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RE: Marvin #12 - McC - 07-04-2015
(07-03-2015, 11:42 AM)GreenCornBengal Wrote: Meh, they just made the poll at the right time. In 2009 Rex Ryan would surely rate higher than Marvin Lewis... he outcoached him 2 weeks in a row.
Sure the Jets went down a bad road towards the end of his tenure, but it's not like a Marvin Lewis team has never hit rock bottom either.
At least Ryan got his team to the AFCC twice.
He got to NY, whipped an existing team into shape and made a couple playoff runs. But when it came to continue building or at least have sustaining success, he couldn't do it. And if he's not winning, his act gets too tiring to put up with.
If you miss on a QB, you screw the franchise for a while. That'll get you fired.
RE: Marvin #12 - rfaulk34 - 07-04-2015
(07-04-2015, 12:51 PM)GreenCornBengal Wrote: You're clearly misinterpreting what I am trying to say.
I'm not saying replacing Marvin makes us go to the Super Bowl.
I'm saying this organization and yourself are too scared to even ponder it.
He could get replaced and we could fall into the celler.
He could get replaced and we could do even better.
We KNOW what we are going to get with Marvin. If you can't see that after 12+ years then IDK what to tell ya.
You really think Marvin Lewis is going to magically take this team to the SB this season? or the next? or the next?
Do you REALLY feel deep inside that 12 years of no playoff victories is just bad luck and coincedince?
You can sit here in stagnant mediocrity if you want, but the rest of us want something different.
If anything, Sean Peyton and Mike McCarthy should give you faith that if we replaced Marvin with a shit coach, there is a decent coach just around the corner
Stagnant mediocrity is exactly right. Anyone that claims the Bengals shouldn't replace the coach because of what the team has been in the past or because of the bad things that have happened to other teams, are, and will be, stuck there forever.
12 years and 6 playoff flameouts later, what positive is there other than the fact the team plays well enough to get to the playoffs? If that's a fan's goal, it's a rather short-sighted goal. IF your goal is winning a SB, and you have a talented team, staying with what hasn't worked for so long is the definition of insanity.
For anyone wanting to post about how long it took X, Y and Z QB to get a playoff win...how many of those QBs had the same coach from their first loss to their first win? To be CLEAR; i agree with the patience and the possibility that a QB can win later in a career. I just don't see where they do it with the same coach.
RE: Marvin #12 - rfaulk34 - 07-04-2015
(07-04-2015, 01:09 PM)fredtoast Wrote: No you don't.
I have been around long enough to hear people say that they KNEW we would never make the playoffs in back to back years under Marvin.
In 2012 there were people here who KNEW that we could not beat the Stealers with a playoff spot on the line.
Just last year there were a lot of people who KNEW that we could not beat the Broncos on Monday night.
Forrest Gregg and Sam Wyche both had losing records as head coaches before taking us to the Super Bowl, so if you had been around back then you would have KNOWN that it was impossible for them to do that.
The one thing that is consistent for pretty much every NFL season. There will be teams, coaches, and players who do things they have never done before.
The facts is that you don't KNOW that Marvin can not take us to the Super Bowl. That is just your opinion.
Forrest Gregg went from 6-10 his first year, to the SB in his 2nd year. Sam Wyche won his first 2 playoff games as a HC.
The only thing i'll give Marv is that, an intelligent grown man should be able to learn from his mistakes. Marv has much to draw from in the 'doing it wrong' category. If a coach can't win a playoff game in his 7th try, in his 13th year, what are the chances he'll ever do it? And who wants to sit around waiting to see if he can at some point?
RE: Marvin #12 - rfaulk34 - 07-04-2015
Here's a little stat for you all to ponder...i hope you're sitting down.
The Marv 'win-less playoff era' has lasted exactly as long as 'the lost decade' of Bengals lore.
Ouch?
RE: Marvin #12 - fredtoast - 07-04-2015
(07-04-2015, 02:21 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: 12 years and 6 playoff flameouts later, what positive is there other than the fact the team plays well enough to get to the playoffs?
But the thing is that there is no real difference betwen coaching in the regular season and coaching in the playoffs. The rules are the same, the shcemes are the same, the players are the same and both teams are just as desperate to win.
If there was some secret magic to winning in the playoffs then the same coaches would be winning all the time. But that just doesn't happen. The fact is that some very poor coaches have won playoff games and some very good ones have lost playoff games.
So that fact that Marvin has coached good enough to have a winning record against playoff teams the last couple of years is a pretty good indication that he is good enough to win a playoff game. The fact that he hasn't is a bit of a mystery, but the rules and players are the same in the playoffs as in the regular season. So I am not in favor of dumping Marvin just because he has not won a playoff game yet.
RE: Marvin #12 - rfaulk34 - 07-04-2015
(07-04-2015, 02:58 PM)fredtoast Wrote: But the thing is that there is no real difference betwen coaching in the regular season and coaching in the playoffs. The rules are the same, the shcemes are the same, the players are the same and both teams are just as desperate to win.
If there was some secret magic to winning in the playoffs then the same coaches would be winning all the time. But that just doesn't happen. The fact is that some very poor coaches have won playoff games and some very good ones have lost playoff games.
So that fact that Marvin has coached good enough to have a winning record against playoff teams the last couple of years is a pretty good indication that he is good enough to win a playoff game. The fact that he hasn't is a bit of a mystery, but the rules and players are the same in the playoffs as in the regular season. So I am not in favor of dumping Marvin just because he has not won a playoff game yet.
I don't disagree with a word you typed. I feel that he's "good enough" as well, for the reasons you stated. The point of the "replace Marv" crowd is that, not only hasn't he won in the playoffs despite these truths, he's lost badly--6 times--and looked like a deer-in-the-headlights before the last couple. Given so many chances, he's failed every single time when all the logic dictates he should have won at least one of them, if not more. The Chargers game...i mean, talk about 'silver platter'. :angry:
RE: Marvin #12 - GreenCornBengal - 07-04-2015
(07-04-2015, 02:58 PM)fredtoast Wrote: But the thing is that there is no real difference betwen coaching in the regular season and coaching in the playoffs. The rules are the same, the shcemes are the same, the players are the same and both teams are just as desperate to win.
If there was some secret magic to winning in the playoffs then the same coaches would be winning all the time. But that just doesn't happen. The fact is that some very poor coaches have won playoff games and some very good ones have lost playoff games.
So that fact that Marvin has coached good enough to have a winning record against playoff teams the last couple of years is a pretty good indication that he is good enough to win a playoff game. The fact that he hasn't is a bit of a mystery, but the rules and players are the same in the playoffs as in the regular season. So I am not in favor of dumping Marvin just because he has not won a playoff game yet.
There is a difference in the playoffs, its the caliber of opponent you are playing. In the post season, you don't get to play the AFC South and NFC south teams, instead you play AFC North caliber teams. I think its easy to look back at Marvins record against these types of opponenets and see it just isn't on par with how well he does against the other opponents. When he gets to the playoffs, its guaranteed he gets to play a higher echelon opponent, which doesn't end well (most of the time).
RE: Marvin #12 - fredtoast - 07-04-2015
(07-04-2015, 03:12 PM)GreenCornBengal Wrote: There is a difference in the playoffs, its the caliber of opponent you are playing. In the post season, you don't get to play the AFC South and NFC south teams, instead you play AFC North caliber teams. I think its easy to look back at Marvins record against these types of opponenets and see it just isn't on par with how well he does against the other opponents. When he gets to the playoffs, its guaranteed he gets to play a higher echelon opponent, which doesn't end well (most of the time).
Over the last two seasons Marvin is 8-6 versus playoff teams with wins over the Patriots, Packers, Colts, Broncos, Stealers, Ravens, and Chargers.
He has proven that he can beat these teams.
RE: Marvin #12 - GreenCornBengal - 07-04-2015
(07-04-2015, 03:17 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Over the last two seasons Marvin is 8-6 versus playoff teams with wins over the Patriots, Packers, Colts, Broncos, Stealers, Ravens, and Chargers.
He has proven that he can beat these teams.
Glad he has gotten better over the past 12 years, he might be turning the corner!
RE: Marvin #12 - fredtoast - 07-04-2015
(07-04-2015, 03:41 PM)GreenCornBengal Wrote: Glad he has gotten better over the past 12 years, he might be turning the corner!
Jeff Fisher took a team to the Super Bowl and won a playoff game 11 years ago.
Do you consider him a better coach than Marvin Lewis rigth now?
RE: Marvin #12 - GreenCornBengal - 07-04-2015
(07-04-2015, 03:57 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Jeff Fisher took a team to the Super Bowl and won a playoff game 11 years ago.
Do you consider him a better coach than Marvin Lewis rigth now?
Fisher - Currently no, overall yes. He has done some impressive things in St. Louis to be honest, we will see if he can cap it off with some playoff action, its too early to tell on there. The Titans had a pretty magical run the year they got to the superbowl. Fisher has some strange luck factor to him. I guess my answer is slightly better.
Ken Wisenhunt took a team to the superbowl as well, but I don't see him as better than Marvin.
John Fox has been to multiple super bowls, do you think Marvin is a better coach than him right now?
RE: Marvin #12 - bfine32 - 07-04-2015
Usually find the Marvin threads silly. Ranking Marvin as the 12th best HC in the NFL is just about right.
Begs the question: What do you call a team that has lost a playoff game four straight years? A perennial playoff team.
Marvin and co has worked miracles with what they have been given. Who was they last starting-caliber, in his prime, free agent Mikey has given Marvin? Marvin has been given the task to field a competitive team with his draft picks, nobody and over-the-hill FAs.
To Mike Brown the Cincinnati Bengals are a business. Marvin had allowed Mikey to earn a hefty bottom line and has given the fans an enjoyable product.
RE: Marvin #12 - bfine32 - 07-04-2015
(07-04-2015, 04:10 PM)GreenCornBengal Wrote: John Fox has been to multiple super bowls, do you think Marvin is a better coach than him right now?
If Marvin had Peyton Manning and Fox had Andy Dalton over the last couple years, folks would most likely view him as a better HC
RE: Marvin #12 - GreenCornBengal - 07-04-2015
(07-04-2015, 06:07 PM)bfine32 Wrote: If Marvin had Peyton Manning and Fox had Andy Dalton over the last couple years, folks would most likely view him as a better HC
Ya I thought about that too, but to Fox's credit he also got to a superbowl with Jake Delhomme as his starting QB.
RE: Marvin #12 - t3r3e3 - 07-05-2015
(07-04-2015, 10:37 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Then who is this available coach who will take us to the championship or Super Bowl?
Harbaugh was for a short time. He'll spend the next few years turning around Michigan then the next 7-8 owning the Big 10.
RE: Marvin #12 - t3r3e3 - 07-05-2015
(07-03-2015, 11:00 AM)PlayerFormerlyKnownAsMousecop Wrote: No he's not.
10 QB's that are better: Aaron Rodgers, Tom Brady, Andrew Luck, Peyton Manning, Drew Brees, Ben Roethlisberger, Matt Ryan, Phillip Rivers, Matthew Stafford and Tony Romo.
There's even a few more I could list. Dial me when Wilson carries his team year after year like the players listed above and you might have something that resembles an argument. For now, Wilson is ~ a top 15-12 QB who plays on a historically good team.
This is totally off thread topic, but there's no way Stafford is a better NFL QB than Wilson, and Matt Ryan is easily the most overrated upper tier QB in the league. Ryan is basically a rich man's Dalton. He's limited from an athletic and arm talent standpoint, and can't carry the offense without absolute studs at WR. Give him Wilson's WR crew and he does nothing. At this stage of his career Wilson is guaranteed Top 10 and likely Top 8. He's been Top6-8 in Passer rating since he came into the league, has run for almost 2000 yards, and doesn't turn the ball over. He's got the arm, the pocket presence, the leadership traits, and basically everything but prototypical size.
RE: Marvin #12 - fredtoast - 07-05-2015
(07-04-2015, 01:33 PM)GreenCornBengal Wrote: By your logic, every team should just stick with the coach they have, cuz hell YA NEVER KNOW!!
Teams that are losing need to replace their coaches.
Thanks for displaying you analytical skills.
RE: Marvin #12 - fredtoast - 07-05-2015
(07-04-2015, 01:57 PM)PApinhead Wrote: You know, we probably should just cut all of our rookies and bring back anyone we cut from last year's team too. I mean we made the playoffs with them, so why change anything? Last year's team should be all we need to get us some playoff wins and maybe a Super Bowl.
Marvin is ranked as #12 in the league. he is well above average. So we should do exactly the same things with the players as we do with the coach. Keep the good ones and dump the one belowe average.
But thanks for showing the real problem with YOUR logic. it would require us to replace everyn single player on our team, no matter how good he is because none of them have won a playoff game. Good bye to all those bums like Whitworth, Green, Hill, and Dunlap.
RE: Marvin #12 - fredtoast - 07-05-2015
(07-04-2015, 02:08 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Fred if we were improving every year I'd whole heartedly agree with you.
Until last season we had been improving steadily every year since 2010 in every facet of the game. Our offense was getting better. ouer defense was getting better, and most importantly our record against winning teams was getting much better.
RE: Marvin #12 - fredtoast - 07-05-2015
(07-04-2015, 06:05 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Marvin and co has worked miracles with what they have been given. Who was they last starting-caliber, in his prime, free agent Mikey has given Marvin? Marvin has been given the task to field a competitive team with his draft picks, nobody and over-the-hill FAs.
Exactly. people crucify the front office for refusing to sing any top free agents then refuse to give Marvin credit for winning without them.