(04-21-2017, 04:40 AM)The Caped Crusader Wrote: One, I don't doubt the internet has plenty of AJM fans. The internet has plenty of people that support the KKK too. I don't really think that makes a huge difference in the opinion here, nor does it create a legitimate argument by stating the size of ones backing.

Secondly, I never dogged, discredited or broke down AJM. What I simply said was that you're hard selling something that one, hasn't really had the opportunity, two, doesn't entirely deserve it and three, are pushing it WAY too much. I've said AJM is talented, and he definitely DEFINITELY deserves a starting spot on a team. Especially with the trash that is out there. That being said, you've pushed arguments to the point of blinding over this guy. It's like Tebow or Manziel. We've seen four games of game tape, and in those four games, he was okay.

So, again, we don't see eye to eye, and my dogging you has more to do with the fact that you're entirely too in AJM's alley considering playing time. But...agree to disagree.

(04-21-2017, 10:51 AM)Wyche Wrote: I agree....but I have stated numerous times I think he's a very good backup, possibly the best in the league.  I've also maintained that he would be, at the very least, a good stop gap starter.  I'm just not sure how that's "not dealing in reality"?

(04-21-2017, 01:28 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I pretty much completely agree with this. I see McCarron as a top notch backup, but I think his flaws would likely get exposed as a full-time starter. I think he could be a stopgap somewhere or maybe compete to start with some of the QB needy teams. Where I draw the line is when people compare him to Brady or throw out all these proposals where we get a 1st round pick and then some. 

I think it's more likely that Mac doesn't get traded at all (due to lack of interest) than him getting traded for a kings ransom. This isn't to say McCarron sucks. Just saying that I don't believe teams will view him as worthy of offering up a 2nd rounder or better, and then handing him the keys to their franchise. If/when he becomes a free agent, I do think some team will sign him with intentions of letting him compete for the gig. That said, maybe they'll view him as a 28 year old (when this happens) career backup with 4 starts to his credit.

TL/DR: I like McCarron a lot as our backup, but I hate how overrated he is by some. 

(04-21-2017, 03:15 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: AJM is a steal for a team in need of a starting QB for  a year at less than 800K to kick the tires. Texans spent 17 million just last year for Brock who also was back up with little NFL experience

(04-21-2017, 03:54 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Don't you think the Osweiler failure gives teams pause at overpaying for a backup QB?

(04-21-2017, 03:59 PM)Bengal Dude Wrote: It didn't pause the Bears this offseason.

(04-21-2017, 03:59 PM)Bengal Dude Wrote: It didn't paws the Bears this offseason.

(04-21-2017, 03:15 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: AJM is a steal for a team in need of a starting QB for  a year at less than 800K to kick the tires. Texans spent 17 million just last year for Brock who also was back up with little NFL experience

(04-23-2017, 05:25 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I think teams probably viewed Osweiler as a better prospect than McCarron. He was a 2nd round pick with size (6'7" 240 lbs) and an arm...and better combine numbers.

Folks on here praise McCarron for his performance against Denver...well guess who was the QB for Denver that day? Osweiler (299 yards, 1 TD, 100.3 rating) outplayed McCarron that day.

So higher draft pick, better size, better arm, bigger (and better) sample size to go on (275 pass attempts and 7 starts to go on compared to 160 attempts and 4 starts for Mac). On top of that, there was more hype because Osweiler played for the champion Broncos and learned behind Peyton. 

I'm sure teams thought more highly of Osweiler, and look how he turned out.

(04-23-2017, 05:56 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: This is a really solid argument for Osweiler, but one of AJM's strength's isn't measurable by stats or at a combine.  It is one of those words I hate, but I think it applies here:  moxy.  AJM just has a leadership quality that is hard to quantify, but being one of very few college QBs to win multiple NCAA championships, I think it applies to him.  I can't say much about Osweiler as far as his leadership or intangibles, but he sure does throw it to the other team a lot in the NFL.

Folks might think I'm biased, but I root for the Browns #2 (very distant 2nd) and I would love to see him there.  

(04-23-2017, 06:02 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I agree Mac has that in spades, but so did Tebow, whose presence was legendary. Not saying they're equal QBs, but how much do teams value the leadership?

You still have to be able to play. I'm not saying Mac can't, but he doesn't have the physical tools, the sample size was small. Did he do enough to convince teams he's worth a 2nd or better when they wouldn't spend a 4th or 5th on him in 2014? Mind you he's also 27 now. Not exactly old, but 5 years older than a typical rookie QB.

(04-23-2017, 05:25 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I think teams probably viewed Osweiler as a better prospect than McCarron. He was a 2nd round pick with size (6'7" 240 lbs) and an arm...and better combine numbers.

Folks on here praise McCarron for his performance against Denver...well guess who was the QB for Denver that day? Osweiler (299 yards, 1 TD, 100.3 rating) outplayed McCarron that day.

So higher draft pick, better size, better arm, bigger (and better) sample size to go on (275 pass attempts and 7 starts to go on compared to 160 attempts and 4 starts for Mac). On top of that, there was more hype because Osweiler played for the champion Broncos and learned behind Peyton. 

I'm sure teams thought more highly of Osweiler, and look how he turned out.

(04-24-2017, 08:26 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: Interesting analogy with Tebow, as he actually beat the steelers in the playoffs whereas AJM had them beat before the implosion.  They were totally different QBs, though.  Tebow was more of a read-option QB with a great threat as a runner.  

As far as not having the physical tools, I completely disagree.  He isn't a runner even of Dalton's caliber, but his arm is not suspect as many have described.  He had what is commonly referred to as a "dead arm" when he came out of Alabama.  That is the same thing Colin Kaepernick is now being described as having and after DeShawn Watson threw a measly 49 MPH on the gun at the combine, teams are starting to wonder the same thing about him.  It makes sense, as all of those guys saw a lot of action in college.

They basically red-shirted him his rookie season to heal and strengthen his shoulder and he responded extremely well.  A lot of those injuries require surgery if a certain tendon is torn (I had this) but his just needed a lot of PT. 

The point about his age is valid, despite the fact that we keep seeing guys like Fitzpatrick get a shot around the league.  Someone recently quoted the best value in the NFL is a QB on his rookie contract.  

I don't think anything will happen and he will still be here, but I hope for his sake and the goal of getting additional help (hopefully at pick #33) that it will.  

(04-24-2017, 10:51 AM)Luvnit2 Wrote: No doubt, they did think higher of Brock. But, you are ignoring the fact major difference kicking tires for less than $800K a year versus 17 million a year. QB needy teams will have to pay millions a year for a rookie QB starter or a veteran with flaws too like Griffin (1st round pick and #1 overall), Colin or many others.

AJM value is his contract and his brains dissecting defenses. I am not saying he is a franchise or top 20 QB in the NFL, but for that low price tag there is little risk to figure it out in my opinion. Thus, on the Bengals side the exact reason they don't care his draft position (5th round) because now it is irrelevant just as is the draft position of Tom Brady, Wilson, Favre, Prescott and the many other QB'S who were not 1st round picks.

AJM may be a better stop gap NFL starter for a few teams in my opinion who could develop into a top 15 to 20 NFL QB at a low risk financially.

(04-21-2017, 03:59 PM)Bengal Dude Wrote: It didn't pause the Bears this offseason.

(04-24-2017, 11:55 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: ...and you're ignoring the fact that even if a team likes what they see after that 800k trial run, they'd immediately be faced with a potential nightmare scenario of losing him after 1 year. Not to mention the fact that his salary would suddenly balloon to way more than what any rookie makes. Jared Goff got a 4 year, 28 million contract last year as the #1 overall pick. By QB terms, that's an amazing deal from the team's perspective. Far less than what McCarron would make if he actually panned out. That's why I didn't address the 800k bargain for McCarron...it's only a bargain if it doesn't work out...which would be bad anyway because it'd mean wasted picks. If it does work out, then said team is risking (a) losing him after 1 year and (b) possibly signing a 1 year wonder to a long term deal. 

I feel like some of you guys never think about this from the other team's perspective. Any team that trades for McCarron will be...

1. Giving up premium draft picks for a 27 year old QB with 4 starts who was drafted in the (late) 5th round.
2. Due to expectations from surrendering said picks the team would obviously be handing over the keys to this QB for the season.
3. If Mac doesn't work out, you look foolish and lost picks.
4. If he does work out, you could immediately have a Kirk Cousins situation, where you don't want to commit to a long term deal for a possible one-hit-wonder.
5. If Mac works out, he will still be more expensive than any rookie QB, even a 1st overall pick.

You don't see where this could potentially become a disaster whether or not Mac pans out? Teams think about this stuff. On paper, it doesn't look very enticing to me. McCarron would have to be 100% the real deal for me to consider it, and I don't think he proved that after our offense had 4 of their 5 worst outputs with McCarron under center.

(04-24-2017, 12:22 PM)Nately120 Wrote: No, but the Bears also let their own version of Kurt Warner and/or Tom Brady walk out the door when they didn't lock Josh McCown up long-term following his time as their starter completing 66.5% of his passes with an 8.2 Avg and throwing 13 TDs to 1 INT with a 109 rating.  Oh wait, he went to two different teams and led them to 1-win seasons, whoops.

Finding a QB is hard work.  Hell, you can  look at a lot of decent starters in the league and see many weren't as prized as their production would lead you to think.  

- Brady was a 6th round pick
- the Dolphins used a high pick on a QB people aren't sure of 6 years later
- The Bills got a FA QB
- the Jets have two ho-hum 2nd round picks in the QB room

- the Chiefs traded for a guy who lost his job to a guy who lost his job to Blame Gabbert
- the Raiders have Carr who looks better than the 3 QBs taken ahead of him
- the Broncos rode a "one hit and he's done" FA QB we didn't even want on a hypothetical to the SB twice and then let his backup get overpaid elsewhere
- the Chargers have a bit of a no-brainer at QB, but they did let Brees walk

- Pig Ben was a great pick in a fairly loaded QB class
- the Ravens have a QB who either stinks or drags a team all the way
- we have a QB who was taken after 3 QBs who were busts
- the Browns have started 50 QBs, none of which were much good

- the Texans refuse to draft a QB
- the Titans made a logical choice
- as did the Colts
- Jaguars spent a 3rd overall pick on a QB who has the mechanics of a 7th rounder

- Cowboys lucked into what seems like a great QB because other teams kept sniping the ones they really wanted
- Giants have today's version of Jim Plunkett, so good for them
- DC paid a QB $22 million or so to drop a "win and you're in" game at home
- Eagles had "the future" with Foles and then end up trading the farm for a QB a few years later.  Who saw that coming?

- Seahawks have a franchise QB that saw 3 QBs taken before him fall into irrelevance
- Cardinals got Palmer for a 6th round pick or so to replace a prized FA pickup in Kolb and a top 10 draft bust in Leinart
- Rams traded the farm for a guy who looks super not ready, but the jury is out
- 49ers are starting a former top 10 bust-turned-joke over a QB who got them further than we've been in decades

- Packers again have one of the greatest QBs ever after that damn near every other team passed on
- Lions have a 1st overall pick at QB and 0 playoff wins to show for it (that organization is right up there with ours in post-season futility though)
- Vikings traded a 1st rounder for a former 1st overall pseudo-bust due to an insane injury
- Bears have had 2 decent QBs in 30 years and one of them is Cutler...ouch.  Let McCown walk after a miracle season, gave Glennon at least $19 million

- Falcons have Matt Ryan who was a logical pick
- Bucs have Winston who was also a logical pick
- Saints got Brees when he was a FA with a "career-threatening" shoulder injury
- Pathers have Cam who was a logical pick


Ok, that was fun.  So it looks like less than 10 NFL teams have starting QBs that were taken in a rational fashion, and that is with whole slew of experts and highly paid executives pulling the strings.  I tells ya, this stuff just hain't easy!

(04-24-2017, 12:41 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Part of the reason is that it takes a good offensive line and atleast 1 good WR for a QB to succeed.

They need time to throw and they need guys to catch passes.

You figure, 4000 yards is a really good year for a QB. You need one receiver to get 1200+ yards for that...but you also need 2800 yards from other guys. Bad teams don't have that type of talent.

(04-24-2017, 12:40 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: Actually it is 2 years and not one unless AJM wins arbitration because he was injured his rookie year thus did not get the year counted.
So, year 1 they get him for around $750K and year 2 around $2.3 million so an average of $1.5 million a year for 2 years for a starting QB. If they don't like him (AKA like Brock was hated in Houston), they simply don't put a tag on him and let him walk.

I agree the draft pick is the key to the compensation for both teams involved.

(04-24-2017, 01:08 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I could easily see Mac and his agent not wanting to play for $2.3 million if he throws for say 4000 yards and 25 TDs. 

Speculation obviously, but I could see that being an issue.

Then there's all the other stuff I mentioned.