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+--- Thread: IF you were going to rebuild...what would your plan be? (/thread-17967.html)
RE: IF you were going to rebuild...what would your plan be? - THE PISTONS - 11-12-2018
(11-12-2018, 02:57 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Sweet !
Fred he's got to go, period. We could change OC's and DC's 5 times between now and the opening game next season and nothing is truly going to change.
IF they didn't get rid of him after his contract was up last year...they're not doing it now and paying him the remainder of his contract.
We need to face reality: Marvin will coach here until he's ready to retire.
RE: IF you were going to rebuild...what would your plan be? - THE PISTONS - 11-12-2018
(11-12-2018, 04:54 PM)Whatever Wrote: You can make a long list of failed hot coordinator head coaches just from Belichek's coaching tree alone. In fact, a lot of the more successful coordinators turned HC's didn't come from title contenders. Tomlin was a middling DC for the Vikings. Sean Payton was the OC for the Cowboys.
There's a huge difference between being a coordinator on a successful team and being the HC. The coordinators don't know everything that goes into it and oftentimes, a great HC is propping them up, not the other way around.
Yep...because they don't have the Patriots scouting department at their next job.
RE: IF you were going to rebuild...what would your plan be? - Whatever - 11-12-2018
(11-12-2018, 05:06 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Now I am completely confused. Payton and Tomlin are guys you would have rejected (along with other SB champion coaches Doug Pederson, John Harbaugh, and Mike McCarthy), because they are were not "proven winners"?
It would honestly depend on who was available at those times. This upcoming year, Harbaugh is out in Baltimore, McCarthy may be gone in Green Bay, and Pete Carroll may be out in Seattle. If you need a QB and there's 3 former SB winners available in FA, are you signing one of those guys or drafting one?
Furthermore, look at your Super Bowl winning head coaches in the 2000's...
2000-Dick Vermeil/Rams(formally the HC of the Eagles, lost in the SB in 1980)
2001-Brian Billick/Ravens(No prior HC experience)
2002-Bill Belichek/Patriots(1-1 playoff record as HC of the Browns)
2003-Jon Gruden/Buccaneers(former Raiders HC, lost in 2000 AFCCG)
2004-Bill Belichek/Patriots
2005-Bill Belichek/Patriots
2006-Bill Cowher/Steelers(No prior HC experience)
2007-Tony Dungy/Colts(Former TB HC, lost in 1999 NFCCG)
2008-Tom Coughlin/Giants(former Jags HC, lost in 1996+1999 AFCCG)
2009-Mike Tomlin/Steelers(No prior HC experience)
2010-Sean Payton/Saints(No prior HC experience)
2011-Mike McCarthy/Packers(No prior HC experience)
2012-Tom Coughlin/Giants
2013-John Harbaugh/Ravens(No prior HC experience)
2014-Pete Carroll/Seahawks(Former HC of the Jets and Patriots, 1-2 playoff record in NE)
2015-Bill Belichek/Patriots
2016-Gary Kubiak/Broncos(Former Texans HC, 2-2 playoff record)
2017-Bill Belichek/Patriots
2018-Doug Pedersen/Eagles(No prior HC experience)
Head Coaches that have at least one playoff win with a previous club have won 12 of the last 19 Super Bowls. Statistically speaking, you have better odds with a proven winner than trying to find the next big thing.
RE: IF you were going to rebuild...what would your plan be? - THE PISTONS - 11-12-2018
(11-12-2018, 08:35 PM)Whatever Wrote: It would honestly depend on who was available at those times. This upcoming year, Harbaugh is out in Baltimore, McCarthy may be gone in Green Bay, and Pete Carroll may be out in Seattle. If you need a QB and there's 3 former SB winners available in FA, are you signing one of those guys or drafting one?
Furthermore, look at your Super Bowl winning head coaches in the 2000's...
2000-Dick Vermeil/Rams(formally the HC of the Eagles, lost in the SB in 1980)
2001-Brian Billick/Ravens(No prior HC experience)
2002-Bill Belichek/Patriots(1-1 playoff record as HC of the Browns)
2003-Jon Gruden/Buccaneers(former Raiders HC, lost in 2000 AFCCG)
2004-Bill Belichek/Patriots
2005-Bill Belichek/Patriots
2006-Bill Cowher/Steelers(No prior HC experience)
2007-Tony Dungy/Colts(Former TB HC, lost in 1999 NFCCG)
2008-Tom Coughlin/Giants(former Jags HC, lost in 1996+1999 AFCCG)
2009-Mike Tomlin/Steelers(No prior HC experience)
2010-Sean Payton/Saints(No prior HC experience)
2011-Mike McCarthy/Packers(No prior HC experience)
2012-Tom Coughlin/Giants
2013-John Harbaugh/Ravens(No prior HC experience)
2014-Pete Carroll/Seahawks(Former HC of the Jets and Patriots, 1-2 playoff record in NE)
2015-Bill Belichek/Patriots
2016-Gary Kubiak/Broncos(Former Texans HC, 2-2 playoff record)
2017-Bill Belichek/Patriots
2018-Doug Pedersen/Eagles(No prior HC experience)
Head Coaches that have at least one playoff win with a previous club have won 12 of the last 19 Super Bowls. Statistically speaking, you have better odds with a proven winner than trying to find the next big thing.
What you really need to look at is who the QB's on those teams were. Who the GM's are? What the scouting Depts looked like. What their philosophy on building a team was. If the organizations value offensive lineman?
RE: IF you were going to rebuild...what would your plan be? - jj22 - 11-12-2018
Realistically we need more picks since we build through the draft.
Trade Burfict, Ross, Dre (if you can).
It's a bad year to need a QB in the Draft.
We need OT (2) LB (2), CB, WR, TE.
Fire Marvin!
Pass on Hue.
Bring in Harbs…. Jim.
RE: IF you were going to rebuild...what would your plan be? - Whatever - 11-13-2018
(11-12-2018, 09:28 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: What you really need to look at is who the QB's on those teams were. Who the GM's are? What the scouting Depts looked like. What their philosophy on building a team was. If the organizations value offensive lineman?
The starting QB's run the gamut. You have first ballot HoF'ers like Brady, Peyton, Brees, and Rodgers. You have journeyman scrubs like Trent Dilfer, Brad Johnson, and Nick Foles. You have good, but not great QB's that can play at a high level with elite talent around them and/or win when supported by a great defense like Eli, Flacco, and Warner. By the numbers, you have a much better chance of winning with what would be considered an elite QB. That can be a tad misleading, as most would consider Ben Roethlisberger in the elite category, but he hasn't won a SB without an elite defense. He certainly wasn't elite when he won his first ring. Similarly, Peyton Manning was totally washed up and nowhere close to elite when he won his second ring with the Broncos.
Searching the GM's would take a lot of time. I can tell you there's no owner/GM's in there.
Scouting departments are pretty much impossible to determine. They are basically validated by team results, and even that can be misleading. The scouts may do a great job of grading and ranking prospects and the GM reaches on need or panicks and trades the farm when there's a run on QB's.
Team building philosophy also varies. Some teams focused on offense, others on defense, and others struck a balance.
Every team values OL, but the importance varies. The Eagles last year are the first SB winner since the 2010 Saints to have multiple OL make the Pro Bowl.
RE: IF you were going to rebuild...what would your plan be? - THE PISTONS - 11-13-2018
(11-13-2018, 12:08 AM)Whatever Wrote: The starting QB's run the gamut. You have first ballot HoF'ers like Brady, Peyton, Brees, and Rodgers. You have journeyman scrubs like Trent Dilfer, Brad Johnson, and Nick Foles. You have good, but not great QB's that can play at a high level with elite talent around them and/or win when supported by a great defense like Eli, Flacco, and Warner. By the numbers, you have a much better chance of winning with what would be considered an elite QB. That can be a tad misleading, as most would consider Ben Roethlisberger in the elite category, but he hasn't won a SB without an elite defense. He certainly wasn't elite when he won his first ring. Similarly, Peyton Manning was totally washed up and nowhere close to elite when he won his second ring with the Broncos.
Searching the GM's would take a lot of time. I can tell you there's no owner/GM's in there.
Scouting departments are pretty much impossible to determine. They are basically validated by team results, and even that can be misleading. The scouts may do a great job of grading and ranking prospects and the GM reaches on need or panicks and trades the farm when there's a run on QB's.
Team building philosophy also varies. Some teams focused on offense, others on defense, and others struck a balance.
Every team values OL, but the importance varies. The Eagles last year are the first SB winner since the 2010 Saints to have multiple OL make the Pro Bowl.
The journeyman QB's are few and far between and they're generally on teams with insanely good defenses and that was in an era where offenses didn't dominate like today.
Exactly on the Owner/GM point. Those teams generally aren't very good.
Our scouting dept is much smaller than the Steelers/Ravens/Patriots. I can tell you that.
The Bengals don't value offensive line positions outside of Tackle. That's interesting on the Pro Bowl statistic.
RE: IF you were going to rebuild...what would your plan be? - Whatever - 11-13-2018
(11-13-2018, 12:13 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: The journeyman QB's are few and far between and they're generally on teams with insanely good defenses and that was in an era where offenses didn't dominate like today.
Exactly on the Owner/GM point. Those teams generally aren't very good.
Our scouting dept is much smaller than the Steelers/Ravens/Patriots. I can tell you that.
The Bengals don't value offensive line positions outside of Tackle. That's interesting on the Pro Bowl statistic.
Yeah, very few in that category. You could arguably put Kurt Warner in that group. He had those SB seasons in the beginning and end of his career, but he bounced around and got benched for poor play through the middle.
It's no secret we have the smallest scouting department in the league. Having the assistant coaches so involved in the process is a double edged sword. When you have position coaches that are good at evaluating what talent works best for the system, it's great. When your position coaches aren't good at it, the position group can turn into a black hole where you keep throwing draft picks and FA dollars at it, but it doesn't improve. Kind of like our current LB issues.
That's arguably the norm around the NFL. Most teams focus on the T's, as well as having a competent C, which is where we struggled with PA. If you have that top tier QB that either has the mobility to escape the rush or can make fast decisions and get the ball out quick, you don't really need a stacked OL.
RE: IF you were going to rebuild...what would your plan be? - bfine32 - 11-13-2018
I'd redesign the helmets. Last time we did it we went to the Superbowl.
You guys are trying too hard
RE: IF you were going to rebuild...what would your plan be? - Go Cards - 11-13-2018
Hire GM, add scouts, and find new HC not named Hue immediately.
Spend entire allotment of draft picks on the trenches and a LBer that can cover.
Do not think we are as far away as it seems. But when the OL and DL are not getting it done it is tough in this league.
RE: IF you were going to rebuild...what would your plan be? - fredtoast - 11-13-2018
(11-12-2018, 08:35 PM)Whatever Wrote: It would honestly depend on who was available at those times. This upcoming year, Harbaugh is out in Baltimore, McCarthy may be gone in Green Bay, and Pete Carroll may be out in Seattle. If you need a QB and there's 3 former SB winners available in FA, are you signing one of those guys or drafting one?
Furthermore, look at your Super Bowl winning head coaches in the 2000's...
2000-Dick Vermeil/Rams(formally the HC of the Eagles, lost in the SB in 1980)
2001-Brian Billick/Ravens(No prior HC experience)
2002-Bill Belichek/Patriots(1-1 playoff record as HC of the Browns)
2003-Jon Gruden/Buccaneers(former Raiders HC, lost in 2000 AFCCG)
2004-Bill Belichek/Patriots
2005-Bill Belichek/Patriots
2006-Bill Cowher/Steelers(No prior HC experience)
2007-Tony Dungy/Colts(Former TB HC, lost in 1999 NFCCG)
2008-Tom Coughlin/Giants(former Jags HC, lost in 1996+1999 AFCCG)
2009-Mike Tomlin/Steelers(No prior HC experience)
2010-Sean Payton/Saints(No prior HC experience)
2011-Mike McCarthy/Packers(No prior HC experience)
2012-Tom Coughlin/Giants
2013-John Harbaugh/Ravens(No prior HC experience)
2014-Pete Carroll/Seahawks(Former HC of the Jets and Patriots, 1-2 playoff record in NE)
2015-Bill Belichek/Patriots
2016-Gary Kubiak/Broncos(Former Texans HC, 2-2 playoff record)
2017-Bill Belichek/Patriots
2018-Doug Pedersen/Eagles(No prior HC experience)
Head Coaches that have at least one playoff win with a previous club have won 12 of the last 19 Super Bowls. Statistically speaking, you have better odds with a proven winner than trying to find the next big thing.
13 coaches have won the last 19 Super Bowls. 7 of them had previous head coaching experience. Seems to be about half and half to me.
RE: IF you were going to rebuild...what would your plan be? - I_C_DeadPeople - 11-13-2018
Trade in Mikey's Lumina for a convertible; Mikey and Marvin go for a ride over a cliff holding hands like Thelma & Louise.
Take care of business after that
RE: IF you were going to rebuild...what would your plan be? - Whatever - 11-13-2018
(11-13-2018, 12:34 PM)I_C_DeadPeople Wrote: Trade in Mikey's Lumina for a convertible; Mikey and Marvin go for a ride over a cliff holding hands like Thelma & Louise.
Take care of business after that
Implausible. I haven't seen a Lumina that still runs in over a decade. No way Mikey is shelling out the cash to keep that heap running.
RE: IF you were going to rebuild...what would your plan be? - Wyche'sWarrior - 11-13-2018
I would hire Hue Jackson as HC in waiting.
RE: IF you were going to rebuild...what would your plan be? - Whatever - 11-13-2018
(11-13-2018, 12:33 PM)fredtoast Wrote: 13 coaches have won the last 19 Super Bowls. 7 of them had previous head coaching experience. Seems to be about half and half to me.
It seems very odd that you seem reticent to make a QB change based on the fact that Dalton is a proven commodity and drafting one is a crapshoot, but want to argue for taking a gamble on a coordinator with no HC experience over a proven one.
In either case, the only coaches to win multiple SB's in that span both had previous experience. Your odds of winning one SB are better, and your odds of winning multiple SB's is infinitely better. I'm sure if we go back and research it, we'll also find a lot more coordinators being hired and failing than proven HC's being hired and failing.
RE: IF you were going to rebuild...what would your plan be? - Whatever - 11-13-2018
(11-13-2018, 01:14 PM)Wyche Wrote: I would hire Hue Jackson as HC in waiting.
Hue will never get another HC gig unless he's an interim HC for someone that gets canned mid season.
RE: IF you were going to rebuild...what would your plan be? - fredtoast - 11-13-2018
(11-13-2018, 01:25 PM)Whatever Wrote: It seems very odd that you seem reticent to make a QB change based on the fact that Dalton is a proven commodity and drafting one is a crapshoot, but want to argue for taking a gamble on a coordinator with no HC experience over a proven one.
In either case, the only coaches to win multiple SB's in that span both had previous experience. Your odds of winning one SB are better, and your odds of winning multiple SB's is infinitely better. I'm sure if we go back and research it, we'll also find a lot more coordinators being hired and failing than proven HC's being hired and failing.
The problem is that every "proven" head coach has "proven" that he is bad enough to get fired. I'd love to have a former head coach who always won, but those guys are not looking for jobs.
If I were to actually start looking at who is available as a head coach I might come across a former head coach I would favor over a coordinator, but it all depends on why he lost his former job.
I am well aware that just being a good coordinator does not mean a guy will be a good head coach.
RE: IF you were going to rebuild...what would your plan be? - Bengalitis - 11-13-2018
Every season is rebuild, if you mean GRUDEN REBUILD, heck no!!!
RE: IF you were going to rebuild...what would your plan be? - Vas Deferens - 11-13-2018
move the team to london and save everyone the headache.
RE: IF you were going to rebuild...what would your plan be? - ochocincos - 11-13-2018
(11-12-2018, 11:25 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: I'm not totally convinced we need a rebuild, but I'd:
1 ) Hire a young, offensive mind like LaFleur. I'd let him hire his assistants.
2 ) I'd increase our scouting and analytics department. We'd likely need to actually create an analytics department.
3 ) I'd draft a QB early in this years draft and let him sit behind Dalton for a year or 2.
3A ) I'd explore trading Dalton.
4 ) I'd trade AJ Green for draft picks. He's over 30 years old and probably only has 2 years or so left as an elite WR. IF I could get a 1st and 4th for him I'd take it. Maybe to the Patriots? I'd love to see him win a Super Bowl.
5 ) I'd build a strong offensive line. I'd use high draft picks there. We need 2 new Tackles and a Guard.
6 ) I'd build initially around Mixon to take pressure off of the QB.
7 ) On defense, get some LB's that can pass cover. Build an aggressive scheme.
8 ) IF teams would trade for guys like Burfict and Kirkpatrick...I'd do it.
8A ) If I couldn't trade Burfict, I'd waive him. He's hurt a lot. Suspended a lot. And he doesn't look good in games. You can't build a defense around a guy that's always suspended. Time to close the chapter on that book.
9 ) Free agency - I'd use it! Sign a couple young, quality free agents and the rebuild could accelerate.
I liked Matt LaFleur before, so I'd definitely be on board with a young offensive minded HC.
I'd definitely increase scouting department. Enough of requiring the coaches to do more than one job. Scouts need to be scouting during the season too.
I wouldn't consider drafting a QB in the 2019 draft. The class looks kind of weak TBH. But I'd definitely consider in 2020.
I'd consider going all-in for 2019 given the age of Dalton, Green, Atkins, Dunlap, Burfict, Boling. If it doesn't work in 2019, look to rebuild in 2020.
I'd look to bring in one solid player in FA in his prime that would fill a gap. I'd look to also bring in at least a solid role player to fill another immediate hole. That would open up the draft considerably.
I'd look to assemble the trifecta for offensive playmakers - WR1, RB1, and WR2/TE.
I'd be searching for speed on defense. Especially around LB and DE.