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+--- Thread: Was Kirkpatrick over Zeitler the right choice? (/thread-12717.html)
RE: Was Kirkpatrick over Zeitler the right choice? - BengalsBong - 09-27-2017
Say we paid Zeitler and Whit what they wanted the other O linemen would want paid similar then we could not pay any skill positions.
Why do they call WR QB RB skilled positions and not guards.
RE: Was Kirkpatrick over Zeitler the right choice? - Benton - 09-27-2017
Eh, I'd have let zeitler go, let Jones go, let dre go and signed whit.
We still wouldn't have had a great line, but it wouldn't have been this bad. And it would've given us another year to get og ready.
RE: Was Kirkpatrick over Zeitler the right choice? - J24 - 09-27-2017
(09-27-2017, 10:56 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Zeitler is the highest paid OG and is only 7th...... not worth that.
They had to sign Dre because Dennard has been non existent
What's Dre ranking like 40th? Zietler is a better player at a position where there not so many good players coming out of college in. Dre is an ok player with shit done of talent coming in.
RE: Was Kirkpatrick over Zeitler the right choice? - GreenCornBengal - 09-27-2017
Dre probably isn't worth as much as we pay him, but he is serviceable from what I've seen.
Was he the one that got burned by Allison in OT? IDR who got burned (they obviously felt they had safety help over the top and wasn't there)
Nothing has stood out as extra BAD this year when watching Dre.... he hasn't drawn too many flags from what I can remember... He missed an INT he got his hands on... but really Dre hasn't stood out as good or bad this year.... just mediocre.
Keeping Dre was the right decision, but he should have been kept at a lower price... that would be my only complaint.
RE: Was Kirkpatrick over Zeitler the right choice? - Gdale_Bengal - 09-27-2017
Bengals do not pay premium money for guards. They do not feel like they are worth top end money, and they never have. You can say the same for safeties.
They placed a higher priority on trying to keep Whit because he's a tackle.
RE: Was Kirkpatrick over Zeitler the right choice? - Whatever - 09-27-2017
(09-27-2017, 10:09 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: So far this year, Kirkpatrick's PFF rating is 41.9 which is Poor. He's ranked as the 91st best CB. Zeitler, in a new scheme with the Browns ranks at 72.5 which is Average. Last year he was rated as the #7 Guard in football.
IF we let Kirkpatrick walk, our CB's would have been: Jones/Jackson/Dennard/Shaw then Russell and Benwikere. Granted Dennard has been a disappointment up to this year...but this far this year he's at a 79.6. Jackson has a 77.4. Granted they're not facing a teams #1 WR like Kirkpatrick, but it seems they are capable.
Now the offensive line with Zeitler would have been: Ced/Boling/Bodine/Zeitler/Fisher...and Smith could be rotated with Fisher and Ced and TJ Johnson could be slid in at Center producing something like this: Smith/Boling/Johnson/Zeitler/Fisher.
Which scenario makes the team better?
Personally I think the dropoff from Kirkpatrick to the other CB's is less than from Zeitler to the other lineman. Especially allowing Johnson to slide in at Center.
More food for thought: Jones is a $7.6 million cap hit. Andre Smith makes $3.25 million. Combined you have nearly Zeitler's salary.
I take PFF with a large grain of salt. Dre isn't amazing, but he's a solid starting CB that always seems to get shafted in PFF's rankings.
From a contract standpoint, Dre still has a much more favorable deal. The median for a starting CB is $5.5 mil a year, and Dre is getting $10.5 mil a year, so almost double. However,the median for a starting G is $3 mil a year, and Zeitler is getting $12 mil a year, four times that amount. Guaranteed money is also a big factor, and Zeitler got $23 mil guaranteed compared to $12 mil for Dre. That guaranteed money makes Zeitler a lot harder to get rid of.
At the end of the day, Zeitler is more overpaid for his position and it's harder to cut ties with him, so Dre is a better deal. Being realistic, if we had Z instead of Dre, we would still be 0-3, so I'm not certain what the point we're driving at really is.
RE: Was Kirkpatrick over Zeitler the right choice? - ah5 - 09-27-2017
NO
RE: Was Kirkpatrick over Zeitler the right choice? - HarleyDog - 09-28-2017
I didn't like the dre k signing because he's way overpaid now and overrated. He isn't really that good.
RE: Was Kirkpatrick over Zeitler the right choice? - Nate (formerly eliminate08) - 09-28-2017
(09-27-2017, 05:48 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: Just....just stop
Stop telling the truth?
Never.
If you think Zeitler played well enough here to be the highest paid Guard in the history of the NFL you are a crazy man.
A crazy man i tell yah.
RE: Was Kirkpatrick over Zeitler the right choice? - Nate (formerly eliminate08) - 09-28-2017
(09-28-2017, 07:51 AM)HarleyDog Wrote: I didn't like the dre k signing because he's way overpaid now and overrated. He isn't really that good.
He still is a flambouyant fella as well huh Harley lol
RE: Was Kirkpatrick over Zeitler the right choice? - RoyleRedlegs - 09-28-2017
(09-28-2017, 01:13 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Stop telling the truth?
Never.
If you think Zeitler played well enough here to be the highest paid Guard in the history of the NFL you are a crazy man.
A crazy man i tell yah.
If you think he was a bad run blocker, I would ask that you to never speak on OL issues ever again please. Zeitler was a great run blocker sandwiched between a bad center and a bad run blocking RT. And just because you don't understand how contract markets work once they are reset, don't take it out on Zeitler.
Osemele signed a 5yr 60 million deal in 2016. Decastro and Long also signed huge deals that year. Osemele is the only one of those I'd say is as good as or better than Zeitler. Zeitler is also the youngest of that group. But like Osemele, he reached FA the others didn't so naturally signed for less. Most teams are smart enough to not let top tier guards walk after rookie contracts.
Numerous times he would actually block multiple people at once. But that's not good right?
RE: Was Kirkpatrick over Zeitler the right choice? - HarleyDog - 09-28-2017
(09-28-2017, 01:17 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: He still is a flambouyant fella as well huh Harley lol
Yeah, and that too.
RE: Was Kirkpatrick over Zeitler the right choice? - kevin - 09-28-2017
(09-27-2017, 10:09 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: So far this year, Kirkpatrick's PFF rating is 41.9 which is Poor. He's ranked as the 91st best CB. Zeitler, in a new scheme with the Browns ranks at 72.5 which is Average. Last year he was rated as the #7 Guard in football.MIKE BROWN NEVER PLANNED ON PAYING ZEITLER. Mike Brown on not paying Max Montoya said, " Why should I pay big money for a guard ". He also let Steinback leave. On letting Zeitler leave, Mike Brown again said, " Why should I pay big money to a guard ".
IF we let Kirkpatrick walk, our CB's would have been: Jones/Jackson/Dennard/Shaw then Russell and Benwikere. Granted Dennard has been a disappointment up to this year...but this far this year he's at a 79.6. Jackson has a 77.4. Granted they're not facing a teams #1 WR like Kirkpatrick, but it seems they are capable.
Now the offensive line with Zeitler would have been: Ced/Boling/Bodine/Zeitler/Fisher...and Smith could be rotated with Fisher and Ced and TJ Johnson could be slid in at Center producing something like this: Smith/Boling/Johnson/Zeitler/Fisher.
Which scenario makes the team better?
Personally I think the dropoff from Kirkpatrick to the other CB's is less than from Zeitler to the other lineman. Especially allowing Johnson to slide in at Center.
More food for thought: Jones is a $7.6 million cap hit. Andre Smith makes $3.25 million. Combined you have nearly Zeitler's salary.
So THIS is what you are not seeing. I didn't think Mike Brown would pay Kirkpatrick either because he has been drafting to replace him. Problem was Dennard has never stepped up, WJ3 due to injury is still a rookie CB, and Pacman was facing possible season suspension. I was very glad under those conditions they kept Kirkpatrick at CB. Plus Kirkpatrick and Zeitler were our first round picks the same draft in that Carson Palmer trade. To lose both of them so early would mean we completely blew the Palmer trade. Please do NOT say if we would have dumped Kirkpatrick and others we would have Zeitler because MIKE BROWN NEVER PLANNED ON PAYING ZEITLER. He came out and said so and you can look it up on internet if you care to. No matter who we kept or didn't keep, MIKE BROWN HAD NO PLANS ON PAYING A GUARD. He feels guards are not worth big money no matter how good they are.
RE: Was Kirkpatrick over Zeitler the right choice? - Nate (formerly eliminate08) - 09-28-2017
(09-28-2017, 02:05 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: If you think he was a bad run blocker, I would ask that you to never speak on OL issues ever again please. Zeitler was a great run blocker sandwiched between a bad center and a bad run blocking RT. And just because you don't understand how contract markets work once they are reset, don't take it out on Zeitler.
Osemele signed a 5yr 60 million deal in 2016. Decastro and Long also signed huge deals that year. Osemele is the only one of those I'd say is as good as or better than Zeitler. Zeitler is also the youngest of that group. But like Osemele, he reached FA the others didn't so naturally signed for less. Most teams are smart enough to not let top tier guards walk after rookie contracts.
Numerous times he would actually block multiple people at once. But that's not good right?
Watch Zeitler on pulls to the left last year and tell me how good of a run blocker he was.
Dude was so slow the D-lineman would hit our RB in the backfield all the damn time.
To call him a great run blocker is assinine, sure he was between Bovine and Og but still, he had his problems all by himself and to say he is a GREAT run blocker is more extravagant than me calling him a BAD run blocker. Also saying he was worth the contract the Browns gave him after this play is nutz.
Zeitler is a great pass blocker, not a great run blocker. Put some of that on PA but you will probably defend him.
RE: Was Kirkpatrick over Zeitler the right choice? - RoyleRedlegs - 09-28-2017
(09-28-2017, 03:53 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Watch Zeitler on pulls to the left last year and tell me how good of a run blocker he was.
Dude was so slow the D-lineman would hit our RB in the backfield all the damn time.
To call him a great run blocker is assinine, sure he was between Bovine and Og but still, he had his problems all by himself and to say he is a GREAT run blocker is more extravagant than me calling him a BAD run blocker. Also saying he was worth the contract the Browns gave him after this play is nutz.
Zeitler is a great pass blocker, not a great run blocker. Put some of that on PA but you will probably defend him.
You are literally looking at one aspect of being a run blocker and trying to apply it to the game as a whole. That's lazy and dishonest at worst.
He was a powerful run blocker who was able to generate movement and get to the second level.
He was never a great pulling guard. Wasn't at Wisconsin. It's not his game. This is like saying Brady can't be a great QB because he wasn't great at running the ball.
It's just one part of the whole equation. It doesn't mean that he isn't great.
Even Andre was a shit run blocker towards his end here as injuries kept piling up. Zeitler was in the situation Boling is in now. He has to do the brunt of the work on the left side and that's an insane task for a guard.
Do you know how many of those pulls were blown up because the center lost ground and expanded the distance he had to travel? Do you know how many times he (and Clint) were asked to make incredibly difficult blocks because they knew the center couldn't make them....
No, you arguing that because he wasn't a great pulling guard means all other aspects of his run blocking are bad is asinine and far worse than saying he's a great run blocker. Because he is.
RE: Was Kirkpatrick over Zeitler the right choice? - muskiesfan - 09-28-2017
(09-27-2017, 08:19 PM)Derrick Wrote: Geez! Just watch some of the video clips and you will see Bovine on his ass a lot of the time. The other times he is just out of the play. How can any responsible coach keep running Bovine out there as the center on a piss poor line? Only in Bengalville.
Exactly. I think it speaks volumes to how great our OLine coach really is. PFF has him ranked as almost the worst starting center in the league. Yet he was hand picked by our OLine coach so he's never had competition since he's been here.
RE: Was Kirkpatrick over Zeitler the right choice? - Whatever - 09-28-2017
(09-28-2017, 02:05 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: If you think he was a bad run blocker, I would ask that you to never speak on OL issues ever again please. Zeitler was a great run blocker sandwiched between a bad center and a bad run blocking RT. And just because you don't understand how contract markets work once they are reset, don't take it out on Zeitler.
Osemele signed a 5yr 60 million deal in 2016. Decastro and Long also signed huge deals that year. Osemele is the only one of those I'd say is as good as or better than Zeitler. Zeitler is also the youngest of that group. But like Osemele, he reached FA the others didn't so naturally signed for less. Most teams are smart enough to not let top tier guards walk after rookie contracts.
Numerous times he would actually block multiple people at once. But that's not good right?
Unlike Osemele, Long, and DeCastro, Zeitler has never been a Pro Bowler and never been named an All Pro. You're welcome to your opinion, but the general consensus is that he wasn't even a top 5 G. Aside from QB, good players do not get record setting deals. An elite player may get more than a better player at the same position, but Zeitler isn't an elite player.
I'm not sure where you think teams don't let good guards walk after their rookie deals. The 49'ers let Mike Iupati walk. The Ravens let Osemele and Ben Grubbs walk.
Zeitler isn't worth $12 million a year. Anybody arguing that he is is overating him based on our lack of quality offensive linemen.
RE: Was Kirkpatrick over Zeitler the right choice? - RoyleRedlegs - 09-29-2017
(09-28-2017, 11:19 PM)Whatever Wrote: Unlike Osemele, Long, and DeCastro, Zeitler has never been a Pro Bowler and never been named an All Pro. You're welcome to your opinion, but the general consensus is that he wasn't even a top 5 G. Aside from QB, good players do not get record setting deals. An elite player may get more than a better player at the same position, but Zeitler isn't an elite player.Pro Bowl is a joke. Its a popularity contest.
I'm not sure where you think teams don't let good guards walk after their rookie deals. The 49'ers let Mike Iupati walk. The Ravens let Osemele and Ben Grubbs walk.
Zeitler isn't worth $12 million a year. Anybody arguing that he is is overating him based on our lack of quality offensive linemen.
Ravens had to let those guys walk. Cash strapped. Didnt WANT to.
And Iupati was washed when he left SF. Injuries killed him.
RE: Was Kirkpatrick over Zeitler the right choice? - THE PISTONS - 09-29-2017
(09-28-2017, 11:19 PM)Whatever Wrote: Unlike Osemele, Long, and DeCastro, Zeitler has never been a Pro Bowler and never been named an All Pro. You're welcome to your opinion, but the general consensus is that he wasn't even a top 5 G. Aside from QB, good players do not get record setting deals. An elite player may get more than a better player at the same position, but Zeitler isn't an elite player.
I'm not sure where you think teams don't let good guards walk after their rookie deals. The 49'ers let Mike Iupati walk. The Ravens let Osemele and Ben Grubbs walk.
Zeitler isn't worth $12 million a year. Anybody arguing that he is is overating him based on our lack of quality offensive linemen.
You're missing the big picture. They offered him $5.5 million a year according to Lapham.
IF the Steelers offered DeCastro $5.5 million...and he went to free agency I'm sure he would have signed a huge contract too. But they were smart enough to offer him a reasonable contract BEFORE free agency...not $5.5 million a year.
Maybe had they offered him $8 or 9 million a year he accepts it? Instead they lowballed him.
Serious question: Are you rooting for the Bengals profit margin or the team actually putting a good team on the field?
RE: Was Kirkpatrick over Zeitler the right choice? - Nate (formerly eliminate08) - 09-29-2017
(09-28-2017, 04:19 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: You are literally looking at one aspect of being a run blocker and trying to apply it to the game as a whole. That's lazy and dishonest at worst.
He was a powerful run blocker who was able to generate movement and get to the second level.
He was never a great pulling guard. Wasn't at Wisconsin. It's not his game. This is like saying Brady can't be a great QB because he wasn't great at running the ball.
It's just one part of the whole equation. It doesn't mean that he isn't great.
Even Andre was a shit run blocker towards his end here as injuries kept piling up. Zeitler was in the situation Boling is in now. He has to do the brunt of the work on the left side and that's an insane task for a guard.
Do you know how many of those pulls were blown up because the center lost ground and expanded the distance he had to travel? Do you know how many times he (and Clint) were asked to make incredibly difficult blocks because they knew the center couldn't make them....
No, you arguing that because he wasn't a great pulling guard means all other aspects of his run blocking are bad is asinine and far worse than saying he's a great run blocker. Because he is.
While i agree there are tons more aspects to being a run blocker than just pulling your comparison to Brady not
being a good QB because he isn't a good running QB is another ludicrous thing to say. Not even close to what i am
saying and is just a lazy analogy.
Boling is a fine pulling Guard and was the only Guard that could do it last year. Heck, even Og is a good pulling OT.
This is mostly on PA, with his blocking scheme which is passive and does not work to his Lineman's strengths.
If you are arguing we should of gave Zeitler a much better offer than we did as Pistons brought to our attention i
agree, but he was overpaid by the Clowns and to say different to me is crazy.
We should of paid Whit what he got from the Rams, not what Zeitler got from the Clowns.