(02-21-2021, 02:45 AM)Murdock2420 Wrote: Look around the free agency piles out there right now.

What is easier to find, a starting #3 WR that can outproduce Tate or a starting Tackle that can keep Burrow safe? 

Answer... plenty of high quality options at WR and zero real options at tackle.

Draft O-line, go get a #3 in free agency or later in the draft.

There is no excuse to use the first round on a skill position when your QB is constantly under siege and coming off rehab.

As to the pressures allowed. I would be willing to take a bet that Sewell will give up less sacks next season then Bobby Hart no matter what teams they are on. 

(02-21-2021, 07:15 AM)Trademark Wrote: TJ was a good player but I don't care what he says. The trio of Chase, Boyd and Higgins would make the offense exciting.

(02-21-2021, 10:57 AM)Essex Johnson Wrote: I don;t think he does not believe that would be a thrill adding Chase but  he is looking at it from the unbiased WR eyes and the  big picture of what will make the offensive more effective and exciting at same time and he as others also do is fix the line and lets see what Burrow can do...

(02-21-2021, 04:15 AM)Whatever Wrote: There's plenty of starter quality T's set to be FA's in 2021 and not a lot of teams that will be able to pay market value for them.  Trent Williams, Russell Okung, Alejandro Villeneuva, Ricky Wagner, Daryl Williams, Taylor Moton, etc.  

Problem is, Hart was our second best OL last year.  Our IOL was a total disaster.  The focus should be fixing the IOL.  We need to sign at least 2 quality starters on the IOL.  It boggles my mind when people are saying OT only at 5, but I'm cool if they bring Quentin Spain's scrub ass back.  Is it about protecting Burrow, or is it just John Ross PTSD, because when people say we may only need 1 G if we resign Spain, it seems like the latter.

Even then, if you are just absolutely dead set on replacing Hart, you're ideally better of getting your T in FA and your WR in the draft.  First, T's are still a little cheaper than an equivalent WR.  Second, T's are now routinely playing at a high level into their mid 30's, while WR's start hitting the wall at age 29.  T's are safer bets to give big FA contracts to because of that longevity.  Third, in today's NFL, the learning curve is a lot bigger for a T vs a WR.  It's a lot easier for a WR to come in and hit the ground running and play at a high level vs an OT.  Vet T/rookie WR is cheaper and has a high probability of outproducing rookie T/vet WR.

I made these points in another thread, but I'll repeat them here.  No OL can block forever and the defense can always decide to blitz more guys than you can block if it doesn't respect your skill players.  How many hits and sacks did Burrow take last year trying to buy time because nobody was open?  A bunch.  Getting him skill guys that can get open and back the defense out of blitzing so much also helps protect Joe Burrow.  He is holding the ball too long because his receivers aren't getting open.  21.5% of his passes were to targets with a defender within a yard of them.  15% is about average and nobody won a playoff game with an average over 14.8%.

I can only put the facts out there.  If you think Sewell will give up less sacks than Hart, it's your opinion, but it's statistically improbable.  

(02-21-2021, 02:58 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: If we take Pitts or Chase at 5 and haven't made major upgrades to the line, we will pick top 10 in 2022 again. 

(02-21-2021, 03:55 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: But we can easily make some upgrades to the OL in FA. You’re focusing solely on OT, but G was an even bigger issue for us. And we’re being linked to one of the top two FA’s (Thuney) at that position by multiple sources. Hell, even bringing back a guy like Zeitler (if the Giants cut him to save 12m in Cap) would be a major improvement. It just can’t be stressed enough how much we’ve missed Boling the last couple years. Our guards have been TRASH. And as mediocre as Hart is, he’s way better than any G we have on the roster.

Address the IOL in FA, then we can go BPA at 5 (likely Chase or Pitts) if Sewell isn’t there. And then see what OT’s fall to the 2nd (Leatherwood, Eichenberg, etc) to start planning for moving on from Hart.

(02-21-2021, 02:58 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: Trent Williams - Sat out a year due to cancer. Did look good this season but wanted out of Washington due to losing and bad culture. So, scratch Cincinnati off the list.

Russell Okung - Was good... now. Injury prone.  Played just 13 games in the last two years.
 
Alejandro Villeneuva - Going to be 33, but should be a good fill in for a few seasons.

Ricky Wagner - Was a back-up in Green Bay not the starter. So... XSF type of signing?

Daryl Williams - This would be a legit Tackle upgrade. Also most likely to re-sign with Buffalo.

Taylor Moton - Being Tagged

So on the list, you have 1 real legit plug and play tackle that is most likely going to stay with Buffalo and if he hits the market has to choose Cincy over the other say 15 teams that would make an offer.

You act like suddenly Cincinnati is a hot destination to be for FA. 

Mike Brown and Zac Taylor are hated on this board and we all think they are in over their heads. So, short of out-bidding teams what is the draw for a top tier FA to come here??? 


And don't forget the Super Bowl when you talk about weapons matter....

Tyreek Hill is explosive. (More so then any player in the draft or on this team)
Kelce is a match-up nightmare 
And Mahomes is amazing.
Yet....

Their line was banged up and it showed that all the "open skill guys" meant exactly dick. A DB can cover tight for 4 or 5 seconds when they know their D-line can bull rush and be at the QB. 

You don't build a team backwards. Winning teams build quality O-lines and then draft new skill guys and let old ones walk. 
Look at Pitt... they churn through #1 WRs like it is nothing and still compete... why? O-line and D-line.
Green Bay... great QB, 1 real WR target... and bad ass O-line.
Cleveland lost OBJ, but the line was super stout... playoffs.
Baltimore... again.. bad ass O-line, and  a great running game. They have 1 WR that you can name.

Do you see a trend?

Want to win or want to be the 90 Bengals or the late year Al Davis Raiders, you know wasting pick after pick on skill guys when the team is broken.

Did you see the Lions... all the years of wasting 1st rounders on WR's, some great, some bust, but what did it win them? Nothing.

The O-line and D-line are all the matter once you have your QB.

If we take Pitts or Chase at 5 and haven't made major upgrades to the line, we will pick top 10 in 2022 again. 

(02-21-2021, 02:14 PM)Whatever Wrote: TJ literally said in his statement that the Bengals shouldn't sign or draft any skill players...when we have 3 WR's under contract for next year.  I like TJ, but an ignorant take is an ignorant take.

(02-21-2021, 05:01 PM)Whatever Wrote: So, your argument basically boils down to FA's don't want to come here so we can't sign a good FA T, but we can sign a good FA WR.  Of course, we signed some good FA's last off-season because the money was right and most of the league is screwed for cap space next year and there will be more guys cut in the coming months for cap space.  And seriously, you think any FA out there cares what anybody on this board thinks about Mike Brown or Zac Taylor?

What am I supposed to be taking away from the SB this year?  A team that had an OL riddled with injuries that was pretty mediocre to begin went 14-2, claimed the #1 seed in the AFC, won two playoff games and the AFC championship, but lost in the SB to a stacked team with the GOAT QB, 3 former All Pro WR's, a former All Pro TE, and a great pass rush.  If we're looking at SB rosters, you realize Tyler Boyd is a #3 at best for either team, right?  But we don't need WR help.  Care to hazard a guess as to how many former All Pro OL played in the SB this year?  Do you see how ridiculous that argument is?  A team stacked at the skill positions that was forced to start 3 backup OL lost the Super Bowl...the damn Super Bowl.

The Browns have a great OL, sure.  They also have a lot of good skill players.  Chubb is a monster.  Hunt is a beast.  They have 2 good TE's in Hooper and Njoku.  They have Landry and OBJ at WR.  They overcame not only because of their OL, but because they have plenty of other good weapons.

The Steelers can cycle through WR's because the Steelers literally draft a WR in the first three rounds almost every year, so they don't wind up in a situation where they have to FT a 30 something WR who hasn't played in a year and a half out of desperation.

Here's the % of throws to targets with a defender within 1 yard of them for the primary QB's for this year's playoff teams.


Trubisky 21.2%
Tannehill 18.7%
Haskins 17.4%
Roethlisberger 17.3%
Rivers 15.8%
Brady 14.8%
Jackson 14.4%
Mayfield 13.8%
Allen 13.1%
Goff 12.7%
Brees 12.3%
Mahomes 11.4%
Rodgers 11.2%
Wilson 11.1%

Burrow 21.5%

Only one team with a QB over 20% made the playoffs.  The highest % to actually win a playoff game was Brady at 14.8%.  You cannot win in this league trying to force throws to covered receivers over and over again.  


Again, nobody is saying we don't need to improve the OL.  However, this do next to nothing to address our skill positions philosophy is folly.  

(02-21-2021, 05:01 PM)Whatever Wrote: So, your argument basically boils down to FA's don't want to come here so we can't sign a good FA T, but we can sign a good FA WR.  Of course, we signed some good FA's last off-season because the money was right and most of the league is screwed for cap space next year and there will be more guys cut in the coming months for cap space.  And seriously, you think any FA out there cares what anybody on this board thinks about Mike Brown or Zac Taylor?

What am I supposed to be taking away from the SB this year?  A team that had an OL riddled with injuries that was pretty mediocre to begin went 14-2, claimed the #1 seed in the AFC, won two playoff games and the AFC championship, but lost in the SB to a stacked team with the GOAT QB, 3 former All Pro WR's, a former All Pro TE, and a great pass rush.  If we're looking at SB rosters, you realize Tyler Boyd is a #3 at best for either team, right?  But we don't need WR help.  Care to hazard a guess as to how many former All Pro OL played in the SB this year?  Do you see how ridiculous that argument is?  A team stacked at the skill positions that was forced to start 3 backup OL lost the Super Bowl...the damn Super Bowl.

The Browns have a great OL, sure.  They also have a lot of good skill players.  Chubb is a monster.  Hunt is a beast.  They have 2 good TE's in Hooper and Njoku.  They have Landry and OBJ at WR.  They overcame not only because of their OL, but because they have plenty of other good weapons.

The Steelers can cycle through WR's because the Steelers literally draft a WR in the first three rounds almost every year, so they don't wind up in a situation where they have to FT a 30 something WR who hasn't played in a year and a half out of desperation.

Here's the % of throws to targets with a defender within 1 yard of them for the primary QB's for this year's playoff teams.


Trubisky 21.2%
Tannehill 18.7%
Haskins 17.4%
Roethlisberger 17.3%
Rivers 15.8%
Brady 14.8%
Jackson 14.4%
Mayfield 13.8%
Allen 13.1%
Goff 12.7%
Brees 12.3%
Mahomes 11.4%
Rodgers 11.2%
Wilson 11.1%

Burrow 21.5%

Only one team with a QB over 20% made the playoffs.  The highest % to actually win a playoff game was Brady at 14.8%.  You cannot win in this league trying to force throws to covered receivers over and over again.  


Again, nobody is saying we don't need to improve the OL.  However, this do next to nothing to address our skill positions philosophy is folly.  

(02-21-2021, 03:55 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: But we can easily make some upgrades to the OL in FA. You’re focusing solely on OT, but G was an even bigger issue for us. And we’re being linked to one of the top two FA’s (Thuney) at that position by multiple sources. Hell, even bringing back a guy like Zeitler (if the Giants cut him to save 12m in Cap) would be a major improvement. It just can’t be stressed enough how much we’ve missed Boling the last couple years. Our guards have been TRASH. And as mediocre as Hart is, he’s way better than any G we have on the roster.

Address the IOL in FA, then we can go BPA at 5 (likely Chase or Pitts) if Sewell isn’t there. And then see what OT’s fall to the 2nd (Leatherwood, Eichenberg, etc) to start planning for moving on from Hart.

(02-21-2021, 04:48 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: just disagree ... we need to address line in FA and in 1st round (especially if we have a rental FA for 2-3 yrs)... and we can also easily pick up a quality WR in FA... and still acquire a excellent tackle/guard in Slater at #5 the BPA on the line after Sewell in most mocks or even trade back still get an excellent tackle/guard get more value out of the draft picking up a extra high round WR/Dline/TE take your pick.....

(02-21-2021, 05:57 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: The entire line needs an overhaul, not just tackle, but tackles usually go first and then guards second in the draft.

Right now what do we have? Jonah is unproven and been injured both years. LG - ? C - Hopkins if healed otherwise Price, RG - Spain/XSF (not great), RT - Bobby Hart.

Why am I so fixated on drafted the O-line? Because we could actually use an upgrade all 5 spots. No one from last year should be looked at as a starter right now. Sign Thuney, sign Williams, and still draft Sewell or Darrisaw or Slater. Now you have 3 good starters.

I'm stunned on this coming from you, as you were champion of the we must draft Burrow parade and when he went down, you were all no reason to watch anymore and tank for Sewell.

Now you are less concerned with his health and wanting Pitts or Chase?I don't want to see the kid cared off again, and we need 3 to 4 new guys to make sure it doesn't happen again.

(02-21-2021, 08:51 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: I still want Sewell as my first choice if he’s there. I just don’t want to reach out of desperation if he’s not. And I’m surprised you’re not sold on Jonah yet (I personally am). It’s doubtful any rookie is going to be much better than he was right off the bat. Cleveland just won a playoff game with a LT who Jonah was arguably better than. Now we might get lucky and end up with an absolute stud like Whirfs, but most guys are not that good that soon.

If you truly want the absolute best (and most proven) protection for Burrow RIGHT NOW it needs to come in FA. And yes I’d still take Sewell even if we bring in a OT.

(02-21-2021, 09:08 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: On that we are completely agreed then. Sign Thuney and a Tackle and then draft Sewell, that would be a huge step towards this team being better up front.

Then we just need to learn to run the ball from time to time to help the young tackle adjust.

As for Jonah, when he is on the field, he has shown the ability to be a good tackle, my concern on him is just the amount of time he as already missed. Need him to be available and healthy on on the field.

(02-21-2021, 05:52 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: Cool... great. Let's waste the pick... you sold me... let's get Chase or Pitts and see how awesome they look with Finley under center when Burrow is on IR again.

Maybe if we shred both his knees people will stop worrying about weapons and start worrying about protecting the kid.

Oh... the guy who led the league in receiving yards this year... 5th rounder. But, yeah we should waste another year and another pick not protecting Burrow.

The guy 2nd in yards... a 3rd round TE...

The top 10 in yards receiving this year... only 3 were first rounders. Couple 2nd rounder, a 3rd and a few 5ths.

Also, I don't think a FA cares about the board... jesus.. that wasn't the point... I'll stop assuming you can follow and spell it out. If everyone here knows that Taylor sucks and the Ownership sucks, and all the sports talk shows around the country say the same thing... that means that the players and agents know it too. And while some guys will go after the money, most players would prefer to win then collect a paycheck. Or, they will sign, get paid and then "be injured" like a tackle we had not too long ago. Last season people signed on thinking #1 pick and young coach would move forward, now I think it is safe to say the league has seen enough to know Taylor isn't going to turn it around like everyone here says. Do you think players live in a bubble and don't read about teams that are trying to sign them?

(02-21-2021, 10:28 PM)Whatever Wrote: I think the point about FA is that you can't logically argue that you can't good a good FA T because FA's don't want to come here, but you can get a good FA WR.  That makes zero sense because if FA's  don't want to come here, why can you get a good FA WR, but not a good FA T?  

(02-21-2021, 09:22 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Agreed all around. Getting the run game going is imperative. We’re going to be paying Mixon too much money next season to not get high end production out of him. And we can’t put it all on Burrow again. Especially coming off an injury.

And yeah, Jonah’s injury history is starting to become a concern, but like I said previously, I’m not ready to freak out just yet. The one he had his first season wasn’t even on the field. I’m chalking that up to a fluke. That said, if he misses significant time again this season we might have a problem...

(02-22-2021, 12:01 AM)Murdock2420 Wrote: This is simple to answer.

There are only so many jobs available at the NFL level.

After the first wave of free agency is over, the second wave happens. Have you not noticed that historically speaking the Bengals are not involved in the first wave of FA? Is that Mike Brown's choice being cheap or is it players not wanting to be here or a combination of the two?

Now... why can you get a good FA WR and not a good FA tackle, the answer to that is simply the volume of player available at the position group. There isn't 32 good RT in the NFL right now, nor is there 32 good LT's. So, after the 1 or 2 good replacements available is signed, there is not much left to be had.

At the WR group, there is always guys available after wave one. Guys who thought they should get more, or guys that just weren't right up there with the top few guys but still really good WR's. These guys want a job, and therefore will sign a 1 year deal to try and earn the next contract, it literally happens every single year. Guys wait, and then start signing because they realize they aren't getting the big pay day they wanted. 

So, again. It is much easier to get a good starting WR in FA then a good player on the O-line. Has been for years.

Quick glance at WR FA list:

Allen Robinson
Corey Davis
Marvin Jones
Nelson Agholor
Will Fuller
Curtis Samuel
Chris Goodwin
The Tic-toc star
T.Y. Hilton
Tim Patrick
Kendrick Bourne
Keelan Cole
Zach Pascal
Josh Reynolds
Damiere Byrd
Danny Ameondola

All of them had over 600 yards receiving last year.

Then you have:
A.J.
Antonio Brown
Sammy Watkins
Larry Fitzgerald
Kenny Gollday
Deshaun Jackson 

All who had years with injury or limited production but have a history of success.


Compare that to the 3 or 4 names on the tackle FA list from earlier and it should be very obvious that there will be names at WR that will be looking for work after wave one is over. 



Also, the draft pick is wasted if it doesn't increase the win total in the upcoming season. Again... Pitts and Chase aren't going to useful when Burrow is injured and being sacked over and over again.