(04-12-2024, 07:32 PM)depthchart Wrote: What about TEE for their 1st round pick #20 and that is the deal ?   That may be about all that the Bengals could squeeze out of them.

That is near the Top end of what people have been expecting, since it seems like TEE has been valued at a late 1st or early 2nd round pick.
 
The Bengals would have picks #18 & 20 in round 1 plus TEE’s Tag Money to use.
 
The NFL World would get to watch either the Steelers sticking it to the Bengals again -or- maybe the Bengals stick it to them this time.
 
NFL Media types would probably adore the Steelers for making the Deal & then it would be up to the Bengals to ultimately come out on Top.
 
Fear of looking bad on a Deal like this may keep both GM’s from actually do it within the Division.

(04-12-2024, 09:08 PM)jj22 Wrote: They don’t need the Bengals approval. They just have to sign him to a contract and be willing to give up two first round picks. Unless the tag rules changed which they could have for all I know. I thought teams started negotiating trades to avoid giving up the firsts.

It would take two firsts if the Steelers want him. If the rules changed this would be a case to hold true to the traditional price.

(04-12-2024, 09:48 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: I don't agree with top-20, but even then sorry to break it to you but there's not 32 true #1 WRs in the NFL. Just like there's not 32 starting caliber QBs in the NFL. That doesn't change just because there's 32 teams. 

Chase was hurt for the first time in 5 years in 2022 after playing 17 games in 2021 and played 16 games in 2023. Higgins hasn't made more than 14 starts in a season and he's been in the NFL 4 years. 

Ja'Marr Chase snap count % in his career...
85.44%
71.64%
81.80%
Average: 79.63%

Tee Higgins snap count % in his career...
74.81%
64.60%
68.38%
52.67%
Average: 65.11%

So I will start worrying about Chase too when he starts playing ~15% less snaps per year than he currently is and becomes a guy who plays less than 2/3rd of the snaps in his career like Tee.

We are already starting to talk about Burrow, but he's a QB (and when healthy a top-5 QB) and has already been paid before last year so we're already committed regardless if Burrow is injury prone or not. That doesn't mean we have to then follow that up with giving Tee money knowing he will get hurt because he always gets hurt and we don't even have top-5 upside if he does stay healthy. He's ultimately our #2 WR, that's a high risk relatively-low return bet.

(04-12-2024, 09:48 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: I don't agree with top-20, but even then sorry to break it to you but there's not 32 true #1 WRs in the NFL. Just like there's not 32 starting caliber QBs in the NFL. That doesn't change just because there's 32 teams. 

Chase was hurt for the first time in 5 years in 2022 after playing 17 games in 2021 and played 16 games in 2023. Higgins hasn't made more than 14 starts in a season and he's been in the NFL 4 years. 

Ja'Marr Chase snap count % in his career...
85.44%
71.64%
81.80%
Average: 79.63%

Tee Higgins snap count % in his career...
74.81%
64.60%
68.38%
52.67%
Average: 65.11%

So I will start worrying about Chase too when he starts playing ~15% less snaps per year than he currently is and becomes a guy who plays less than 2/3rd of the snaps in his career like Tee.

We are already starting to talk about Burrow, but he's a QB (and when healthy a top-5 QB) and has already been paid before last year so we're already committed regardless if Burrow is injury prone or not. That doesn't mean we have to then follow that up with giving Tee money knowing he will get hurt because he always gets hurt and we don't even have top-5 upside if he does stay healthy. He's ultimately our #2 WR, that's a high risk relatively-low return bet.


- - - - - -

I get it that Tee is pretty good and he wears a Bengals uniform (for now) so that means we collectively have to overinflate how good he is, I will just put this here. Try to think of Tee if he were on a different team and wasn't dyeing your eyes an orange tint when you look at him...

Through 4 years...
Tee Higgins: 58 games, 3,684 yards / 24 TDs
Juju Smith-Schuster: 58 games, 3,726 yards / 26 TDs

Because of how the rules are, there's really good WRs coming into the NFL every single year now. There's good WRs and then there's true difference makers, and there's very few TRUE difference makers and Tee isn't one of them. He's just very good (when healthy). That's not bad by any means, but it's also not irreplaceable and a luxury as a #2 WR that we need to make do without with the highest paid QB in the NFL and a WR who is much better than him already on the team who will need paid.

(04-12-2024, 10:06 PM)Bengalbug Wrote: So are you looking at starts (Higgins) or games played (Chase).

Honestly this conversation and topic is exhausting.  Moving goalposts, etc.

No one can seriously think that we have a better chance of winning in 2024 by getting rid of Tee Higgins, not for draft picks anyway.   The bengals should do everything possible to put themselves in a position to win NOW, but also set themselves up For the future.  Tagging and keeping Tee gives them the best chance to win in 24, cap flexibility in 25, and a comp pick in 26.  Trading tee, at this point in the offseason, makes it harder to win in 24, with burrow still on his rookie deal.

(04-12-2024, 05:23 PM)FormerlyBengalRugby Wrote: Using his most recent stats is cherry picking"

Interesting take.



I think the question is why all the love for a receiver who is not producing or staying healthy, but can be traded to help the team via picks and freeing up 21M in cap space?

(04-12-2024, 10:09 PM)Bengalbug Wrote: Ffs I can do this too, Michael Pittman jr, Brandon Ayuik, aj brown.

Calvin Ridley just got paid bank, tee is better than him.  

No one is over inflating tee Higgins on this board, he is what he is… top 20 WR.

I have to sign off, this is becoming narcissistic.

(04-12-2024, 10:16 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: They're the same number for Chase replace games with starts for Chase then and the exact same thing is true. So that's you just looking for a real fine thread to try to pick apart because the goal posts aren't moving at all. They're the exact same they have always been. Chase plays a lot, Tee does not. Tee is hurt every year, Tee misses a ton of snaps every year. Chase is a proven #1 WR and difference maker 2nd Team All-Pro, Tee is our #2 WR who MAY be able to be a #1 WR somewhere and isn't a true difference maker. They are not even slightly in the same situation.

I think an unhappy Tee playing to not get hurt does very little to help the Bengals win in 2024. Just like Bates didn't help in 2022 and AJ Green didn't help in 2020. I think we get that exact same cap flexibility in 2025 regardless of if he's here or not, and a 2026 comp pick is absolutely worthless in 2024 (and 2025 for that matter, and likely every year after).

We have to get a new WR this year or next year regardless and I would prefer to have an extra draft pick this year to make that happen so we have a guy young and hungry and fully bought in who wants to be here and isn't thinking about his 2025 free agency, and then use that freed up $22m to improve the team further for now.

Connor Williams + either Tyler Boyd or Stephon Gilmore on a 1 year deal + 2nd round WR in 2024 absolutely gives us a better chance at winning in 2024 than Tee Higgins for $22m who doesn't want to be here playing under the tag.

(04-12-2024, 10:25 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Calvin Ridley is a 2nd Team All-Pro WR.
Brandon Aiyuk is a 2nd Team All-Pro WR.
AJ Brown is a 2nd Team All-Pro WR.

Michael Pittman Jr is the only one I could say Tee would be possibly better than of those 4, and even then Pittman just had a career year and Tee had the worst year of his career. So not momentum isn't on his side.

You're actively overinflating him right now, because he's a Bengal. The the real narcissistic nonsense when you have to start resorting to insults after resorting to picking an issue over word semantics. Dude is our WR2 and has played less than 2/3rd of the offensive snaps in his 4 year career. There's a lot of WRs who are very comparable to him out there who don't get the benefit of Joe Burrow throwing them the ball. If another team wants to pay him to be a low end WR1, let them and reinvest those resources. We don't need to pay him the same amount to be our high end WR2 that isn't happy being here.

(04-12-2024, 10:25 PM)bfine32 Wrote: What are your thoughts on Joe Burrow?

(04-12-2024, 10:37 PM)Bengalbug Wrote: Goal posts moving, yet again.  When comping JUJU to tee you based it on catches, yards and tds over a certain time period.  I did the same, but then you mention all-pros.  

Calvin Ridley was 2nd team in 2020…
Aiyuk and we this year, but cumulative since 2020, him and tee are close (based on how you comped juju and tee, but maybe that doesn’t work here? Let me know).
AJ brown and tee Higgins first 3 years are about as close as you can get. Anything related to last year and tee Higgins/burrow needs to be taken with a grain of salt.  

You give Ridley props for 2nd team all pro, 4 years ago.  But dismiss tee Higgins back to back 1k yard seasons due to horrible luck all around.

Lastly? Juju is overinflated with one outlier year.  He has only one year with 1000+ yards,  juju is Tyler Boyd.

Quote:Ffs I can do this too, Michael Pittman jr, Brandon Ayuik, aj brown.


Calvin Ridley just got paid bank, tee is better than him. 

(04-12-2024, 05:11 PM)schroomytunes Wrote: No way do you trade him to a division rival, if they sign him as a FA fine, but you dont want to shoot yourself in the foot when divisional games are already smash mouth football games. The team we should be contacting is the Arizona Cardinals. There WR core is pretty weak and I would love to get that 2nd rd pick from them:

bengals trade: Tee Higgins

Cardinals trade # 35 (2) and swap 3rd rounders 71 for 97. that gives us picks (71 and 80) and they still have 3 also.

- agreed we could bring back boyd on a 1 year deal, and draft an outside burner to replace Higgins.

(04-12-2024, 10:06 PM)Bengalbug Wrote: So are you looking at starts (Higgins) or games played (Chase).

Honestly this conversation and topic is exhausting. Moving goalposts, etc.

No one can seriously think that we have a better chance of winning in 2024 by getting rid of Tee Higgins, not for draft picks anyway. The bengals should do everything possible to put themselves in a position to win NOW, but also set themselves up For the future. Tagging and keeping Tee gives them the best chance to win in 24, cap flexibility in 25, and a comp pick in 26. Trading tee, at this point in the offseason, makes it harder to win in 24, with burrow still on his rookie deal.

(04-12-2024, 11:27 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: I've been mentioning the lack of Tee Higgins accolades this entire time. Literally still the exact same location for the goalposts.

You actually didn't do the same. You said...


You didn't use All-Pros OR stats. You just said some random shit and complained about goalposts despite me being very consistent in the fact that you're overvaluing Tee.

I never dismissed Tee's 1k seasons, he is a very good WR, I said as much. I just don't think he's a true difference maker or reliably healthy. I also don't agree with this top-20 myth you keep pushing. Here, I will just take a page out of your book and also just make a list of names and make proclamations. Right now he would be behind (roughly by draft year, no other order)....

Puka Nacua
Chris Olave
Garrett Wilson
George Pickens
Ja'Marr Chase
Amon Ra St Brown
Jaylen Waddle
Devonta Smith
Nico Collins (if he repeats his 2023 breakout)
Justin Jefferson
CeeDee Lamb
Brandon Aiyuk
AJ Brown
DK Metcalf
Terry McLauren
DJ Moore
Cooper Kupp
Chris Godwin
Tyreek Hill
Stefon Diggs
Amari Cooper
Tyler Lockett
Mike Evans
Devante Adams
Keenan Allen

Then Tee is in a little muddle with DeAndre Hopkins, Michael Pittman Jr, Rashee Rice and Jordan Addison.

That puts Tee in the 25 (if you don't believe in Nico Collins' breakout and put him at the very front of the muddle) and potentially 31st at the bottom of that muddle. That's not counting the probably 2-4 guys in the 2024 draft class who seemingly like clockwork are going to come out of the gates great.

Tee could indeed be a WR1 for someone, but I don't think he'd be more than a bottom tier WR1. He is a top-30 WR. Investing heavily in a potential bottom tier WR1 (with durability concerns) to be your WR2 just doesn't make sense when trying to build a team. I notice you never even tried to touch the reality that Connor Williams and Stephon Gilmore (probably around or just a bit more cost than Tee's $22m) plus a 2nd round WR would help the team in 2024 more than Tee. It's reality, with Chase around Tee is a luxury and an expensive luxury made even worse by the fact he doesn't want to be here and doesn't want to play under the tag.

I'm sure you'll find another magical thing that is "moving goalposts" even though I have been consistent in both my praise and criticism of Tee. Enjoy. Have a good night.

(04-12-2024, 03:49 PM)Speedy Thomas Wrote: Aw hell no

(04-12-2024, 11:27 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: I've been mentioning the lack of Tee Higgins accolades this entire time. Literally still the exact same location for the goalposts.

You actually didn't do the same. You said...


You didn't use All-Pros OR stats. You just said some random shit and complained about goalposts despite me being very consistent in the fact that you're overvaluing Tee.

I never dismissed Tee's 1k seasons, he is a very good WR, I said as much. I just don't think he's a true difference maker or reliably healthy. I also don't agree with this top-20 myth you keep pushing. Here, I will just take a page out of your book and also just make a list of names and make proclamations. Right now he would be behind (roughly by draft year, no other order)....

Puka Nacua
Chris Olave
Garrett Wilson
George Pickens
Ja'Marr Chase
Amon Ra St Brown
Jaylen Waddle
Devonta Smith
Nico Collins (if he repeats his 2023 breakout)
Justin Jefferson
CeeDee Lamb
Brandon Aiyuk
AJ Brown
DK Metcalf
Terry McLauren
DJ Moore
Cooper Kupp
Chris Godwin
Tyreek Hill
Stefon Diggs
Amari Cooper
Tyler Lockett
Mike Evans
Devante Adams
Keenan Allen

Then Tee is in a little muddle with DeAndre Hopkins, Michael Pittman Jr, Rashee Rice and Jordan Addison.

That puts Tee in the 25 (if you don't believe in Nico Collins' breakout and put him at the very front of the muddle) and potentially 31st at the bottom of that muddle. That's not counting the probably 2-4 guys in the 2024 draft class who seemingly like clockwork are going to come out of the gates great.

Tee could indeed be a WR1 for someone, but I don't think he'd be more than a bottom tier WR1. He is a top-30 WR. Investing heavily in a potential bottom tier WR1 (with durability concerns) to be your WR2 just doesn't make sense when trying to build a team. I notice you never even tried to touch the reality that Connor Williams and Stephon Gilmore (probably around or just a bit more cost than Tee's $22m) plus a 2nd round WR would help the team in 2024 more than Tee. It's reality, with Chase around Tee is a luxury and an expensive luxury made even worse by the fact he doesn't want to be here and doesn't want to play under the tag.

I'm sure you'll find another magical thing that is "moving goalposts" even though I have been consistent in both my praise and criticism of Tee. Enjoy. Have a good night.

(04-12-2024, 05:11 PM)schroomytunes Wrote: No way do you trade him to a division rival, if they sign him as a FA fine, but you dont want to shoot yourself in the foot when divisional games are already smash mouth football games. The team we should be contacting is the Arizona Cardinals. There WR core is pretty weak and I would love to get that 2nd rd pick from them:

bengals trade: Tee Higgins

Cardinals trade # 35 (2) and swap 3rd rounders 71 for 97. that gives us picks (71 and 80) and they still have 3 also.

- agreed we could bring back boyd on a 1 year deal, and draft an outside burner to replace Higgins.