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+--- Thread: What exactly was the problem with play calling? (/thread-23957.html)
RE: What exactly was the problem with play calling? - Pat5775 - 05-07-2020
(05-07-2020, 02:06 PM)Sled21 Wrote: He had to put his staff together, which took time, and did not have a season of evaluation to know who he wanted replaced. It's not rocket science Fred. You can resist the argument that a young energetic new coach could make an impression on an old owner and reinvigorate him to want to win, while an old coach who just told Brown year after year that "we have to coach better and play better.... goggle, could not, but it is what it is.
Just ignore Fred. He’s clearly in another one of his moods
RE: What exactly was the problem with play calling? - samhain - 05-07-2020
LOL. A football message board guy thinks he's qualified to question an actual NFL head coach's playcalling. Don't you guys get that this guy is one of only 32 human beings that knows enough about the game to get the job? Squealing and whining about his play calling is like a guy that plays Madden sitting here and acting like he knows how to manage an NFL salary cap.
Like, why are we even having this conversation? Zac's ability to consider real in game scenarios is something so superhuman to you plebeians that you could take a month's worth of limitless pills and never understand why he did what he did and why it was the right decision.
DO YOU HEAR ME???!!! He's a living god!!!! You have no basis for questioning him, you insolent ham-and egger!!! You know literally nothing about football, and Zac is a walking football google database. Get over yourself and deal with the fact that you'll never understand why real football people do what they do in real football situations.
RE: What exactly was the problem with play calling? - fredtoast - 05-07-2020
(05-07-2020, 02:16 PM)Pat5775 Wrote: I’m fairly certain last season was an extension of training camp for Zac Taylor. He wanted to see what he had with Marvin’s players. Well, it obviously wasn’t much. And he did something about it.
John Jerry, John Miller, and B W Webb were not "Marvin guys". Preston Brown was a "Marvin guy" and he got a three year extension last offseason.
(05-07-2020, 02:16 PM)Pat5775 Wrote: The fact of the matter is Zac did more with free agency after one season than Marvin ever did in 16 years.
It had nothing to do with Zac. It was the front office that agreed to open the pocketbook.
(05-07-2020, 02:16 PM)Pat5775 Wrote: The lackadaisical approach with free agency during Marvin’s tenure is a mystery.
Not to anyone who followed the Bengals while Shula, Coslet, and LeBeau were head coaches.
RE: What exactly was the problem with play calling? - fredtoast - 05-07-2020
(05-07-2020, 02:06 PM)Sled21 Wrote: He had to put his staff together, which took time, and did not have a season of evaluation to know who he wanted replaced.
Bengals only played 16 games in 2018. If Taylor could not do a detailed break down of ALL those games in less than two weeks then he will never be any good as an NFL coach.
NFL coaches have to be able to watch film of games and understand what is happening. How is he going to prepare for opponents if he can't break down what is happening on game film?
Like you said, it isn't rocket science.
RE: What exactly was the problem with play calling? - BengalChris - 05-07-2020
(05-07-2020, 08:14 AM)Sled21 Wrote: The final say may go to the front office, since they have to pony up the money, but if you think the HC has no say in who they go after then you're highly mistaken.
Of course the coaches have a say. Webb, Miller, Hart, Jerry, Brown, Gio.
But the budget you get is from the front office, not the coaches. The coaches spend what they are given and we could all see from the Hobspin articles on free agency just how little was authorized in the past. Gotta judge them on how well they used that money and last season was not a good use of it.
You gotta try to get the best value for the budget you are given. In 2019 they overpaid for bargain bin guys. They also overpaid on Gio's extension. Paid him like a starting RB.
This year's crop should be better simply because the front office was willing to cough up the money and they were willing to cut their losses on existing contracts - something new. I do question the coach's talent evaluation based on the first year. The actual results from the 2020 crop should improve things, but they haven't played a down yet to prove that.
RE: What exactly was the problem with play calling? - pally - 05-07-2020
I remember reading at one point that they had to essentially throw out 1/2 the planned playbook because of injuries and not having the players who could execute it. So besides utilising the the whole playboook, I really hope that Zac remembers he has tightends
RE: What exactly was the problem with play calling? - Sled21 - 05-07-2020
(05-07-2020, 03:37 PM)fredtoast Wrote: John Jerry, John Miller, and B W Webb were not "Marvin guys". Preston Brown was a "Marvin guy" and he got a three year extension last offseason.
Yeah, and tell me again who he's playing for this year?????
It had nothing to do with Zac. It was the front office that agreed to open the pocketbook.
Something got them to do it after decades of not doing it. Something was new....hmmmm, wonder what it was, cause it sure wasn't losing, they had already done plenty of that. What could it have been.....
Not to anyone who followed the Bengals while Shula, Coslet, and LeBeau were head coaches.
RE: What exactly was the problem with play calling? - pally - 05-07-2020
(05-07-2020, 03:42 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Bengals only played 16 games in 2018. If Taylor could not do a detailed break down of ALL those games in less than two weeks then he will never be any good as an NFL coach.
NFL coaches have to be able to watch film of games and understand what is happening. How is he going to prepare for opponents if he can't break down what is happening on game film?
Like you said, it isn't rocket science.
Being able to breakdown a players performance on film does not mean they know how well or if players can learn new plays. Chad Johnson was a great receiver for the Bengals and failed miserably with the Patriots in part because he couldn't learn the playbook. Film can't tell you how much work the players do in the film room, in meetings, in practice. Film doesn't tell you how a player deals with an injury. Film doesn't tell you about a player's attitude off the field.
Film breakdown is only a very small part in evaluating a player. Just look at the players he picked in the draft this year. Lat year due to the lateness of the coaching staff coming together, they missed out on the time needed to fully evaluate the 2018 roster prior to free agency and the draft. When you are trying to fill holes in training camp you are going to end up with a bunch of bad players
RE: What exactly was the problem with play calling? - Nately120 - 05-07-2020
(05-07-2020, 01:10 AM)Pat5775 Wrote: At least Zac allowed personnel changes throughout the season and was aggressive in free agency. Marvin was all to content to let “his guys” stick around and figured they just “needed to play better”
How many of Marvin's guys were sticking around when we made the playoffs 5 years in a row?
RE: What exactly was the problem with play calling? - GreenCornBengal - 05-07-2020
I'm not going to crown anything Zac has done as a success until we can see how things work out this season. On paper it looks like there will be major improvements and the team is heading the right direction. However, just like I've been told in numerous threads since the draft, we won't know anything until the games are actually played.
Claiming Zac is greater than Marvin at this point is very premature.
RE: What exactly was the problem with play calling? - GreenCornBengal - 05-07-2020
(05-07-2020, 03:42 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Bengals only played 16 games in 2018. If Taylor could not do a detailed break down of ALL those games in less than two weeks then he will never be any good as an NFL coach.
NFL coaches have to be able to watch film of games and understand what is happening. How is he going to prepare for opponents if he can't break down what is happening on game film?
Like you said, it isn't rocket science.
You always claim that PFF is a joke and that they cannot discern what is actually happening from just watching film. How is that any different from a new coach? Was he able to talk to the previous coordinators or Marvin about what was actually expected on each play?
If coaches could figure out everything from film alone, wouldn't the crapshoot that is the draft be much less of a gamble? Any good NFL Coach should be able to watch some film and know who is good and who isn't right?
RE: What exactly was the problem with play calling? - fredtoast - 05-07-2020
(05-07-2020, 04:45 PM)pally Wrote: Being able to breakdown a players performance on film does not mean they know how well or if players can learn new plays. Chad Johnson was a great receiver for the Bengals and failed miserably with the Patriots in part because he couldn't learn the playbook. Film can't tell you how much work the players do in the film room, in meetings, in practice. Film doesn't tell you how a player deals with an injury. Film doesn't tell you about a player's attitude off the field.
Okay then. In addition to a couple of weeks of breaking down film he needed a couple of hours to talk to Darrin Simmons.
Still no excuse for not having a clue what was going on with his team last off season.
RE: What exactly was the problem with play calling? - pally - 05-07-2020
(05-07-2020, 05:47 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Okay then. In addition to a couple of weeks of breaking down film he needed a couple of hours to talk to Darrin Simmons.
Still no excuse for not having a clue what was going on with his team last off season.
Judging from his off season moves, he had a pretty damn good idea what was going on with the team. Knowing and being able to immediately change things are not mutually exclusive
RE: What exactly was the problem with play calling? - fredtoast - 05-07-2020
(05-07-2020, 05:34 PM)GreenCornBengal Wrote: You always claim that PFF is a joke and that they cannot discern what is actually happening from just watching film. How is that any different from a new coach?
My problem with PFF is not so much that they don't know what everyone's exact assignment is on a play (although that is part of it). My main problem is that the people doing the grading are too subjective. two guys both do their job on a play but the guy the grader likes will get a "1" while the other guy gets a zero.
Also PFF graders are amateurs. If it was all graded by NFL coaches I'd have a little more faith in their grades. For example PFF said Josh Jones was both the best run blocking and the best pass blocking O-lineman in the draft. Based on this a lot of people were wanting us to take him at #33, but scouts for all 32 NFL teams disagreed with PFF and he lasted until the third round. In these cases I trust the NFL scouts a lot more than PFF graders.
RE: What exactly was the problem with play calling? - fredtoast - 05-07-2020
(05-07-2020, 05:51 PM)pally Wrote: Judging from his off season moves, he had a pretty damn good idea what was going on with the tea. Knowing and being able to immediately change things are not mutually exclusive
How do you explain the three year extension given to Preston Brown?
RE: What exactly was the problem with play calling? - fredtoast - 05-07-2020
(05-07-2020, 10:35 AM)Sled21 Wrote: Something got them to do it after decades of not doing it. Something was new....hmmmm, wonder what it was, cause it sure wasn't losing, they had already done plenty of that. What could it have been.....
I don't know. You tell me.
Al Golden?
Steve Jackson?
Troy Walters?
Colt Anderson?
Those are the only new guys that I know of. Which one do you think it was?
RE: What exactly was the problem with play calling? - pally - 05-07-2020
(05-07-2020, 05:56 PM)fredtoast Wrote: How do you explain the three year extension given to Preston Brown?
Zac was hired Feb 4, the combine, where the coaching team first got together was a month later, Brown was extended Mar 12. I would say that was most likely a front office driven choice coupled with film from 2018 that was impacted by the fact he played on a badly sprained ankle and the injured knee. When they realized it was a mistake they cut bait and moved on. Name the last time a veteran starting player was cut midseason
RE: What exactly was the problem with play calling? - fredtoast - 05-07-2020
(05-07-2020, 06:09 PM)pally Wrote: Name the last time a veteran starting player was cut midseason
As far as I know the Bengals have never screwed up a new contract deal so badly that they had to cut the guy before he even made it through one season.
What is your point?
RE: What exactly was the problem with play calling? - fredtoast - 05-07-2020
(05-07-2020, 06:09 PM)pally Wrote: Zac was hired Feb 4, the combine, where the coaching team first got together was a month later,
Wait, WTF???
Zac sat around on his ass for a whole month before even meeting with his coaches? THEY DID NOT EVEN GET TOGETHER BEFPORE THE COMBINE???
Jesus, no wonder we sucked so bad this year. If this is true then he is a much worse head coach then I ever imagined.
RE: What exactly was the problem with play calling? - ochocincos - 05-07-2020
(05-06-2020, 04:34 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I know we all ahd problems with the short yardage shotgun calls, and a lot of people complain about not throwing to the TEs against Arizona. But that is all just a very small percentage of the offensive play calls.
What specifically do you all want to see changed. And not just calling "better" plays. I want to know specifically what will make you think play calling is getting better.
I can't speak to specific plays that were called or what should have been called since I stopped watching games after Week 5, but the Bengals were 30th in Red Zone TD percentage (43%).
They need to vastly improve their red zone offense.