(07-04-2017, 11:24 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: 1. Ok. If you say so Mr. Bfine.

2. If that's your opinion, I respect that. The part I don't respect is where you've been suggesting that only a homer would take Andy over some of the guys you listed. It's quite easy (as I've shown you) to make an argument for Andy against any of them. He stacks up quite well and has had a fine career. Perhaps saying he belongs in the top 10 is a bit optimistic, but saying he ranks 18th is definitely about as bad as you can possibly rank him without people brushing your opinion off as utterly ridiculous.

3. I would've put Eli on your list over Mariota or Winston. IMO, Tannehill did not have a better season than Dalton although it looks debatable either way. CP9 wasn't better than Dalton so whether you like him or not should be irrelevant. Trubisky isn't even viewed as a good prospect...it was a weak QB class.

4. I'm sure you've always deferred to these same "experts" when it's been time to rank coaches? Somehow I doubt that.

5. I've never made that Peyton (or Brady) comparison. You'll have to take that up with guys like Philhos. So you can't use that argument against me. 

6. Matt Schaub was a fantastic QB for most of his career. Dalton's career rating is also better than:

Andrew Luck
Derek Carr
Carson Palmer
Matt Stafford
Cam Newton
Ryan Tannehill
Eli Manning
Joe Flacco
Alex Smith
Sam Bradford

(07-04-2017, 11:59 AM)bfine32 Wrote: 1. I do and it is

2. I have not used the word homer, I just take issue with those that think there is some conspiracy by National media to slight Andy. In the article linked in the OP I could not find anyone ahead of him that would be considered an insult 

3. So we agree that I just didn't but every decent NFL QB ahead of him

4. The latest coaches ranking has Marvin as 17th. I can roll with that.
http://www.nfl.com/photoessays/0ap3000000816560
Heck I'm even willing to give those that have only been doing it for a year or two credit as being better, are you?

5. I'll take you at your word that you were not proclaiming Andy's excellence 2 years into his career

6. Schuab was very good as a starter, His rating is hurt by some rankings he received as a back up. Tyrod Taylor and Marcus Mariota also have a higher career rating than Andy. Do you happen to have the playoff rankings?

(07-04-2017, 12:44 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: 1. Sure.

2. You called 15th a "homer rank" in post #18.

3. I'll amend by saying "almost" all decent QBs. Better?

4. Your posting history in regards to Marvin Lewis says you don't think Marvin is a below average Head Coach.

5. Well you should, because I never claimed "excellence" in year 2 with Andy. I defended him and viewed him as adequate with room to grow back then. Never once made a Peyton or Brady comparison. I intentionally steered clear of those and didn't agree with the numbers comparisons. Different era's and passing rules.

6. Agree on Schaub. Taylor and Mariota don't have the required career attempts (1500) to even show up on Pro Football Reference's rankings. I don't have playoff rankings in front of me, but I can tell you that 2 of the QBs on your list (Carr and Winston) haven't even played in a playoff game, and I know from previous Marvin debates with you, that you believe making the playoffs and being terrible > not making the playoffs at all.

(07-04-2017, 02:13 PM)bfine32 Wrote: 1-3 Done

4. Seems I take you at your word; however, the same courtesy is not extended. I have never whined about the National perception of Marvin Lewis. As a matter of fact I only know of one place where he is rated unfairly. Can you guess where that is? I also noticed that you didn't answer my question: Do you think it's fair for coaches with 3 or fewer (seems to be the QB benchmark) seasons be ranked ahead of Marvin or should they have to prove themselves? 

5. As I said: I'll take you at your word.

6. Of course a team that makes it to the playoffs is better than one that is not; however, that has zero to do with individual accomplishments. MTF, the best playoff QB under Marvin Lewis' tenure is AJ McCarron. As to Shuab: I can agree he and Andy are similarly talented QBs and Shaub was all set the be the Raider's starter until a second rounder beat him out. 

(07-04-2017, 03:23 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: 4. Sorry, it just didn't make sense that you've been defending a coach for 10 years that is almost universally panned by the same experts whose opinions you apparently value. To answer your question, yes coaches should be given 3 years to prove themselves either way. It's tough to formulate a solid opinion after only a year or two. Chip Kelly started off looking like he'd be better than Marv. Now look. Ron Riviera looked pretty bad after 2 seasons...now he has 3 division titles, a SB apperance and 3 playoff wins.

6. AJ McCarron has a 68.3 rating, which would still rank dead last among active players, if he qualified. 4 different QB's...all terrible under Marvin Lewis. Just makes me wonder. Not sure what you're driving at with what you said about Schaub. He was washed up by the time the Raiders signed him.

(07-04-2017, 04:15 PM)bfine32 Wrote: 4. Only been defending Marvin from the experts on here that blame him for everything. So you disagree with the coach's ranking and feel Marvin should be ahead of Adam Gase and Dan Quinn; fair enough. I think they have shown enough promise to currently get the nod over Marvin.

6. How could AJ be dead last with 68.3 while Andy boasts a 57.8. True there have been 4 QBs that have played under Marvin any idea who the worst is? Let's look at the games and see if we can find a reason:

Pitt 05: Carson was getting ready to blow up Pittsburgh anyone who questions that is either fooling themselves or being disingenuous. Kitna comes in cold and throws as many playoff TDs as Andy has in his Career,

NYJ 09:  Game was on a field that was a sheet of ice

11-14: 3 games played indoors and one game played in perfect outdoor conditions. QB combines for a passer rating of 57.8

Pitt 15: Played in the rain and Starting his 3rd ever NFL game AJ McCarron has a passer rating that is 10 points higher than the combined playoff rating of the Bengal QB that had started the previous 4'

Of course if one wanted to go with the "It's the coach" slant then one would expect both Palmer and Kitna to do better in their playoff games under different coaches. Do you need me to share those numbers with you

(07-04-2017, 04:15 PM)bfine32 Wrote: 4. Only been defending Marvin from the experts on here that blame him for everything. So you disagree with the coach's ranking and feel Marvin should be ahead of Adam Gase and Dan Quinn; fair enough. I think they have shown enough promise to currently get the nod over Marvin.

6. How could AJ be dead last with 68.3 while Andy boasts a 57.8. True there have been 4 QBs that have played under Marvin any idea who the worst is? Let's look at the games and see if we can find a reason:

Pitt 05: Carson was getting ready to blow up Pittsburgh anyone who questions that is either fooling themselves or being disingenuous. Kitna comes in cold and throws as many playoff TDs as Andy has in his Career,

NYJ 09:  Game was on a field that was a sheet of ice

11-14: 3 games played indoors and one game played in perfect outdoor conditions. QB combines for a passer rating of 57.8

Pitt 15: Played in the rain and Starting his 3rd ever NFL game AJ McCarron has a passer rating that is 10 points higher than the combined playoff rating of the Bengal QB that had started the previous 4'

Of course if one wanted to go with the "It's the coach" slant then one would expect both Palmer and Kitna to do better in their playoff games under different coaches. Do you need me to share those numbers with you

Quote:It's worth noting that McCarron is a former fifth-round pick that has thrown all of 119 NFL passes since being drafted in 2014. He acquitted himself fairly well in three starts at the end of the 2015 season when Andy Dalton went down with a broken thumb on his throwing hand, but McCarron struggled badly during the Bengals' first-round playoff loss to the Steelers. 

(07-04-2017, 05:16 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: 4. If I were ranking coaches, I'd probably put Gase and Quinn in an "up and comers" tier. They look great now, but like Chip Kelly, there could be a serious decline after the initial success. Sometimes coaches (and QBs/players) aren't able to sustain that success. I'm not concerned with what you think about posters on this board. I'm more interested in why you value the opinion of experts with regards to Dalton, but the same experts have not swayed your opinion on Marvin through the years.

6. What I'm saying is this: If you replace Dalton on that list with any of the other QB's that played a playoff game for Marvin (Palmer, Kitna, McCarron), any of them would rank dead last, behind Andrew Luck. 

Pitt 15: Ben had a 92.0 rating against a much tougher defense...on the road, in the same conditions. That rating was 23.7 points better than McCarron's. Not sure the rain had much to do with it. Any way you try to slice it or excuse it, a 68.3 passer rating is bad. If you don't believe me, maybe you'll believe an "expert"?



http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/bengals-reportedly-want-at-least-a-first-round-pick-for-backup-aj-mccarron/

Not sure how much Palmer and Kitna's other games prove. Kitna played 1 other playoff game in his first year as starter. You seem to excuse McCarron's performance due to age/experience and if you apply the same standards to Kitna, that game shouldn't count. Palmer has 2 games since he left. One was pretty good, the other was awful. So at least Arian's was able to get something out of him. It's more than Marvin can say after 4 QBs and 7 starts. And that's only touching on the QB's. There's been plenty of team-wide failure.

(07-04-2017, 06:22 PM)bfine32 Wrote: 1. I've generally agreed with the expert's assessment of Marvin. I'm not sure how much slower I can type that. 

2. Hell Marvin got a passer rating of over 118 out of Carson; that's something, right? Pretty much anything you say can be countered by something else you said in efforts to pump up Andy and dog Marvin.

Not sure where I ever said AJM's passer rating was good 3.( I do appreciate that you compared him to seasoned Big Ben), 4. I just said it was 10 points higher than Andy's. Hell if you want to compare their first playoff games, AJ is 16 points higher. What does that say about Andy? 5. Why the hell wouldn't Kitna's and Palmer's games count while playing with other coaches to show the problem might not have been the coach?......Never mind, I know. 

6. Of all the things that amuse me in this Board; nothing does more so than folks trying to explain/excuse why Andy has absolutely shit the bed in the playoffs. He is 4th of 4 in QBs under Marvin's tenure and he is 15th of 15 in the NFL. Yep, top 10 QB. 

(07-04-2017, 04:15 PM)bfine32 Wrote: 4. Only been defending Marvin from the experts on here that blame him for everything. So you disagree with the coach's ranking and feel Marvin should be ahead of Adam Gase and Dan Quinn; fair enough. I think they have shown enough promise to currently get the nod over Marvin.

6. How could AJ be dead last with 68.3 while Andy boasts a 57.8. True there have been 4 QBs that have played under Marvin any idea who the worst is? Let's look at the games and see if we can find a reason:

Pitt 05: Carson was getting ready to blow up Pittsburgh anyone who questions that is either fooling themselves or being disingenuous. Kitna comes in cold and throws as many playoff TDs as Andy has in his Career,

NYJ 09:  Game was on a field that was a sheet of ice

11-14: 3 games played indoors and one game played in perfect outdoor conditions. QB combines for a passer rating of 57.8

Pitt 15: Played in the rain and Starting his 3rd ever NFL game AJ McCarron has a passer rating that is 10 points higher than the combined playoff rating of the Bengal QB that had started the previous 4'

Of course if one wanted to go with the "It's the coach" slant then one would expect both Palmer and Kitna to do better in their playoff games under different coaches. Do you need me to share those numbers with you

(07-04-2017, 09:59 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: One game by a QB under any HC proves nothing ! It's the body of work that equals up to the sum.

But in your opinion, how many more seasons does Marvin need to get a fair chance ? What would you tell the experts on here ?

Does 0-8 in the playoffs do it ? 0-10 ? If he goes 3 more seasons against Pittsburgh and still hasn't got this third win at PBS against them does that do it ?

You tell us at what point Marvin can be held accountable.

(07-04-2017, 05:16 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: 4. If I were ranking coaches, I'd probably put Gase and Quinn in an "up and comers" tier. They look great now, but like Chip Kelly, there could be a serious decline after the initial success. Sometimes coaches (and QBs/players) aren't able to sustain that success. I'm not concerned with what you think about posters on this board. I'm more interested in why you value the opinion of experts with regards to Dalton, but the same experts have not swayed your opinion on Marvin through the years.

6. What I'm saying is this: If you replace Dalton on that list with any of the other QB's that played a playoff game for Marvin (Palmer, Kitna, McCarron), any of them would rank dead last, behind Andrew Luck. 

Pitt 15: Ben had a 92.0 rating against a much tougher defense...on the road, in the same conditions. That rating was 23.7 points better than McCarron's. Not sure the rain had much to do with it. Any way you try to slice it or excuse it, a 68.3 passer rating is bad. If you don't believe me, maybe you'll believe an "expert"?



http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/bengals-reportedly-want-at-least-a-first-round-pick-for-backup-aj-mccarron/

Not sure how much Palmer and Kitna's other games prove. Kitna played 1 other playoff game in his first year as starter. You seem to excuse McCarron's performance due to age/experience and if you apply the same standards to Kitna, that game shouldn't count. Palmer has 2 games since he left. One was pretty good, the other was awful. So at least Arian's was able to get something out of him. It's more than Marvin can say after 4 QBs and 7 starts. And that's only touching on the QB's. There's been plenty of team-wide failure.

(07-04-2017, 06:22 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I've generally agreed with the expert's assessment of Marvin. I'm not sure how much slower I can type that. 

Hell Marvin got a passer rating of over 118 out of Carson; that's something, right? Pretty much anything you say can be countered by something else you said in efforts to pump up Andy and dog Marvin.

Not sure where I ever said AJM's passer rating was good ( I do appreciate that you compared him to seasoned Big Ben), I just said it was 10 points higher than Andy's. Hell if you want to compare their first playoff games, AJ is 16 points higher. What does that say about Andy? Why the hell wouldn't Kitna's and Palmer's games count while playing with other coaches to show the problem might not have been the coach?......Never mind, I know. 

Of all the things that amuse me in this Board; nothing does more so than folks trying to explain/excuse why Andy has absolutely shit the bed in the playoffs. He is 4th of 4 in QBs under Marvin's tenure and he is 15th of 15 in the NFL. Yep, top 10 QB. 

(07-05-2017, 09:26 AM)Wyche Wrote: You mean like Maualuga making Owen Daniels look like Kelen Winslow? Or how bout Gresham dropping all those balls in Houston? Danny Woodhead gashing us?  Forgetting BJGE was on the team in 2013? Gio fumbling inside the 10? Hill's fumble? Burfict and Pac Man's meltdown?  McCarron's poo poo performance? Palmer and the entire team not named Cedric Benson not showing up in 2009? 

That's just the playoffs.....we won't even get into the primetime woes, and other times playoffs were on the line in the regular season and we choked.....or last year when Nugent couldn't hit the Ohio River, and Ogbuehi couldn't block my 4 year old, yet they remained in the lineup until they tanked our season.  Why did Andy let that happen?  Dumbass QB.

Curse that damned number 14 for making everyone from 2005 on meltdown in the bright lights!  Piece of shit!

(07-05-2017, 01:27 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Exactly !

Blaming our playoff losses under ML on Dalton is about equal to blaming the sinking of the Titanic on the guy shoveling coal down in engineering. Yes they're both integral parts of making it go, but the problems and incompetence are from above.

Dalton isn't responsible for having a gameplan that makes AJ Green a decoy for 2/3 of a game. Dalton isn't the one who chooses to run out the clock before halftime. Dalton isn't the one who says there will be no accountability on this team. Dalton isn't the one who decides Maualuga, Nugent, Hunt, Peko, Roland and on and on get to stay on this team way longer than they should. Dalton isn't the one that abandons the running game at the drop of a hat. One could go on and on. But suffice is to say those decisions are from above AD.

And in game Dalton doesn't give up 160 yards rushing a playoff game. Dalton isn't the one who's let rookie QB's shred our defense in the playoffs. Dalton isn't the one that only forced what 2 turnovers on D in the playoffs. Dalton isn't the one that's let opposing QB eat lunch, water the garden, and catch up on the local news while in the pocket with ZERO pressure in the playoffs. Again one could go on and on.

In summary there's a crap ton of blame to go around that has nothing to do with AD. Now to be fair has Dalton been one of the players in the playoff meltdowns ? No doubt !

But he's far from alone, and in my opinion not even close to the main cause.

(07-05-2017, 02:22 PM)Pat5775 Wrote: Great discussion here, honestly. But bottom line is this:

It's been 14 years. 14 years of Marvin Lewis and not a single playoff win. We rarely ever beat Pittsburgh. We struggle mightily in Primetime games. 9/10 times we completely fall apart whenever the going gets tough... This has been a constant for 14 years. To everyone defending Marvin, at what point is enough, enough? Seriously, what is it going to take? I feel like many who make excuses for Marv are still riding the "Black Jesus" hype we all had from 2003-2005. So much time has passed. So much has changed since then. But what hasn't changed? Aside from a small handful of exceptions... We suck when it counts. You can point to any number of reasons why. You can blame players lack of execution, lack of poise, coordinators, injuries, plain bad luck, etc. But who's been at the helm? When will people acknowledge that the team is a reflection of their head coach? At what point will people accept that Marvin is not the one to get us over the hump? After all we've seen over the years, what makes anyone think Marvin is capable of getting us a championship? 

Again... When is enough, enough?

(07-05-2017, 02:51 PM)Hoofhearted Wrote: I don't see to many people making excuses, and even if they do, I don't blame them. I hate to rain on your parade, but Marv is not the problem here. That would be the owner of the team. Unless Marv decided to keep himself employed, give himself a new contract, and be ok with a roughly .500 career winning %... and do so because loyalty, nepotism and "it's better than the 90s". 

But remember, we can certainly take pride in Mike Brown being a loving person, rehabilitation specialist, and gracious giver of second, third and in some cases, 11 chances. This matters, right?

(07-05-2017, 02:51 PM)Hoofhearted Wrote: I don't see to many people making excuses, and even if they do, I don't blame them. I hate to rain on your parade, but Marv is not the problem here. That would be the owner of the team. Unless Marv decided to keep himself employed, give himself a new contract, and be ok with a roughly .500 career winning %... and do so because loyalty, nepotism and "it's better than the 90s". 

But remember, we can certainly take pride in Mike Brown being a loving person, rehabilitation specialist, and gracious giver of second, third and in some cases, 11 chances. This matters, right?

(07-05-2017, 05:30 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Oh I think we all understand the real problem is Mike Brown ! But we can do nothing about that. 

Not that we can fire Marvin either. But make no mistake, ML is not part of the solution he's part of the problem. And that can change