got paid, lets look at the stats...[quote pid='170165' dateline='1453760757']
Torrey Smith first 4 years: 64 games (62 starts) / 213 catches / 3,495 yards / 30 TD
Marvin Jones first 4 years: 43 games (21 starts) / 132 catches / 1,729 yards / 15 TD
Those don't look like two players who should be paid equally. The Ravens knew that was overpaying for Torrey Smith, and sure enough Smith ended up with 33/663/4 in his first year of that deal.
Secondly! Letting Torrey Smith go in FA isn't the reason they went from a 10 win team to a 5 win team. Lol.. they also lost their best pass rusher in game 1, their #1 WR in game 7, their running back in game 10, and their quarterback in game 10 as well. None of that would have been fixed by Torrey Smith.
Third and finally on this point! It DID work for them to just plug in a new guy. Kamar Aiken, undrafted nobody, who's been on four teams in the NFL stepped up and put up a 75/944/5 season even with subpar QBs throwing to him. With Smith and Perriman back in 2016, combined with Aiken, I would put the Ravens WRs ahead of the Bengals. You bash the Ravens losing their WR they drafted in the first round before the season started, but the exact same thing happened to Marvin Jones just last year, and yet you want to pay him $8m/yr instead. Doesn't make sense.
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Alex Mack actually can't be franchise tagged, he'll be almost certainly using an opt out clause.
Von Miller might not be tagged. The Broncos are currently projected for $13m in cap space in 2016. The LB tag is projected to be $14m and the DE tag is projected to be $15.5m. They could clear space to make the tag happen, but then they're basically saying goodbye to all their other FA.
Alshon Jeffery will probably get tagged because the Bears are projected to have a ton of cap space, but who knows if they think he'll be worth the $14.5m tag.
Rams have the cap space to tag Jenkins, but is he a $13.8m CB in their eyes? That'd put him behind only Revis, Sherman, and (lol) Brandon Carr (lol) in 2016 CB cap hits, but more likely just the first two since there's almost no chance Carr doesn't get cut.
Torreys last two years in bmore compared to MLJs last two healthy years shows you the production isnt that far off. About 400 more yards for Torrey and 1 more TD and that was with him being a #1 wr a full year before steve smith showed up. San fran was a train wreck. Not surprising his numbers sucked.
The ravens started 3-7. They sucked with their QB and #1 wr and rb. Losing Torreys big play ability was more than a little part of that. Hence why they trade to replace his big play ability with a speedy first round pick wr. Damn near all their games were close. Having a dependable WR could have easily swayed those outcomes.
They didnt just plug Kamar in. It was the guys 5th year in the league. He played in all 16 games for them in 2014. And was on their practice squad in 2013.
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[quote pid='170165' dateline='1453760757']
Marvin is going to get paid. We have money to spend. And we have built a successful team retaining guys who we have built up. I dont see any reason to change that formula that has proven to work around the league. You know we are not going to make somebody the highest paid center in the league. We wont sign the best pass rushing LB in the league he might get a 100mil contract. The Rams cant afford to let on of their best players leave i havent looked but they probably dont have many players even in the discussion about being taggable. And we wont sign the best free agent WR available.
If and when we give out hefty contracts this year it will be to our own. And I would like to keep a lot of this 12-4 team together.
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RE: Who to tag? - TSwigZ - 01-26-2016
Shouldn't even be a debate it's Iloka hands down if we can't get him to sign a good contract he NEEDS to be tagged
RE: Who to tag? - fredtoast - 01-26-2016
No team should ever plan on using the tag. It is better to work out a deal to keep the players you want lomg term. Players don't like the tag and teams get no long term stability.
Bengals are not tight against the cap at all. They have managed thei contracts as good as any team in the league. They should be able to keep everyone they want. Jones and Iloka are both key players on our team. Since we build through the draft we need to step up and pay to keep the talent we develop when they are just entering their prime.
If we do have to tag one player i would say Nelson. i really want to keep him around, but i would not give him anything more than a 2 year deal. If he demands something longer then I might consider tagging him. None of the tags are cheap, but safety has to be one of the lower prices.
RE: Who to tag? - fredtoast - 01-26-2016
(01-25-2016, 07:31 PM)Junglejuice Wrote: No Tag.
Get the deals done you want done or draft/hire role players.
We still have to sign some core guys.
This.
The only time I think a team should use the tag is if they are about to lose a guy and have absolutely no replacement plan other than a rookie draft pick. In that case it might be a benefit to keep the free agent around for a year while his replacement develops. But generally the tag is a lose/lose situation. The player does not like the tag because it does not give him any long term security, and the team does not like to pay top 5 money for a player who is rarely worth it and does not even want to be there.
RE: Who to tag? - yellowxdiscipline - 01-26-2016
Surprised no one is talking about getting Eifert extended this season. Philly did us no favors by giving Ertz a stupid deal for a mediocre Tight End.
RE: Who to tag? - fredtoast - 01-26-2016
(01-26-2016, 01:59 PM)yellowxdiscipline Wrote: Surprised no one is talking about getting Eifert extended this season. Philly did us no favors by giving Ertz a stupid deal for a mediocre Tight End.
Since Eifert was a first round pick we can actually keep him for two more years. But that fifth year gets expensive. Right now we are paying Zeitler over $8 million for 2016. If we could work out a long term deal with him we might actually SAVE money against the '16 cap. Most players will take a pay cut for one season in exchange for getting more guaranteed money over the length of a contract.
RE: Who to tag? - OrlandoBengal - 01-26-2016
I really like Marvin Jones, but don't think he is worth anything close to the franchise tag. In fact, I think the five years and $40 million that has been discussed is high. I could see him more in line with a Golden Tate contract (five years and $31 million). He is a good receiver, but there is no question he is the number two guy here, and he has a history of injuries. I would like to keep him, but if someone is going to break the bank then I think they just have to look at replacing him.
I pretty much feel the same way about Iloka, although I would use it on him before Jones. I think you approach them both with longer term deals and try to get it done early. That said, I would not expect either of them to take any type of discount and would not be surprised if they test the market to see what is out there. Even then, the team can always come back and try to match it (assuming the player wants to be here, which I would expect is the case).
RE: Who to tag? - OrlandoBengal - 01-26-2016
(01-26-2016, 03:01 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Since Eifert was a first round pick we can actually keep him for two more years. But that fifth year gets expensive. Right now we are paying Zeitler over $8 million for 2016. If we could work out a long term deal with him we might actually SAVE money against the '16 cap. Most players will take a pay cut for one season in exchange for getting more guaranteed money over the length of a contract.
Agree, there is a lot of time left before they have to worry about Eifert. With everything on their plates, I would not expect to see anything here until at least training camp when they know who they have and what they have to work with.
RE: Who to tag? - coachmcneil71 - 01-26-2016
(01-25-2016, 12:28 PM)yellowxdiscipline Wrote: I love MJ, but hes not a #1.. He'd get shut down everytime. He thrives off the focus that defenses give AJ Green. MJ going to Cleveland would be a career killer. Yea the money might be there but hed going to a franchise in shambles with so much quarterback uncertainty. He needs to suck it up, and accept that hes best suited as a number 2 somewhere with stability behind the center.
Cleveland would consider him a #1...just saying. Hue knows MJ well and knows how to get him open when needed. They may get Gordon back but they can't put all of their eggs in that basket. I think C-land drafts a WR after grabbing a QB and I also think they sign a WR in FA.
Gotta tag one of the S imho.
RE: Who to tag? - OrlandoBengal - 01-26-2016
(01-26-2016, 03:26 PM)coachmcneil71 Wrote: Cleveland would consider him a #1...just saying. Hue knows MJ well and knows how to get him open when needed. They may get Gordon back but they can't put all of their eggs in that basket. I think C-land drafts a WR after grabbing a QB and I also think they sign a WR in FA.
I don't think Hue would consider him a number one receiver. Hue knows very well that Jones benefited by playing across from AJ Green. I would like to think that Hue is smart enough, and is going to have enough input into personnel decisions, that Cleveland will not continue to make some of the same mistakes they have been known for.
RE: Who to tag? - TheLeonardLeap - 01-26-2016
(01-26-2016, 03:17 PM)OrlandoBengal Wrote: Agree, there is a lot of time left before they have to worry about Eifert. With everything on their plates, I would not expect to see anything here until at least training camp when they know who they have and what they have to work with.
Hopefully next year Eifert can start 16 games, so I would feel better about the Bengals giving him a deal before his 5th year option comes into play. If he misses another 3-5 games, it starts getting tricky though. The closest he's come to a full season is his rookie year when he started 15, but he wasn't playing a full workload of snaps in those 15 games. (In 2013, Eifert played only 59.5% of the snaps despite starting 15 games.)
So at that point, do you pay him big TE money based on potential of if he could stay healthy for a full starters workload, or do you try to pay him with that injury risk included and risk losing him to FA?