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RE: Who do you think will have a better future in the NFL at QB? - Marlon23 - 09-03-2015
(09-03-2015, 02:44 AM)Utts Wrote: This is Andy's last year as the starter in Cincinnati. Whether or not A.J. replaces him remains to be seen, but I see Andy get worse - not better.
I have to lean towards this right now we gets eggs thrown at us, Next year when it happens we still wont be celebrated but have a bunch of people saying "I told you guys AJ was the Star".............. But we will know UTTS we will know... !!
RE: Who do you think will have a better future in the NFL at QB? - PhilHos - 09-03-2015
(09-03-2015, 02:44 AM)Utts Wrote: This is Andy's last year as the starter in Cincinnati. Whether or not A.J. replaces him remains to be seen, but I see Andy get worse - not better.
(09-03-2015, 09:53 AM)Marlon23 Wrote: I have to lean towards this right now we gets eggs thrown at us, Next year when it happens we still wont be celebrated but have a bunch of people saying "I told you guys AJ was the Star".............. But we will know UTTS we will know... !!
I don't know how you guys can think this. Andy improved every season until last year. And even then, at the beginning of the year, before the injuries started to pile up, he was pretty consistent (and consistently good). Barring injury, I don't see how anyone can think that Dalton will get worse. Remaining inconsistent, sure, but worse? Child please.
RE: Who do you think will have a better future in the NFL at QB? - djs7685 - 09-03-2015
(09-03-2015, 09:59 AM)PhilHos Wrote: I don't know how you guys can think this. Andy improved every season until last year. And even then, at the beginning of the year, before the injuries started to pile up, he was pretty consistent (and consistently good). Barring injury, I don't see how anyone can think that Dalton will get worse. Remaining inconsistent, sure, but worse? Child please.
Improved his numbers speaking purely of statistics? Sure.
Improved his footwork, ability to handle pressure, erratic decision making, and velocity on intermediate throws? I'm not so sure he improved on all of those weaknesses that he's had his entire career. No QB is perfect, so naturally he's going to have some things listed in his negative column, but what has he really improved on that has impressed you? Let's be honest, though his numbers jumped from 2012 to 2013, he didn't look like some sort of transformed QB like some people around here want to say when they claim "Andy improved each year". If you want to go by stats only, that's the only way the statement is accurate, and that's extremely misleading and not much evidence to anyone outside of the casual football fan.
The team put some playmakers around Andy in 2013 and put him in a position to rack up some volume. It's a positive that Andy was a good enough QB to be able to execute and put up those numbers, I'm not trying to take anything away from him in that regard. Not every QB is going to succeed in that situation, so kudos to him for that. I'm just simply saying that there's much, much more to "he improved" than looking at the stat sheet. His mechanics and decision making looked awfully similar to me from 2011 - 2013. 2014 was the first year I actually saw some different stuff that I was happy to see but it faded as the year went on, and those things happened regardless of injuries.
FWIW, I think Andy will have a career year. His improved mechanics that I saw in the beginning of 2014 will hopefully return along with his weapons from 2013 and Jeremy Hill on top of all of that. Andy is due for a great season on paper, so we shall see.
RE: Who do you think will have a better future in the NFL at QB? - XenoMorph - 09-03-2015
(09-03-2015, 10:15 AM)djs7685 Wrote: Improved his numbers speaking purely of statistics? Sure.
Improved his footwork, ability to handle pressure, erratic decision making, and velocity on intermediate throws? I'm not so sure he improved on all of those weaknesses that he's had his entire career. No QB is perfect, so naturally he's going to have some things listed in his negative column, but what has he really improved on that has impressed you? Let's be honest, though his numbers jumped from 2012 to 2013, he didn't look like some sort of transformed QB like some people around here want to say when they claim "Andy improved each year". If you want to go by stats only, that's the only way the statement is accurate, and that's extremely misleading and not much evidence to anyone outside of the casual football fan.
The team put some playmakers around Andy in 2013 and put him in a position to rack up some volume. It's a positive that Andy was a good enough QB to be able to execute and put up those numbers, I'm not trying to take anything away from him in that regard. Not every QB is going to succeed in that situation, so kudos to him for that. I'm just simply saying that there's much, much more to "he improved" than looking at the stat sheet. His mechanics and decision making looked awfully similar to me from 2011 - 2013. 2014 was the first year I actually saw some different stuff that I was happy to see but it faded as the year went on, and those things happened regardless of injuries.
FWIW, I think Andy will have a career year. His improved mechanics that I saw in the beginning of 2014 will hopefully return along with his weapons from 2013 and Jeremy Hill on top of all of that. Andy is due for a great season on paper, so we shall see.
i will say in 2013 he did a great job of spreading the ball around and not just going after AJ (he still targeted AJ alot) but had more options and used them.
Didnt have that last year after about game 3/4...(the options)
Hoping to see the offensive get back to that this year.
RE: Who do you think will have a better future in the NFL at QB? - Who Dey Time - 09-03-2015
Dalton in a total landslide.
First, AJ has 4 seasons worth of success to catch up on. Spare me the playoff crap as we all know Dalton and everyone else needs to show more in January. But very few have pulled off what Andy has in his first four seasons.
Second, even if the Dalton haters get their wish and he is out of here, another team will move quickly to get him and he will continue to succeed in that organization. Mind you, that this scenario is a long shot because Andy is going to be here for quite a while despite what the haters will want you to believe.
Third, AJ was a 5th round pick for a reason. My hope is that he is the long-term backup solution here because that position has been in a constant flux situation for years. But one preseason effort does not make a solid NFL starting QB.
RE: Who do you think will have a better future in the NFL at QB? - PhilHos - 09-03-2015
(09-03-2015, 10:15 AM)djs7685 Wrote: Improved his numbers speaking purely of statistics? Sure.
Improved his footwork, ability to handle pressure, erratic decision making, and velocity on intermediate throws? I'm not so sure he improved on all of those weaknesses that he's had his entire career. No QB is perfect, so naturally he's going to have some things listed in his negative column, but what has he really improved on that has impressed you? Let's be honest, though his numbers jumped from 2012 to 2013, he didn't look like some sort of transformed QB like some people around here want to say when they claim "Andy improved each year". If you want to go by stats only, that's the only way the statement is accurate, and that's extremely misleading and not much evidence to anyone outside of the casual football fan.
The team put some playmakers around Andy in 2013 and put him in a position to rack up some volume. It's a positive that Andy was a good enough QB to be able to execute and put up those numbers, I'm not trying to take anything away from him in that regard. Not every QB is going to succeed in that situation, so kudos to him for that. I'm just simply saying that there's much, much more to "he improved" than looking at the stat sheet. His mechanics and decision making looked awfully similar to me from 2011 - 2013. 2014 was the first year I actually saw some different stuff that I was happy to see but it faded as the year went on, and those things happened regardless of injuries.
FWIW, I think Andy will have a career year. His improved mechanics that I saw in the beginning of 2014 will hopefully return along with his weapons from 2013 and Jeremy Hill on top of all of that. Andy is due for a great season on paper, so we shall see.
First off, show me a QB that improved whose stats went down and I don't mean yards, TDs, etc (although, even then, you won't find too many). I'm talking about QB rating. QB rating is a rather effective measurement of a QB's performance. To which Dalton's has gone up each year 'til last year.
In non-statistical areas, Andy has improved as well. For example, he's better at reading defenses and making adjustments to the plays, to the lines, etc. And, heck, wasn't 2013 his best year in terms of deep ball throwing?
I never really thought there was an argument to Dalton having improved since he first came into the league. Like his average-ness, I thought it was agreed by everyone other than the extremists, that Dalton HAD improved. Honestly, do you think Dalton was the same QB in 2012, 2013, and even 2014 that he was in 2011?
RE: Who do you think will have a better future in the NFL at QB? - djs7685 - 09-03-2015
(09-03-2015, 11:38 AM)PhilHos Wrote: First off, show me a QB that improved whose stats went down and I don't mean yards, TDs, etc (although, even then, you won't find too many). I'm talking about QB rating. QB rating is a rather effective measurement of a QB's performance. To which Dalton's has gone up each year 'til last year.
In non-statistical areas, Andy has improved as well. For example, he's better at reading defenses and making adjustments to the plays, to the lines, etc. And, heck, wasn't 2013 his best year in terms of deep ball throwing?
I never really thought there was an argument to Dalton having improved since he first came into the league. Like his average-ness, I thought it was agreed by everyone other than the extremists, that Dalton HAD improved. Honestly, do you think Dalton was the same QB in 2012, 2013, and even 2014 that he was in 2011?
The only year that I saw clear improvement was 2014 to be honest with you.
In 2011, I actually considered Andy to be a good QB. I told all my friends to watch out because when this kid improves, you're looking at the face of the franchise. Well, he looked eerily similar in 2012 and then again in 2013. The only difference in 2013 was the talent around him jumped by a bit and it seemed like Gruden pulled out an entirely different offensive scheme for that season. Andy was talented enough to put up reasonable stats in 2013 though, so I do give him credit for that. IMO, put those same guys and the same scheme around him in 2012 and he puts up those same statistics. Like I said, I didn't see a drastically different QB as much as I saw different playmakers and scheming. Andy is talented enough to put up numbers when you put good players around him with a solid gameplan.
Andy looked very good for a rookie in 2011 IMO, but he never really improved (much) on his areas of weakness. He looked uncomfortable in the pocket for his first 3 years and his velocity on certain routes has always been a huge question mark. The seemingly random poor decision making has also stuck with him this entire time.
I wouldn't call myself an extremist just because I'm looking past the stats and speaking purely of what I've seen in the games over the last 4 years. It's not a huge knock on Andy because he's still a decent QB and could break out this year, he just didn't drastically improve as some want to make it seem by posting nothing but stats. I'm not saying he was the 100%, exact QB in each year with no changes whatsoever, but I didn't see much improvement on his weaknesses until just a year ago.
RE: Who do you think will have a better future in the NFL at QB? - WhoDeyWho - 09-03-2015
(09-03-2015, 11:38 AM)PhilHos Wrote: First off, show me a QB that improved whose stats went down and I don't mean yards, TDs, etc (although, even then, you won't find too many). I'm talking about QB rating. QB rating is a rather effective measurement of a QB's performance. To which Dalton's has gone up each year 'til last year.
In non-statistical areas, Andy has improved as well. For example, he's better at reading defenses and making adjustments to the plays, to the lines, etc. And, heck, wasn't 2013 his best year in terms of deep ball throwing?
I never really thought there was an argument to Dalton having improved since he first came into the league. Like his average-ness, I thought it was agreed by everyone other than the extremists, that Dalton HAD improved. Honestly, do you think Dalton was the same QB in 2012, 2013, and even 2014 that he was in 2011?
It's obvious Dalton improved. And he did it with a scrub at the starting RB spot.
RE: Who do you think will have a better future in the NFL at QB? - djs7685 - 09-03-2015
(09-03-2015, 12:05 PM)WhoDeyWho Wrote: It's obvious Dalton improved. And he did it with a scrub at the starting RB spot.
More numbers =/= automatically improving.
But okay, you guys are free to have the casual fan mindset.
RE: Who do you think will have a better future in the NFL at QB? - PhilHos - 09-03-2015
(09-03-2015, 12:03 PM)djs7685 Wrote: The only year that I saw clear improvement was 2014 to be honest with you.
Then you weren't looking close enough.
(09-03-2015, 12:03 PM)djs7685 Wrote: In 2011, I actually considered Andy to be a good QB. I told all my friends to watch out because when this kid improves, you're looking at the face of the franchise. Well, he looked eerily similar in 2012 and then again in 2013. The only difference in 2013 was the talent around him jumped by a bit and it seemed like Gruden pulled out an entirely different offensive scheme for that season. Andy was talented enough to put up reasonable stats in 2013 though, so I do give him credit for that. IMO, put those same guys and the same scheme around him in 2012 and he puts up those same statistics. Like I said, I didn't see a drastically different QB as much as I saw different playmakers and scheming. Andy is talented enough to put up numbers when you put good players around him with a solid gameplan.
Maybe they changed the scheme because Dalton had IMPROVED enough to put more on his plate? Did that thought occur to you?
And I wouldn't say he looked "eerily similar in 2012" to 2011. In fact, i saw a guy trying to do MORE in 2012. Hence the increased attempts at plays that turned into INTs that in 2011 he would've thrown away. I'm not saying this qualifies as an improvement, BTW, but it's ridiculous to think that Dalton looked like the same QB in 2012 as he did in his rookie year.
(09-03-2015, 12:03 PM)djs7685 Wrote: Andy looked very good for a rookie in 2011 IMO, but he never really improved (much) on his areas of weakness. He looked uncomfortable in the pocket for his first 3 years and his velocity on certain routes has always been a huge question mark. The seemingly random poor decision making has also stuck with him this entire time.
No one has said Andy still doesn't have room for improvement. Yeah, there are some areas that seem to be the same (and some arguably worse). How does that mean he hasn't improved in other areas? Peyton Manning's biggest weakness has always been that if the defense moves and shifts a lot prior to the ball snapping, he struggles. He's struggled with this for his entire career. Wouldn't you say he's improved in other areas, though? (BTW, I did the Peyton comparison just to piss some people off.
)(09-03-2015, 12:03 PM)djs7685 Wrote: I wouldn't call myself an extremist just because I'm looking past the stats and speaking purely of what I've seen in the games over the last 4 years. It's not a huge knock on Andy because he's still a decent QB and could break out this year, he just didn't drastically improve as some want to make it seem by posting nothing but stats. I'm not saying he was the 100%, exact QB in each year with no changes whatsoever, but I didn't see much improvement on his weaknesses until just a year ago.
I never called nor implied you were an extremist, however, there's no denying that Dalton has improved in some areas and needs improvement in other areas. You can argue that he hasn't improved in some areas at all, but that's a different argument.
RE: Who do you think will have a better future in the NFL at QB? - BayouBengal - 09-03-2015
(09-03-2015, 09:45 AM)Stormborn Wrote: Somehow you've made your point more invalid.
How the **** does this mean anything? John Skelton set the record for this or something. It has no clear correlation of translating to NFL success. Why? Because it takes place in a ***** science lab, a fake one more specifically.
You've just made a mockery of the entire evaluation process and I need no further proof ever that your a biased McCarron/Alabama fan, who would negate all conclusive game film and resort to SPORTS SCIENCE for argumental support.
BTW, I've always hated Louisville sports. UC for life.
First off I didn't bring up Teddy B, someone else did and said he was looking better than McCarron. Of course that makes me think of this show I remembered watching where those two QBs happened to compete directly against each other and AJ won.
Second how is this a mockery of anything. I watched AJ at Alabama and that's how I know he's got something special about him. I'm not relying on sports science to find the next great QB. Real football analyst evaluated him as a 2nd rounder pre-draft. They must be making a mockery of the process because he was so clearly a destined 5th rounder to everyone else who never saw him play.
I've said before I was expecting him to go earlier in the draft and was shocked when the Bengals picked him in the 5th. I was super happy when I found out, but didn't anticipate having to argue my point that this was a hugely underrated QB and a awesome pick for the Bengals to basically every Bengals fan. All this dude does is win, soon others will start seeing that too.
RE: Who do you think will have a better future in the NFL at QB? - BigSeph - 09-03-2015
Basically Bengal fans view Andy Dalton like NE Pats fans viewed Bledsoe. There was the same kind of petty putdown BS going on when some people in New England were talking up Tom Brady. The Bledsoe apologists talked about how good his stats were, how they had gone so long without a franchise QB. Even when Bledsoe got hurt and Brady came in, he didn't exactly set the NFL on fire or anything, and people were still calling for Bledsoe to get his job back when he was healthy.
Drew Bledsoe was a capable NFL QB who had a couple of very good statistical seasons. But he was not a playoff success story. The very same criticisms of Dalton (lackadaisical, intangibles, choke artist) were criticisms of Drew Bledsoe.
Can you guys identify which player is Andy Dalton below?
Player1 - 85.2 career QB rating, 57.8 career playoff QB rating, 1:6 TD:INT ratio
Player2 - 77.1 career QB rating, 54.9 career playoff QB rating, 1:2 TD:INT ratio
They're both good regular season QBs who choke in the playoffs.
It didn't turn out so well for Bledsoe, despite all of the apologists and excuse-makers in New England crying rivers of tears when Tom Brady took his job. The apologists and excuse-makers here will cry rivers of tears when AJ takes Andy's spot too.
RE: Who do you think will have a better future in the NFL at QB? - Stormborn - 09-03-2015
(09-03-2015, 12:46 PM)BayouBengal Wrote: First off I didn't bring up Teddy B, someone else did and said he was looking better than McCarron. Of course that makes me think of this show I remembered watching where those two QBs happened to compete directly against each other and AJ won.
Second how is this a mockery of anything. I watched AJ at Alabama and that's how I know he's got something special about him. I'm not relying on sports science to find the next great QB. Real football analyst evaluated him as a 2nd rounder pre-draft. They must be making a mockery of the process because he was so clearly a destined 5th rounder to everyone else who never saw him play.
I've said before I was expecting him to go earlier in the draft and was shocked when the Bengals picked him in the 5th. I was super happy when I found out, but didn't anticipate having to argue my point that this was a hugely underrated QB and a awesome pick for the Bengals to basically every Bengals fan. All this dude does is win, soon others will start seeing that too.
That someone was me, used as a joke mind you, because Teddy is clearly on a better developmental path than both of our QBs at the moment because he was a better prospect than Andy and AJ.
Depends on who used what to evaluate him, if they included the god talent of Alabama and how many times he was bailed out, then middle rounds was pretty accurate. If they used team trophies and inflated stats, then 2nd round was probably appropriate.
RE: Who do you think will have a better future in the NFL at QB? - XenoMorph - 09-03-2015
(09-03-2015, 12:51 PM)BigSeph Wrote: Basically Bengal fans view Andy Dalton like NE Pats fans viewed Bledsoe. There was the same kind of petty putdown BS going on when some people in New England were talking up Tom Brady. The Bledsoe apologists talked about how good his stats were, how they had gone so long without a franchise QB. Even when Bledsoe got hurt and Brady came in, he didn't exactly set the NFL on fire or anything, and people were still calling for Bledsoe to get his job back when he was healthy.
Drew Bledsoe was a capable NFL QB who had a couple of very good statistical seasons. But he was not a playoff success story. The very same criticisms of Dalton (lackadaisical, intangibles, choke artist) were criticisms of Drew Bledsoe.
Can you guys identify which player is Andy Dalton below?
Player1 - 85.2 career QB rating, 57.8 career playoff QB rating, 1:6 TD:INT ratio
Player2 - 77.1 career QB rating, 54.9 career playoff QB rating, 1:2 TD:INT ratio
They're both good regular season QBs who choke in the playoffs.
It didn't turn out so well for Bledsoe, despite all of the apologists and excuse-makers in New England crying rivers of tears when Tom Brady took his job. The apologists and excuse-makers here will cry rivers of tears when AJ takes Andy's spot too.
AS a fan of the team and a supporter of dalton.. If dalton got hurt and Mccarron took his job and did as well with it as brady has over the years i wouldnt complain.
I would complain if after mccarron in this hypothetical took daltons job then dalton went to another team and had more success than we did during mccarron tenure. (but would still support mccarron as he would be a bengal.)
whatever helps my team be successful im all for. But i dont see how anyone can say mccarron will be obviously better after 2 preseason games.
RE: Who do you think will have a better future in the NFL at QB? - type_stripe - 09-03-2015
(09-03-2015, 12:51 PM)BigSeph Wrote: Basically Bengal fans view Andy Dalton like NE Pats fans viewed Bledsoe. There was the same kind of petty putdown BS going on when some people in New England were talking up Tom Brady. The Bledsoe apologists talked about how good his stats were, how they had gone so long without a franchise QB. Even when Bledsoe got hurt and Brady came in, he didn't exactly set the NFL on fire or anything, and people were still calling for Bledsoe to get his job back when he was healthy.
Drew Bledsoe was a capable NFL QB who had a couple of very good statistical seasons. But he was not a playoff success story. The very same criticisms of Dalton (lackadaisical, intangibles, choke artist) were criticisms of Drew Bledsoe.
Can you guys identify which player is Andy Dalton below?
Player1 - 85.2 career QB rating, 57.8 career playoff QB rating, 1:6 TD:INT ratio
Player2 - 77.1 career QB rating, 54.9 career playoff QB rating, 1:2 TD:INT ratio
They're both good regular season QBs who choke in the playoffs.
It didn't turn out so well for Bledsoe, despite all of the apologists and excuse-makers in New England crying rivers of tears when Tom Brady took his job. The apologists and excuse-makers here will cry rivers of tears when AJ takes Andy's spot too.
The bolded part made me chuckle. even if it does AJ is no Brady and won't bring in 4 SB victories, so we'll end up ditching him too
RE: Who do you think will have a better future in the NFL at QB? - clevelandsdad - 09-04-2015
(09-03-2015, 12:51 PM)BigSeph Wrote: Basically Bengal fans view Andy Dalton like NE Pats fans viewed Bledsoe. There was the same kind of petty putdown BS going on when some people in New England were talking up Tom Brady. The Bledsoe apologists talked about how good his stats were, how they had gone so long without a franchise QB. Even when Bledsoe got hurt and Brady came in, he didn't exactly set the NFL on fire or anything, and people were still calling for Bledsoe to get his job back when he was healthy.
Drew Bledsoe was a capable NFL QB who had a couple of very good statistical seasons. But he was not a playoff success story. The very same criticisms of Dalton (lackadaisical, intangibles, choke artist) were criticisms of Drew Bledsoe.
Can you guys identify which player is Andy Dalton below?
Player1 - 85.2 career QB rating, 57.8 career playoff QB rating, 1:6 TD:INT ratio
Player2 - 77.1 career QB rating, 54.9 career playoff QB rating, 1:2 TD:INT ratio
They're both good regular season QBs who choke in the playoffs.
It didn't turn out so well for Bledsoe, despite all of the apologists and excuse-makers in New England crying rivers of tears when Tom Brady took his job. The apologists and excuse-makers here will cry rivers of tears when AJ takes Andy's spot too.
While the comparison makes sense, you are seeming to forget that the Pats had Tom Brady behind Bledsoe. You are insinuating that McCarron will be like Tom Brady. The one-in-a-million QB.
Sorry, but this is wishful thinking. And that is an understatement.