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+--- Thread: Remember how Marv coached defense in Baltimore? (/thread-13388.html)
RE: Remember how Marv coached defense in Baltimore? - Luvnit2 - 11-11-2017
(11-09-2017, 12:13 PM)PDub80 Wrote: MARVIN'S MYTH
Marvin Lewis started with the Baltimore Ravens as a Defensive Coordinator in 1996. Here are the Baltimore Ravens defensive rankings in points allowed under Marvin and then the DC’s following him so that we can see if the coaching changes mattered (SPOILER ALERT #1: They didn’t). They changed from a 4-3 scheme to a 3-4 and I will note that so we can see the change and if there was any effect (SPOILER ALERT #2: There isn’t). I will also add in significant player notes so we can see when his roster was elevated with not just good or great players, but also all-timers and Hall of Famers and then see if there were any changes to show Marvin’s “coaching ability” getting better (SPOILER ALERT #3: There were).
- Please note, we can get into all sorts of defensive rankings of other stats like yards, passing, against the run, etc. if you wish, but for this post I’m just going to show this 1 key stat and if people don’t get the point or need this spoon fed to them to the N'th degree, I’ll do so. I’m hoping that we’re all smart enough to see what’s important here.
Below is the Ravens DC/year: Points against ranking of their defense (player notes)
MARVIN/1996: 28/30 (Ray Lewis ROOKIE)
MARVIN/1997: 18/30 (ADDED Siragusa, Jamie Sharper, Michael McCrary, Boulware ROOKIE, Ray Lewis 2nd year – Pro Bowl)
MARVIN/1998: 16/30 (ADDED Rod Woodson, Duane Starks, Boulware 2nd year – Pro Bowl, Lewis – Pro Bowl, McCrary – Pro Bowl)
MARVIN/1999: 6/31 (ADDED: Chris McAlister)
MARVIN/2000: 1/31 (ADDED: Sam Adams, Adalius Thomas)
MARVIN/2001: 4/31 (No NOTABLE ADDITIONS, Thomas 2nd year, Kelly Gregg)
2002 BIG CHANGES…. MARVIN LEAVES FOR THE REDSKINS. RAVENS PROMOTE MIKE NOLAN TO DC. MIKE NOLAN SWITCHES AWAY FROM MARVIN’S DEFENSE FROM A 4-3 TO A 3-4. THERE ARE LITTLE TO NO CHANGES IN THE RAVENS PERFORMANCE ON D...
PLEASE NOTE: Mike Nolan was the Ravens WR coach at the time and had NOTHING to do with Marvin or this BS “Marvin coaching tree” theory. So, don’t go there. Previous to being the Ravens WR coach for 1 season, Nolan was the DC for the Giants, Redskins, and NY Jets. Again, NOTHING to do with Marvin or any sort of tutelage from him.
MIKE NOLAN (promoted from WRs coach)/2002: 19/32 (LOST: RAY LEWIS TO INJURY: PLAYED 5 Games, ADDED: Ed Reed – ROOKIE, Bart Scott - ROOKIE)
For Funsies- MARVIN (REDSKINS DC)/2002: 21/32 (Previous season the Redskins were ranked 13/31 SO, MARVIN REALLY BROUGHT THE THUNDER HERE AND MADE A DIFFERENECE… Psssshhhh)
MIKE NOLAN/2003: 6/32 (ADDED: Ray Lewis full 16 game season)
MIKE NOLAN/2004: 6/32 (ADDED: Terrell Suggs – Pro Bowl, Deon Sanders who played 9 games with 2 starts)
2005 BIG CHANGES. REX RYAN PROMOTED TO DEFENSIVE COORDINATOR. RAVENS SWITCH TO A 4-3. Rex Ryan was the D-line coach under Marvin for 3 seasons AND the D-line coach under Mike Nolan for 3 seasons. NOT enough evidence to show an influence from Marvin OR Mike Nolan to point one way or the other.
REX RYAN/2005: 10/32 (No notable additions)
REX RYAN/2006: 1/32 (ADDED: Dewan Landry, Samari Rolle, Haloti Ngata – Rookie)
REX RYAN switched back to a 3-4/2007: 22/32 (ADDED Nothing Notable)
REX RYAN/2008: 2/32 (ADDED: Fabian Washington)
2009: Changed DC to Greg Mattison: NOTHING TO DO WITH MARVIN. NEVER WORKED WITH HIM IN HIS CAREER
GREG MATTISON/2009: 3/32 (ADDED: Domonique Foxworth, Chris Carr)
GREG MATTISON/2010: 3/32 (ADDED: Cory Redding, LOST Ed Reed for 6 games)
2011: Changed DC to Chuck Pagano: NOTHING TO DO WITH MARVIN. NEVER WORKED WITH HIM.
CHUCK PAGANO/2011: 3/32 (ADDED: Nothing of note)
No reason to keep going at this point, right? I think we’re, what, 4 coaches removed from Marvin and the Ravens have switched schemes and stayed incredibly good on defense. I have shown that there was little to no connection from Marvin to them doing so. I showed where Marvin had received a MASSIVE influx of talent in both young players and veterans still in their prime when he achieved his peak defensive notable achievements. Marvin had several hall of famers and long time NFL greats as well as the guys after him. But, just for fun….
DEEN PEES/2013, 14, 15, 16: 12/32 (Ray Lewis LOST for 10 games), 6/32, 24/32, 9/32
So, please… Tell me again how Marvin Lewis was some incredible defensive coach. He’s a non-factor and beneficiary of UNBELIEVABLE talent. Talent who continued to get better and dominate for long periods of time, through multiple coaches and schemes well after he had left. Meanwhile, the team he went to, the Redskins significantly REGRESSED on defense under Marvin, and the Cincinnati Bengals defense stunk until Mike Zimmer came along (again… NOTHING to do with the Marvin coaching tree). To say that Marvin coached a certain way, blah, blah, blah is just conjecture that means nothing. The results are what they are regardless of how we think/imagine/dream/play make believe Marvin influenced games 20+ years ago. He didn't. He doesn't.
Moral of the story, kids... Do your homework before coming to a conclusion and making a thread. I swear, man. It's like some of you have no idea how to actually use the internet to do research and come out with an informed conclusion.
TY for the research, just a major thing missing. You don't list the players he lost each year. I guess we should ask you to to complete your homework since missing all players who left teh Ravens each year. I give you an incomplete versus a fail since you did do the work to support your criticism of those who questioned you.
RE: Remember how Marv coached defense in Baltimore? - bengalsturntup5532 - 11-11-2017
(11-11-2017, 12:57 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: TY for the research, just a major thing missing. You don't list the players he lost each year. I guess we should ask you to to complete your homework since missing all players who left teh Ravens each year. I give you an incomplete versus a fail since you did do the work to support your criticism of those who questioned you.
Still injuries are part of the game and our team will always have them,injuries over this year is pretty crazy ,everyone is getting hurt. 2005 2006 2007 2008 we got scored on pretty easily. I watched the cin at Pitt game not long ago and Pitt scored on us on their first drive with ease . But we scored right back .we had a elite offense.
RE: Remember how Marv coached defense in Baltimore? - PDub80 - 11-12-2017
(11-11-2017, 12:57 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: TY for the research, just a major thing missing. You don't list the players he lost each year. I guess we should ask you to to complete your homework since missing all players who left teh Ravens each year. I give you an incomplete versus a fail since you did do the work to support your criticism of those who questioned you.
Sure, some notes on that below...
- I listed when Ray Lewis or other major guys were lost to injury or missed significant time in with the additions. There weren't a lot of guys listed because, for the most part, the Ravens were remarkably healthy and outstanding at keeping players in their prime. This was fairly consistent through all of the coaches and DC changes.
- Marvin himself had no major talent attrition to the defensive roster while in Baltimore. After Ray Lewis in 1996 Marvin was the recipient of a huge influx of talent (see 1997 & 1998) with ZERO significant loses to either injury, FA, trade, or retirement.
- Since I was comparing Marvin's success vs that of the other coaches, any talent lost (major or otherwise) AFTER Marvin would only serve to bolster my position and make the other coaches look better since the Ravens D was essentially the same regardless of coach or scheme. Why would that be? Because the Ravens defense didn't fall off in being a top ranked defense and continued that trend for many years and through many coaches AFTER Marvin. So, therefore, any talent lost wouldn't matter in terms of reflection on Marvin in any positive way. Actually, losing talent AFTER Marvin would serve more as a negative. No need to pile on at this point.
Basically, unless there were injuries to Ray Lewis or other major players the Ravens stayed super consistent. Please see 2002 in my post where I noted the Ravens fall to 19th/32 under Mike Nolan where Ray Lewis only played in 5 games only to to be back up to 6th again under Nolan the previous year with Ray Lewis paying in all 16 games. Again, Marvin's tenure in Baltimore saw NO major injuries and NO major losses of significant players.
-Lastly, I have ZERO problems with someone questioning me or something I post. I mean, in general, that's how we have discussions and further our knowledge and have our opinions grow or change. I have NO problems being wrong about something and view being wrong as a chance to learn and get things right. But the person whom I responded to didn't question anything from my original post. Their response was dismissive without even attempting to research what I was saying in response to them. Basically it was a (from the movie The Water Boy) "No, you're wrong, Colonel Sanders!". I have little tolerance for someone who chooses to voice their willful ignorance while responding in a public forum. If someone doesn't want to take the time to do research or ask a question if someone offers a different perspective, why even bother to respond unless it's just to be defensive or argumentative. I mean, why post something in a public forum for others to respond to and have dialogue with you if you aren't interested in learning anything?