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+--- Thread: Andy top 5 qb of all time? (/thread-6862.html)
RE: Andy top 5 qb of all time? - jeremydc - 07-08-2016
(07-08-2016, 10:24 PM)Nately120 Wrote: The way the NFL has been going, QBs are going to be throwing for 5,000 yards in their sleep by the time Dalton retires.
Yup, especially with rule changes favoring the offense. It may look like the Arena league if not balanced out.
RE: Andy top 5 qb of all time? - Wes Mantooth - 07-09-2016
Since we're on the subject of passing numbers, specifically passing yardage and completion percentage, I figured we could throw out some random comparisons, without any context given.
--Drew Bledsoe threw for more career yards than Joe Montana.
--Tony Romo has thrown for more career yards than the following QB's: Terry Bradshaw, Roger Staubach, Joe Namath, Bart Starr, Kenny Anderson, Phil Simms, Boomer Esiason...
(Note: Tony Romo didn't even play in his first two seasons, missed almost another entire season due to injury, and is always on the outside looking in when it comes to conversations of elite. He's this generations Bernie Kosar or Dave Kreig. Despite shorter season for some, he still dwarfs a lot of these guys numbers is less games played.)
--Carson Palmer is currently 18th in total yards. 18th. And he's still active. He'll pass Unitas and Fouts this year. There's a very, very realistic chance he's end up in the top 10. Of all freaking time. Believe or not, there's a decent chance he'll pass Elway.
--1/3 of the top 20 QB's of all time are currently active. And that's not including recently retired guys like Manning and Favre.
--Matt Ryan is a 1,000 yards away from Troy Aikman in career yards. Pedestrian, right in the middle of his career Matt Ryan will probably surpass all time great Troy Aikman by week 4. Whoa.
--Jay Cutler has thrown for more yards than Ken Stabler and Ron Jawarski, and bunch of the guys listed with Romo.
--Matt Stafford has thrown for more yards than both Jim Plunkett and Joe Theisman.
--Jon Kitna thew for almost 50% more yards in his career than Bernie Kosar. Jon Kitna, who was a backup for the majority of his career.
I could go on and on. I only did this to try to show dumb passing numbers are without context. Not only are guys throwing more now than ever, but you need other stats to even try to judge a QB. What are their TD's, the INT's, are they winning?
I mean, you tell me which player had the better season:
Player A - 4500 yards, 64% compl, 31 TD's, 23 INT's. Lost in Wildcard round.
Player B - 4000 yards, 62 compl%, 29 TD's, 7 INT's. Lost in Superbowl
We need a lot more than passing numbers to judge a QB, and if they're brought up at all we definitely need to discuss era played.
RE: Andy top 5 qb of all time? - tlotharw - 07-09-2016
(07-08-2016, 08:38 AM)Jpoore Wrote: I do not think he needs to win a Super Bowl remember Peyton manning was regarded as a top 5 qb of all time before he won the 2 Super Bowls I think if he just makes a super bowl or 2 he should be in the convo for at least top 10
Ken Anderson
RE: Andy top 5 qb of all time? - THE Bigzoman - 07-09-2016
This year is a defining year for Dalton.
Dalton needs to make the most of what he has and hope the injury plague doesn't hit the offense .I'll consider it if he manages that.
RE: Andy top 5 qb of all time? - McC - 07-09-2016
(07-08-2016, 10:29 AM)muskiesfan Wrote: You asked about the wrong QB. If you had said McCarron, the answers would have been way different.
Gotta keep the myth rolling, right? Going so far as to toss him into a topic that doesn't concern him. Talk about obsessed.
RE: Andy top 5 qb of all time? - Nately120 - 07-09-2016
How many times has Dalton been ranked within the top 5 QBs in a single season?
RE: Andy top 5 qb of all time? - wolfkaosaun - 07-10-2016
(07-09-2016, 11:24 PM)Nately120 Wrote: How many times has Dalton been ranked within the top 5 QBs in a single season?
Altogether or in certain aspects?
Dalton was a top 5 QB last year. Although he isn't mentioned due to his injury, he was still in MVP talks.
In 2013, Dalton was top 3 with TD passes.
He's been top 10 in passing yards numerous seasons. And top 10 in passing TDs numerous seasons.
RE: Andy top 5 qb of all time? - kevin - 07-10-2016
(07-08-2016, 08:02 AM)Jpoore Wrote: If you look at his stats the argument can be made he has 18,008 passing yards 62.3 percent completion 233 yards per game... To put that in perspective tom Brady had in his first 5 seasons 18,029 passing yards with a 63 percent completion rate
He is certainly one of the best Bengal quarterbacks of all time....I would first put Ken Anderson ...and then Boomer Esiason....and then Andy Dalton.....and then Carson Palmer......and then Virgil Carter for the 1970 play-off season.....with a sadness to Greg Cook for what might have been....So Dalton going play-off seasons his first 5 years certainly moves him into # 3 for me....and play-off wins and Super Bowl trip might make him best Bengal quarterback ever....
For now though, since I don't even consider him best or second best Bengal QB ever, then I would not put him with stars of their Era's such as Sammy Baugh, Otto Graham, Johnny Unitas, Bart Starr, Terry Bradshaw, Joe Montana, Brett Favre, John Elway, Tom Brady, Peyton Manning.....with many, many others I would put ahead of Dalton at this point....and Dalton behind Ken Anderson and Boomer Esiason to me at this point.
Hey, with our tough defense....Lets go Super Bowl a couple times and put Dalton with THE GREATS.
Now is Dalton one of the Top 5 Active Quarterbacks going into 2016 season ???......I would think he is up there. Tom Brady, Big Ben, Aaron Rodgers, Drew Brees, Russell Wilson have those Super Bowl rings though, and Cam Newton just made it to the Super Bowl....so there is room for argument even on Active QB's. .......It's not all passing yards, and leading your team to wins is part of a quarterbacks job. Dalton has been a great regular season quarterback and is 5 for 5 in getting Bengals to play-offs......but, we all know our franchise play-off futility.
RE: Andy top 5 qb of all time? - 'E' - 07-10-2016
Way too soon for this talk. Revisit in 5 years and see how it looks then.
Please disregard the above. What I meant to say was, not gonna happen. Not even close.
RE: Andy top 5 qb of all time? - SHRacerX - 07-10-2016
(07-08-2016, 08:02 AM)Jpoore Wrote: If you look at his stats the argument can be made he has 18,008 passing yards 62.3 percent completion 233 yards per game... To put that in perspective tom Brady had in his first 5 seasons 18,029 passing yards with a 63 percent completion rate
I like where you are going with this and people don't give Andy enough credit for what he took over and where he led them.
However, to be considered Top 5 all time, he will need:
Super Bowl Victory
National TV Victories
A "super season" or two- where he literally has 50 TD passes, 5,000 + yards, etc. Although this is dictated largely by schemes, and with Marvin's "get a two score lead in the third quarter and try to protect the lead" menatility, I doubt this. I loved reading how Brady and Bellicheat don't even look at the scoreboard. They just want to score every time they touch the ball.
Durability- something like a 15 season career where he ends up in the Top 5 of yards, TDs, and completion %.
All that being said, what we saw from Dalton last year and how confident the guy has become, I would not count him out.
He won't be molesting coeds and going to jail (or should have, Pig Ben)
He won't be out drinking the night before the game (Akili)
He won't get fat (Pig Ben, again)
He won't stop trying to shove it up everyone's arse that doubted him.
RE: Andy top 5 qb of all time? - SHRacerX - 07-10-2016
(07-08-2016, 08:42 AM)Rhinocero23 Wrote: lol...this is not a serious question is it?
You do realize that in 2000...Brady's 1st season...he played in 1 game and had 3 attempt right? Come on man!
In those 4 (not 5) seasons he was 9-0 in the playoffs 3 SB rings. In those 9 playoff appearances he had 11 Td's and 3 int's.
This is a team sport and Brady had an all-time great defense with him when he started. Dalton did not. You are starting to see the struggles for Brady now that he is paid top QB money and his team has not been able to keep everyone that they could have in the past.
Brady is top 2 all time, but he didn't start off as the QB he is now. I think his point is "where can Dalton go?"
RE: Andy top 5 qb of all time? - Nately120 - 07-10-2016
(07-10-2016, 03:51 AM)wolfkaosaun Wrote: Altogether or in certain aspects?
Dalton was a top 5 QB last year. Although he isn't mentioned due to his injury, he was still in MVP talks.
In 2013, Dalton was top 3 with TD passes.
He's been top 10 in passing yards numerous seasons. And top 10 in passing TDs numerous seasons.
I'm not bashing Dalton, but it's going to take more than a few decent rankings against the field an being "in MVP talks" to be a top 5 QB in the history of the NFL. If we are just talking about total yardage, well, that's a different thing but we are going to see players like Matt Stafford become paper HOF-ers if we start going by that metric.
The guy has lots of career left, but he's going to have to start being an unquestioned #1 QB or so for a while if he's going to be some sort of American hallmark of QBing. Top 10 in 2015 ain't gonna cut it.
RE: Andy top 5 qb of all time? - muskiesfan - 07-10-2016
(07-09-2016, 02:03 PM)McC Wrote: Gotta keep the myth rolling, right? Going so far as to toss him into a topic that doesn't concern him. Talk about obsessed.
It was a joke. I didn't think the ninja smiley was necessary.
RE: Andy top 5 qb of all time? - wolfkaosaun - 07-10-2016
(07-10-2016, 11:58 AM)Nately120 Wrote: I'm not bashing Dalton, but it's going to take more than a few decent rankings against the field an being "in MVP talks" to be a top 5 QB in the history of the NFL. If we are just talking about total yardage, well, that's a different thing but we are going to see players like Matt Stafford become paper HOF-ers if we start going by that metric.
The guy has lots of career left, but he's going to have to start being an unquestioned #1 QB or so for a while if he's going to be some sort of American hallmark of QBing. Top 10 in 2015 ain't gonna cut it.
I wasn't talking about all time. Nately asked when was Dalton considered a top 5 QB in a season. That's what I was responding to.
Dalton a top 5 QB of all time? He's going to have to do some CRAZY AMAZING things for that to happen. And I hope it does.
RE: Andy top 5 qb of all time? - Nately120 - 07-11-2016
(07-10-2016, 06:43 PM)wolfkaosaun Wrote: I wasn't talking about all time. Nately asked when was Dalton considered a top 5 QB in a season. That's what I was responding to.
Dalton a top 5 QB of all time? He's going to have to do some CRAZY AMAZING things for that to happen. And I hope it does.
I'm aware you were directly addressing my question, but I tied it back to the original theme of the thread, my bad! This reminds me of last off-season's debate on ranking the Bengals' QBs where I pointed out that Anderson, Esiason, and Palmer all had higher peaks and rankings compared to the field of QBs at the time than Dalton did. Dalton was on his way to that in 2015, but an injury threw it out of whack. I was just saying that Dalton is going to have to start/keep showing he's top 5 (for a whole season) against the guys playing now before we can rank him in the top 5 of every QB to ever step on the field.
Anywho, this thread seems to be about net career yards SO I guess Dalton COULD end up top 5 of all time in that category.
RE: Andy top 5 qb of all time? - jason - 07-11-2016
Andy Dalton....
Great QB or the greatest QB?
RE: Andy top 5 qb of all time? - Benton - 07-11-2016
Andy is on his way to being a great QB. Where the rest of his career and if winds up being highly regarded comes down to the next few years. With the team he has around him, if healthy, there's no reason he can't win a Superbowl. Ten years from now, if he's still playoff winless, good passing numbers and several winning seasons won't mean much.
RE: Andy top 5 qb of all time? - Brownshoe - 07-11-2016
(07-11-2016, 04:16 PM)Benton Wrote: Andy is on his way to being a great QB. Where the rest of his career and if winds up being highly regarded comes down to the next few years. With the team he has around him, if healthy, there's no reason he can't win a Superbowl. Ten years from now, if he's still playoff winless, good passing numbers and several winning seasons won't mean much.
I would be really surprised if in 10 years he doesn't have a SB ring. But, you have to admit him breaking the 4th quarter comeback franchise record his first year, having the Bengals passing records, and having the best road record in his first 5 years in the history of the NFL is still pretty impressive.
RE: Andy top 5 qb of all time? - Nately120 - 07-11-2016
(07-11-2016, 05:01 PM)Brownshoe Wrote: I would be really surprised if in 10 years he doesn't have a SB ring. But, you have to admit him breaking the 48th quarter comeback franchise record his first year, having the Bengals passing records, and having the best road record in his first 5 years in the history of the NFL is still pretty impressive.
It's impressive, but you also have to take into account the fact that the game is designed to make QB records much easier and Dalton is breaking the records of a guy who is out west breaking the records of Kurt Warner. It's sort of like in today's NFL if your QB is breaking old franchise records (see Fitzpatrick FINALLY breaking Namath's TD record for the Jets, or Jay Cutler's inability to break Erik Kramer's TD record for the Bears) if you are even a remotely decent starting QB. Dalton's road record is significant because it is compared to the rest of the NFL, so that is a good one. Bengals franchise records? Meh, you're supposed to break those if you don't stink.
Breaking franchise records is nice, but a lot of them are just sort of expected of a QB who isn't a one-year bum.
RE: Andy top 5 qb of all time? - Brownshoe - 07-11-2016
(07-11-2016, 05:26 PM)Nately120 Wrote: It's impressive, but you also have to take into account the fact that the game is designed to make QB records much easier and Dalton is breaking the records of a guy who is out west breaking the records of Kurt Warner. It's sort of like in today's NFL if your QB is breaking old franchise records (see Fitzpatrick FINALLY breaking Namath's TD record for the Jets, or Jay Cutler's inability to break Erik Kramer's TD record for the Bears) if you are even a remotely decent starting QB. Dalton's road record is significant because it is compared to the rest of the NFL, so that is a good one. Bengals franchise records? Meh, you're supposed to break those if you don't stink.
Breaking franchise records is nice, but a lot of them are just sort of expected of a QB who isn't a one-year bum.
The 4th quarter comeback franchise record his rookie year is big too. Those kind of stats don't get inflated as the years go on, but I do mostly agree with you about the other franchise records. They're still pretty impressive to me though. Considering Dalton broke them only a few years after Palmer left.