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+--- Thread: Hall and Bengals Still Talking Return (/thread-6637.html)
RE: Hall and Bengals Still Talking Return - bfine32 - 06-09-2016
(06-09-2016, 01:46 AM)wolfkaosaun Wrote: Really? Huh.You posted 4 stats and 3 of them were attributed the the entire defensive backfield that included Leon. The only stat you could contribute to Dre was that teams were same enough to stay away from the rest of the DBs.
Didn't know the Bengals were tied for 3rd in the NFL in passes per attempt with a mere 6.2 YPA.
Nor that they allowed only 18 passing TDs, 2nd in the NFL.
Or that they allowed a 78.9 QB rating this season, ranking them 5th in the NFL, only .1 behind the Broncos.
Or that Kirkpatrick had 16 pass break ups, which led the team. Also that ranked him tied for 11th in the NFL.
I get it, you're going by Profootball Focus rankings. But they literally have no stats or anything to help support that. Even with memberships.
They don't have completion percentages against defensive backs. They don't have contested catches percentages. They don't have touchdowns allowed. They have penalties though, so that's good.
Profootball Focus has gone downhill lately.
Also, if Kirkpatrick was really THAT bad, do you think any of those 4 stats would be the way they are?
Our Dline was pretty good, so that means Peko is good
Our oline is good, so that means Bodine is good.
You can consider Dre good if you want just don't look for someone that watches the games to agree with you. Like I said I hope he becomes All Pro this year but he has done nothing in his first 4 to suggest he will.
RE: Hall and Bengals Still Talking Return - bfine32 - 06-09-2016
(06-09-2016, 04:06 AM)wolfkaosaun Wrote: He was a rookie. Cornerback is the hardest transition to the NFL. That's a fact.
Dre just finished his 4th season in the NFL
RE: Hall and Bengals Still Talking Return - bfine32 - 06-09-2016
(06-09-2016, 01:58 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Pretty much. He's not very good and if the Bengals re-sign Hall to a low cost deal as their 3rd or 4th CB, I hope that means they cut Kirkpatrick and his $7.5m cap hit since they'd then have Jones/Dennard/Will Jack/Hall/Shaw as their CB depth, which is plenty good.
That $7.5m rolled over could get you someone seriously good in next year's FA class. (Next year's WR FA class looks amazing right now. Fitzgerald, Jeffery, V Jackson, D Jackson, Garcon, Wright, Floyd, Sanders, Baldwin, K Allen.)
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
And Kirkpatrick has never been a premier CB. Even Kirkpatrick's mother can't think he's a premier CB.
No one is saying: Don't bring in Dwight Freeney because his might stunt the growth of Marcus Hunt or Will Clarke, who have both been in the NFL fewer years than Dre and Freeney is 5 years older than Leon.
In 2005 the Oakland Raiders let a aging DB go in FA because of a couple down years due to injury and they wanted to give young first round draft choice Fabian Washington a chance to develop.
RE: Hall and Bengals Still Talking Return - fredtoast - 06-09-2016
(06-09-2016, 05:39 AM)bfine32 Wrote: Our Dline was pretty good, so that means Peko is good
Our oline is good, so that means Bodine is good.
O-line and D-line work as a unit. CBs are on an island by themselves. If Dre was garbage teams would just target him every time and drive easily down the field.
RE: Hall and Bengals Still Talking Return - fredtoast - 06-09-2016
(06-09-2016, 05:39 AM)bfine32 Wrote: You can consider Dre good if you want just don't look for someone that watches the games to agree with you.
I watch the games and I agree with him.
Since you are such an expert please tell me how many tds Dre allowed last year.
To claim that Hall, who was forced inside because Dre was better outside, is not as good as Dre is a joke.
RE: Hall and Bengals Still Talking Return - XenoMorph - 06-09-2016
(06-09-2016, 09:26 AM)fredtoast Wrote: O-line and D-line work as a unit. CBs are on an island by themselves. If Dre was garbage teams would just target him every time and drive easily down the field.
Dre is also the guy busting his ass down the field to save TDs from other peoples bad coverage.
Halls stats were a benefit of him covering 3rd and 4th options most Qbs didn't get much of a chance to take a shot at do to the pass rush.
And don't forget dre played with an injury last year.
RE: Hall and Bengals Still Talking Return - fredtoast - 06-09-2016
(06-09-2016, 02:10 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: PFF isn't the end all be all, but..Interesting theory.
-3rd in penalties in the entire NFL (all positions)
How do you explain the fact that 5 of the top 8 CBs in penalties were Pro Bowl picks, and 2 of them were First Team All Pro. Seems to me that a high number of penalties indicates that a CB is among the very best at his position in the leagu.
http://www.nflpenalties.com/position/defensive-back/cornerback?year=2015
2nd Aquib Talib....Pro Bowl last 3 straight years
5th Richard Sherman...First Team All Pro 3 times. Pro Bowl last 4 straight years.
5th Marcus Peters....Pro Bowl this year.
7th Josh Norman.... First Team All Pro this year
7th Vontae Davis... Pro Bowl last two years
RE: Hall and Bengals Still Talking Return - XenoMorph - 06-09-2016
(06-09-2016, 05:44 AM)bfine32 Wrote: Dre just finished his 4th season in the NFL
his first as a starter for more than 2 games.
RE: Hall and Bengals Still Talking Return - fredtoast - 06-09-2016
(06-09-2016, 02:10 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: PFF isn't the end all be all, but..
-2nd in missed tackles (among CBs)
So....
Can he tackle: Nope
This is comical. The CB who finished #3 in the league in solo tackles among CBs can't tackle?
Even PFF uses a "tackle efficiency" rating to judge a player instead of just missed tackles, but I guess if Chris Lewis-Harris had zero missed tackles last year Leonard would be claiming he was the best tackling CB in the entire league.
So what is the REAL stat on how efficient of a tackler Dre is?
RE: Hall and Bengals Still Talking Return - Au165 - 06-09-2016
Penalties for CBs are common for the elite guys. The Legion of Boom is notorious for guys dragging their CBs down the field, including Sherman. The theory is the NFL doesn't want their refs calling PI every play, so they will let it go more often than not. Dre is doing what many of the best CB's have learned and that is hold and hope you don't get called. He will get better with more time, I am not worried about it.
RE: Hall and Bengals Still Talking Return - bfine32 - 06-09-2016
(06-09-2016, 09:26 AM)fredtoast Wrote: O-line and D-line work as a unit. CBs are on an island by themselves. If Dre was garbage teams would just target him every time and drive easily down the field.
CBs don't work by themselves; coverage is often rolled there direction. The can't target Dre everytime; however, they do it with quite a bit of frequency. If you want I'll see if I can find the numbers for you.
RE: Hall and Bengals Still Talking Return - bfine32 - 06-09-2016
(06-09-2016, 09:55 AM)XenoMorph Wrote: his first as a starter for more than 2 games.
Not it wasn't.
Will folks quit playing like this was some rookie that we threw to the wolves. prior to 2015 he had played in 35 games and started 5 (not that starts are a big stat for a DB). It's OK to like Dre; but to date he has not be a very good CB.
RE: Hall and Bengals Still Talking Return - bfine32 - 06-09-2016
(06-09-2016, 11:29 AM)bfine32 Wrote: If you want I'll see if I can find the numbers for you.
hey, I found it for ya:
Quote:Cincinnati Bengals
Average PFF grade: 75.1
Cornerbacks: Adam Jones (84.6); Leon Hall (82.9); Dre Kirkpatrick (38.4)
Safeties: Reggie Nelson (85.8); George Iloka (84.0)
Outside of New England, the Bengals are the only other team garnering four defensive backs with a PFF rating above 80. If not for the struggles of Kirkpatrick, who is our 110th-ranked cornerback and the second-most targeted, with 105 passes sent his way, this group would be much higher. Nelson is tied with Kansas City’s Peters for the league-lead in interceptions, and even with Iloka missing time recently with a groin injury, Shawn Williams (73.4) has given the Bengals starter-level play off the bench.
Standout stat: Among cornerbacks with at least 275 snaps, Dre Kirkpatrick is the 116th highest-graded player, only ahead of Antwon Blake (PIT) and Brandon Browner (NO).
RE: Hall and Bengals Still Talking Return - fredtoast - 06-09-2016
(06-09-2016, 11:37 AM)bfine32 Wrote: hey, I found it for ya:
PFF individual rankings are a joke. A CB who played fewer snaps than Dre and made mistakes more often than Dre could still be ranked higher than Dre based on PFF's individual rankings. Those rankings are pretty much useless unless you believe that a player who played less and made mistakes more often should be ranked ahead of Dre.
RE: Hall and Bengals Still Talking Return - fredtoast - 06-09-2016
(06-09-2016, 11:29 AM)bfine32 Wrote: CBs don't work by themselves; coverage is often rolled there direction. The can't target Dre everytime; however, they do it with quite a bit of frequency.
High frequency, but low results. How many tds did Dre allow? What completion percentage did he allow? How many yards per target did he allow?
If Dre was as bad as you claim our pass defense would have been much worse.
RE: Hall and Bengals Still Talking Return - bfine32 - 06-09-2016
(06-09-2016, 11:49 AM)fredtoast Wrote: PFF individual rankings are a joke. A CB who played fewer snaps than Dre and made mistakes more often than Dre could still be ranked higher than Dre based on PFF's individual rankings. Those rankings are pretty much useless unless you believe that a player who played less and made mistakes more often should be ranked ahead of Dre.
So your stance was "He is not that bad because the don't throw at him everytime"
When shown he was targeted a whole lot, suddenly targets don't mean so much; now other things do.
You proclaim PFF ranking are a joke, but you expect us to believe your word isn't even if you keep changing it. So because the D is good as a unit; there is not room to critcize any one player?
Let's just leave it at opinion: Your opinion is Dre Krkpatrick has done a fine job as a CB he 4 years in the league, my opinion is he has not.
RE: Hall and Bengals Still Talking Return - fredtoast - 06-09-2016
(06-09-2016, 12:01 PM)bfine32 Wrote: So your stance was "He is not that bad because the don't throw at him everytime"
Someone needs to learn how to read.
(06-09-2016, 09:26 AM)fredtoast Wrote: If Dre was garbage teams would just target him every time and drive easily down the field.
RE: Hall and Bengals Still Talking Return - fredtoast - 06-09-2016
(06-09-2016, 12:01 PM)bfine32 Wrote: You proclaim PFF ranking are a joke, but you expect us to believe your word isn't even if you keep changing it.
I never changed my opinion in any way.
RE: Hall and Bengals Still Talking Return - bfine32 - 06-09-2016
(06-09-2016, 12:07 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Someone needs to learn how to read.
We'll leave up to other to read to determine who said what
(06-09-2016, 12:09 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I never changed my opinion in any way.
I didn't say you changed your opinion; I know full well that will not happen. I said you change your word.
(06-09-2016, 12:07 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Someone needs to learn how to read.
RE: Hall and Bengals Still Talking Return - fredtoast - 06-09-2016
(06-09-2016, 12:25 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I didn't say you changed your opinion; I know full well that will not happen. I said you change your word.
I never changed my "word" either.
And how is my "word" different from my "opinion"?