(07-05-2015, 03:08 PM)Stormborn Wrote: Well, we got something correct here.

Sooooo, a low YPC or an even lower Yards per route run (1.29, which btw is 15th out 19 TEs who played 50% of their teams snaps) isn't his fault because he wasn't the signal caller. How about averaging only 4.2 yards after catch per reception (19th out of 35 TEs who played 50% of their teams snaps).

In his time here, he was a solid red zone target, a dump off man, a good effort guy, and a borderline knucklehead. A weapon... not so sure.

(07-05-2015, 06:53 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Am I the only one that finds it strange the you and Zerker NEVER disagree about anything and usually come to the aid of each other?

I do remember that he was among the league's best in YAC in 2013. 
http://espn.go.com/blog/cincinnati-bengals/post/_/id/8328/bengals-jermaine-gresham-tyler-eifert-yards-after-catch-factoid

Matter of fact this shows that he got over half his total yards in YAC every year in stripes but one.
http://www.foxsports.com/nfl/jermaine-gresham-player-stats

He also had the 1st or 2nd best Playoff game of any TE that year and on of the few that had 2 good playoff games as a Bengal 

If you and yout alter don't consider a TE that had over 45 catches every year he was here a weapon; then we just disagree

(07-05-2015, 06:42 PM)BritishBengal Wrote: What on earth have I started here?!

(07-05-2015, 06:42 PM)BritishBengal Wrote: What on earth have I started here?!

(07-04-2015, 11:53 AM)PDub80 Wrote: 1. QB's performance is not solely just effecting the WR/TEs and their stats. Other things go on in-game that the QB is in control of that influence the running game as well.
2. ADs 7+ turnovers in 4 games ABSOLUTELY effects the defense.
3. The first two playoff games are irrelevant to AD's performances or the team's results.
4. Those blaming the coach's poor performances from the 2005-2010 seasons need to stop living in the past. Marvin Lewis, and his staff, has become much better since the reboot in 2011 at game management, etc. Jay Gruden did have a silly game plan in that first game against the Texans to go away from the Bengals best player, but the on field performances are what the biggest problem was.
5. No one within reason should be calling for Marvin Lewis' head in 2015. He is a much better coach than the 2010 version that should have been run out of town.
6. No one should be blamed anyone on the Bengals for the Playoff loss to the Colts.
7. AD was AWFUL... not just bad... AWFUL in the 3 previous playoff games. Anyone surprised by this at this point hasn't been watching with open eyes. He's a streaky player and as inconsistent as the weather. Period.
8. What about 8 seasons of prime time choking? AGAIN, the coaching staff and team as a whole has been MUCH improved from 2011-present so that can't be laid on or off of them completely.
9. Why can't the QB bail out the D when it matters most? Or turn around a tough first quarter? He hasn't shown the ability to when the pressure is on. Period.

(07-05-2015, 06:53 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Am I the only one that finds it strange the you and Zerker NEVER disagree about anything and usually come to the aid of each other?

I do remember that he was among the league's best in YAC in 2013. 
http://espn.go.com/blog/cincinnati-bengals/post/_/id/8328/bengals-jermaine-gresham-tyler-eifert-yards-after-catch-factoid

Matter of fact this shows that he got over half his total yards in YAC every year in stripes but one.
http://www.foxsports.com/nfl/jermaine-gresham-player-stats

He also had the 1st or 2nd best Playoff game of any TE that year and on of the few that had 2 good playoff games as a Bengal 

If you and yout alter don't consider a TE that had over 45 catches every year he was here a weapon; then we just disagree

(07-05-2015, 11:03 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Terrible QB play, a defense that plays timid and gets burned by big plays (both running and passing). No matter how many turnovers the QB has, the defense looks the same. It's been a theme throughout Marv's tenure, and no, it has not improved.

(07-04-2015, 06:25 PM)Hammerthis Wrote: IMO anyone seriously thinking Andy is on par with Carson, does so out of biase. Therefore, I'll be brief. Carson didn't have a #1 ranked pass protection OL, nor a great defense. He had two good WRs.
Andy has 1st round draft talent all around him, good grief man! The players on our team make Andy better, Carson makes his teammates better.

(07-05-2015, 11:03 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: 2. Dalton had 1 turnover against the Colts and 1 turnover in the Texans 2.0 game. The defense played the same. Same struggles against the run and pass, same lack of forced turnovers and sacks.

(07-05-2015, 11:35 PM)Stormborn Wrote: Well of course we disagree, nothing wrong with that. People have favorites and they don't coincide with other favorites. One thing that will always resonate for me with Gresh is that he didn't live up to his draft status considering other notables were drafted after him. Products of systems? Maybe. But that doesn't mean a lot at the end of the day when two guys are considered at the top of the position group and the other is basically average.

As for the rest... I had to blow a lot of that comic stuff in klotsch out of my ass but it was needed for a good cover for my alt.

(07-06-2015, 01:53 AM)BengalChris Wrote: Wow this thread has some millage.

What we need is a thread like this about an up and coming coach.

(07-06-2015, 09:17 AM)Tiger Teeth Wrote: It would just turn into a Dalton thread.

(07-04-2015, 10:07 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Palmer never even made the playoffs with the Cards.  He did start 6-0 last year, but he only played one playoff team in that stretch.

(07-06-2015, 12:04 PM)BengalChris Wrote:  You would think that they'd be working with him a lot, but if they are why the regress last year?

(07-05-2015, 11:35 PM)Stormborn Wrote: Well of course we disagree, nothing wrong with that. People have favorites and they don't coincide with other favorites. One thing that will always resonate for me with Gresh is that he didn't live up to his draft status considering other notables were drafted after him. Products of systems? Maybe. But that doesn't mean a lot at the end of the day when two guys are considered at the top of the position group and the other is basically average.

As for the rest... I had to blow a lot of that comic stuff in klotsch out of my ass but it was needed for a good cover for my alt.

(07-06-2015, 10:36 PM)PDub80 Wrote: I know it is long, but hear me out on this. It's sort of my Da Vinci Code!!!!!


A different way to sum up the prospect hopes AJ McCarron and Andy Dalton....

One of my best friends and I had lunch today and talked sports. He's a life long Browns fan and I am a life long Bengals fan. Neither of us are homers by any stretch. I was talking to him about this thread and some of the arguments in both sides. He summed up my thoughts incredibly and I thought I would share because it might better describe what a lot of us less-than-enthusiastic Dalton guys are thinking when it comes to McCarron.

He brought up Bill Belicheck and how he once said that he doesn't focus on a players ceiling, but instead is more interested in their floor. Meaning: What's the worst the guy is going to be any given week? Basically, the thought is that he can game plan around that as more of a certainty than hoping a guy plays like a star every game. With Tom Brady in particular, his thinking was that even in Tom's worst games he was able to bring back or keep Michigan close enough to win at the end of games - even if he had been playing poorly most of the game.

With Dalton, his floor is abysmally low and that pendulum swings wildly based on almost no real trend. He can be a star one week against a strong opponent and then drop off and just have a terrible game against a weak one. What stinks as a fan is that if his floor was just a good or even average game it would be good enough with the talent around him to win against most NFL teams most weeks - and you can ride that kind of QB into a Superbowl. With AJ McCarron, I am hoping that AJ's floor is consistently higher than Dalton's and that he plays above it with more consistency.

Some stats to back up AD's inconsistency....

Game by game QBR as per ESPN for 2013 & 2014

NOTE: I am putting an * if they lost

2013
1   97.2 *
2   81.7
3   105.5
4   58.2 *
5   81.1
6   105.9
7   135.9
8   125.7
9   55.4 *(OT)
10 52.3 *(OT)
11 62.7
12 83.6
13 120.5
14 86.4 *
15 136.2
16 62.2
PO 67.0 *

2014
1   98.7
2   116.6
3   68.9
4   117.4 *
5   93.5
6   55.4 *
7   89.3
8   79.1
9    2.0 *
10 143.9
11  84.6
12  60.7
13 128.8 *
14  53.6
15  93.1
16  83.7 *
PO  63.4 *

- What does this mean? Compare it to (most) other good QBs: Rivers, Wilson, Alex Smith, Big Ben, Eli Manning, Romo and a host of others and you will see an occasional dip into a low QBR, but it is rare and typically few and far between on a season by season basis.

- Guys with similar erratic play and lows: Cam Newton, Matthew Stafford, Joe Flacco (the only one who has won a Superbowl). Kaepernick gets a special mention here because he was erratic and had lows in 2014, but his QBRs in 2012 & 2013 were incredibly strong all the way through the season and the playoffs with only a dip or two.

Even more interesting is that none of the above low floor QBs made it past the 2nd round last year. The only two to make it out of the first round were Cam Newton (playing a beat up Cardinals team), and Joe Flacco (playing a familiar opponent in the Steelers).

Conclusion: For the Bengals to go far into the playoffs and be consistent the QB position doesn't have to throw 100+ ratings. Instead, it has to raise it's floor by (guessing) 15 points in QBR from the mid 50's into 70 or above territory. I don't care if that is AD, AJ MC, or some guy out on the street or whoever. If the floor of the QB position stays around the 50's the chances of winning in the playoffs drops off a cliff.

(07-07-2015, 01:07 AM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Yup. And here's a comparison of the QBs over the last 2 years that have played at least 22 games and how their floor has looked. First number is how many sub70 ratings they had in '14. Second number is how many sub70 ratings they had in '13, then the total for the 2 years.