(03-21-2018, 05:17 PM)jj22 Wrote: Well then it could have been four. You just don't remember, and your teammates wanted to keep you humble!

(03-21-2018, 05:01 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: You are right. It's not a popular opinion (with me, at least). 


You don't need HoFers at LB, but I don't think you can trot out anything close to what the Bengals did last year. It needs to be much much better. Not going to win too many championships with the 30th ranked rush defense (22nd by YPC).

You mention the Eagles and their highly ranked rushing offense, but you also need to mention that they were the BEST rushing defense in the NFL by yardage, and 6th by YPC. Heck, they were a very mediocre 17th in passing defense, but they could absolutely shut down an opponent's running game.

SB Winner Rush Defense Rank (YPC Rank)
'17 Eagles: 1st (6th)
'16 Patriots: 3rd (8th)
'15 Broncos: 3rd (1st)
'14 Patriots: 9th (8th)
'13 Seahawks: 7th (7th)

Last 5 SB winners right there, and none of them rank outside the top-10 in either of those rushing defense categories. LBs are important, because stopping the run is important.   :andy:

Quote:They say NFL games are won in the trenches. That phrase is mostly true, but having an elite quarterback or a shutdown corner certainly helps, too. The Eagles may not have either (yet), but they’re still among the best teams in the NFL.

How, you ask? By winning in the trenches.

Sean McVay and the Rams are well aware of just how dominant the Eagles are up front, but that won’t make it any easier to run the ball against them on Sunday. McVay has a good grip on what makes the Eagles so good against the run.

“I think they’ve got great players, it’s a great scheme. They’ve got great get-off. You look at the way that those guys up front get off the football, they can run on all three levels, they pursue, they’re sound,” McVay said. “They play a lot of single-high structures, especially on those early down-and-distances. When you’ve got great players and you’re playing a lot of eight-man fronts and things like that, you’re going to get hats to the football.”


The Eagles do play a lot of single-high safety, which allows the second safety to come down into the box. That player is usually Malcolm Jenkins, who can play essentially anywhere in the secondary.




Loaded boxes certainly help stop the run, but McVay heaped praise on the players that the Eagles have on that side of the ball.
“I think it’s a credit to their players, their coaching staff and they mix it up, but it’s just about the effort they play with,” he added. “I think a lot of times, what measures a great defense is the way they come off the football, the way they pursue, the way that they stay sound in terms of their gap integrity and you can see why they are the best run defense in the league.”

(03-21-2018, 06:20 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: There's more to stopping the run than just having awesome LB's though. We had some really good years stopping the run before Burfict even showed up. 

2011: 10th in yards, 8th in YPC
2009: 7th in yards, 7th in YPC

IMO, we didn't have any big time LB's in these years. It was scheme and good DL play. DE's setting the edge. 

Besides, we already have Preston, and Burfict isn't going anywhere. I'm not sure how much things will change under Austin, but we run way too much nickel to be spending a top pick on a SLB that we rarely use. Despite the suspension, I doubt we're drafting Burfict's replacement this year. Marvin has been around for 15 years and the only LB that made an obvious impact was Burfict. I just don't see the value in round 1.

Even with the Eagles, was it amazing LB play that was most responsible for their stout run defense? Pro Football Reference lists them as having 4 different guys who started at least 2 games at MLB. It was a revolving door of Nigel Bradham, Jordan Hicks, Dannell Ellerbe and Joe Walker. Their top LB had 88 tackles. #2 had 73. No other LB had more than 28 tackles.

Check out this article for more insight into why the Eagles were so great against the run: https://theramswire.usatoday.com/2017/12/08/nfl-los-angeles-rams-philadelphia-eagles-week-14-run-defense-sean-mcvay/



To me it seems the Eagles' run success had more to do with an excellent line and scheme, including stacking that box a lot. Which may help explain why their pass D was less than stellar.

(03-21-2018, 07:50 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: I think those two years deserve a big 'ol Zimmer asterisk. I mean, Zimmer can take a defense, throw in 39-year-old Terence Newman and come out with the 2nd ranked pass defense in the NFL, like he did with the Vikings in '17.

Zimmer could make a good defense with Tank Johnson, Roy Williams, Rey Maualuga, Robert Geathers, and Chris Crocker. That doesn't mean anyone else can, though. Lol

Outside of getting Zimmer back as HC/DC, the Bengals need better linebackers.

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Back to the Eagles, while they had a rotating MLB, their other two linebackers on PFF (yes, I know not perfect) were Kendricks (86.0) and Bradham (80.6).  They made up for the lack of MLB by playing a lot of 3 safeties with Jenkins (84.2), McLeod (79.3), and Graham (77.3).

The Bengals' version of that would be 3 LBs and 2 S.... Burfict (84.7), V Rey (45.7), Vigil (35.1), Iloka (77.7), and Williams (79.1)...... with Evans (35.0) coming in while Burfict is hurt/suspended 8 games a year.

Now at least Preston Brown (71.6) will replace one of those three awful players, but it still will be terribly ugly while Burfict is gone. While I will agree with anyone who says the Bengals need a safety who can make plays on the ball, I still think by far the biggest weakness of the defense is the LBs.

That's not even counting their total inability to stop a TE, or pass catching RB, or running QB, which even the addition of Preston Brown doesn't solve. Dude has a career high of 4 PDef, 3 years ago. He seems like a good tackler/run stopper, who won't get you many big plays.

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Interesting article, and I am not arguing the Bengals don't need a DT to go next to Atkins, but I was just saying they can't afford to ignore another LB improvement. Also maybe if Marvin perhaps actually coaches the guys to tackle this year rather than to look to limit practice contact as much as possible, and have all the guys run on their own gas.

Helps the Eagles when they can say...
"We need a better LB": Nigel Bradham is signed.
"We need a better DE": Chris Long is signed.
"We need a better WR": Alshon Jeffery is signed.
"We need better RBs": Blount is signed, Ajayi is traded for.
"We need a better OG": Brandon Brooks is signed.

The Bengals version of that is Brandon LaFell, Kevin Minter, Andre Smith, Michael Johnson, and Cedric Peerman.

(03-21-2018, 08:59 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Do the Eagles get a big ol' Jim Schwartz asterisk? The guy is a great d coordinator. Maybe that's what we really need? The Eagles LB's don't blow me away, and the article I posted kinda puts an emphasis on how big scheme is. They had/have an excellent front 4 and they stacked the box. With our corners (especially WJIII) I think we could get away with some of that if we want to try it. Whatever it takes to get those ugly rushing totals down, right?

Missing Burfict for 4 games is going to suck, but I wouldn't spend our top pick on a guy that's going to mostly ride pine after 4 games. We still have too many holes on the o-line to afford such a luxury. That said...a LB in the 2nd or 3rd wouldn't be a terrible idea. Especially if they're just planning to rent Preston Brown (I hope he's here long term). Regardless, with 11 picks, LB should be in there somewhere...I just wouldn't use the top pick on one.

As for FA, I agree. I have no complaints about what we're doing right now, but it still pales in comparison to the spree the Eagles went on last year. 

(03-21-2018, 12:35 AM)bengalsturntup926 Wrote: If we really want a Superbowl team. Yes we need a center and maybe a right tackle. But 4 games for Burfict that's not including when he comes back and if he knocks out juju. They can do us really dirty and suspend him for the year. So I really like the Alabama linebacker. Leighton Vander esch I'm iffy on. Who else is out there that can potentially be a star. Sad to say but for the Bengals to win we need a straight up stacked team. If burfict is in there then even better,we will have a elite linebacker unit. Like the Broncos had when they won it.

(03-21-2018, 09:15 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Probably? Yeah, a great DC makes a huge difference and covers up a lot of flaws. A great one can turn Terence Newman and Chris Crocker into a top-5 defense, a lesser one is just a mess.


I wouldn't either. My post was never to argue for a LB in the 1st round. Just that 4-3 LB is a part of a championship team and they need to get better. Should probably spend a 4th or a 5th on LB this year, and will probably need to spend a higher pick next year with the 1-year nature of Brown's contract.

I'm all on board that the top 3 picks or so this year need to be 2 OL and 1 DT.

(03-21-2018, 09:41 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Well we're not all that far apart. 

Every player plays a role, and I doubt a team wins a chip with giant gaping holes at LB. It's just that when I look at championship squads, LB isn't usually the position where you say "that's why they won the chip". Especially with 4-3 teams. The Eagles had exceptional QB play, a beast run game, great blocking and maybe the best front 4 in football last year. Honestly, I didn't even know who their LB's were until this conversation. 

With our team, LB seems even more downplayed. You want solid players there, but I don't think a LB will ever be the difference between us winning a championship and not winning a playoff game. That's all I was trying to say.

(03-21-2018, 10:06 AM)jj22 Wrote: We do, and we will get one early. Probably 2 given Brown is only signed for a year.

We all love Burfict, but we can't count on him. That's just what it is at this point.

(03-21-2018, 10:03 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Not too far apart, but a little far on the bolded bit....

Eagles actually seem more of a outlier than anything on the whole LB/Championship thing:
'17 Eagles: As Stated

'16 Patriots: Dont'a Hightower (his absence is probably a big part of why their 2017 defense was ran all over)
'15 Broncos: Von Miller, Brandon Marshall, Danny Trevathan
'14 Patriots: Jamie Collins, Dont'a Hightower
'13 Seahawks: Bobby Wagner, Bruce Irvin
'12 Ravens: Ray Lewis, Terrell Suggs (they played the 49ers, who had Patrick Willis and Navarro Bowman)


Then once you go back a bit further, you start adding more like Ray Lewis/Lawrence Timmons/James Harrison/Tedy Brusschi/Mike Vrabel/etc

I'm not saying all those guys are total gamechangers, but I look at them and go "yeah, they're probably a big part of why they won".

(03-22-2018, 07:11 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Yeah most of these teams run a 3-4 though, and I'm talking about 4-3 LB's. Even then, the Seahawks were known for the secondary, Wilson and Lynch. The Pats for Brady and Gronk + Revis the one year. Ray Lewis was just a name in 2012. His play had slipped in a major way. I'll give you the Broncos, but again...3-4.

If you go back further than that, you're getting into a different era of football. 

(03-21-2018, 04:54 PM)McC Wrote: We sure do.  His did his best work against the Steelers.  

(03-22-2018, 07:35 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Not as much as you might think.

Were they 4-3?
2016 Patriots: Yes
2015 Broncos: No
2014 Patriots: Yes
2013 Seahawks: Yes
2012 Ravens: No

3/5 of those examples were actually 4-3 teams.

Maybe I just appreciate good LBs, but I knew and appreciated Wagner when the Seahawks were in their prime. Guy is easily a top-3 LB in the NFL. He was indeed overlooked by some when they had the Legion of Boom or whatever, but he's been a Pro Bowler and All-Pro for each of the last four years. Heck, in 14 games he had 120 tackles, 5.0 sacks, 7 Pdef, 2 INT for that 2013 SB team. Plus 34 more tackles in the 3 postseason games.

Lewis w
s a bit of a name in 2012, but you can't deny how much he intellectually brought to that team on the field. 4-3 LB isn't just about running and tackling. It's also about making sure your guys are in the right spot, in the right defense, reading the offense and checking into the right protection for it. It's why Chris Crocker/Reggie Nelson had to do that job when the Bengals had Rey Maualuga. Gotta have that mental game, too.


Yeah, I didn't want to go really much further than what I did, because I agree it was a whole different era then. 250-260lb LBers running downhill and smashing into power RBs. No 265lb TEs running 4.5-4.6s, or read-option offenses.

(03-21-2018, 11:12 AM)Go Cards Wrote: Think most think LB and OL is our biggest needs.

Said it before but will say it again

Edmunds or Wynn in first if dropping to us,

(03-21-2018, 12:32 PM)Sled21 Wrote: I think a lot of people are writing off Jordan Evans a little quickly. He was making strides towards the end of last year. I am eager to see what his sophomore season brings. (I still want Edmunds though)

(03-21-2018, 01:37 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Marvin fancies himself the LB whisperer and likes to take mid to late round players with raw talent. Look for somebody like Matthew Thomas out of FSU or the kid from Central Florida

(03-21-2018, 02:55 PM)Joelist Wrote: We REALLY need to continue the OL restocking in the draft, which means that hopefully we go OL in both the first and second rounds. We need to come out of the draft with C and RT who both are plug and play.

(03-22-2018, 08:12 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Bobby Wagner is one hell of a 4-3 Linebacker.

Pretty cool that Preston Brown also led the league in tackles lately, but Preston isn't near as good in coverage as Bobby.

Still, love the pick up man. We will be much better stopping the run this year barring injuries.

Back to the Draft, liking Rashaan Evans at 21 IF we can get Ragnow or Price at 46 a lot. Just don't know if it is worth the gamble waiting.

Vander Esche in the 2nd sure would be awesome too.