(01-25-2016, 10:07 AM)Sovereign Nation Wrote: Please. Cam has a 1st round WR, a 1st round TE, and a 1st round RB.  With a 3rd round TE and a 2nd round rookie WR... not to mention some veterans that have played decently on other teams in their career.

Cam has a lot of talent surrounding him.

Add in that they are a run first team and he doesn't need great talent at WR, only solid talent, which is what he has.

No one expected them to finish in the bottom of the NFCS, it was just a possibility since the whole division isn't exactly a powerhouse.

(01-25-2016, 10:25 AM)Rubekahn29 Wrote: It's easy to keep it light when you are 17-1. That one loss however, he spent a majority of the game and after sulking. 

(01-25-2016, 01:02 PM)BritishBengal Wrote: Way to mask the truth with stating only their draft position. His weapons are Ted Ginn, a (up until this season) monumental draft bust who has hopped from team to team. Philly Brown an undrafted WR from OSU. A solid TE in Olson, but was far from elite and Jonathan Stewart, talented, but oft injured. Those are his starting weapons. Now going into the season, I think there is little doubt he had the weakest talent of any team in the NFL on paper. The fact they have flourished is undoubtedly in large part down to Cam. 


How should he react? Be happy? Or present himself to the media like every other QB? Pretend it doesn't hurt and only look forward to the next game?

(01-25-2016, 02:03 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Yup. There's no doubt that Cam had the weakest group of "weapons" around him in the NFL this year. Olsen is great, but those WRs? Blech. Funchess early on looks like a bust. Ginn hasn't been used much since his days in Miami (hint - a long time ago). Cam sure could've used Benjamin this year.

As for what Cam did in college, are we really going to act like "receiving stolen ptoperty" is a big deal? All that means is that he bought a stolen item (laptop) from someone. It's possible he didn't even find out it was stolen until after he bought it. I bet most of the people on these boards have "received stolen property" unknowingly or not.

Even if you want to take a minor charge from 6 years ago seriously, what has Cam done since? He's been a straight arrow and he's constantly doing nice things for people. I really have to wonder about people that genuinely hate the guy. There's nothing there to hate about the guy. Nothing.

(01-24-2016, 11:58 PM)Joelist Wrote: AZ turned over six times which was the only reason they lost. |

Scam is an amoral piece of crap who only avoided prison because his college had the court in its pocket, and anyone who roots for him is also an amoral piece of crap.

(01-25-2016, 03:51 PM)BonnieBengal Wrote: If you are talking about Cam purchasing a stolen computer, this could have started as a felony charge for a theft over $300 but under the amount for a second degree felony.  It would be a third degree felony charge to start off with.   It would be very rare for anyone to get the max punishment of 5 years in prison or 5 years probation, which is what Florida law says is the max punishment for this.  Getting the pre trial diversion program on a first offense like this is very common, and not because of any special agreement with the college. Getting the charge reduced to a misdemeanor charge is also communion a first offense.   I have to get court records of offenses for my job and I see this all the time.  Highly unlikely anyone would be in prison for this crime on a first offense, especially if they had a decent attorney.  It is also very common for college and high school kids to make mistakes like this, and judges would and do hesitate to ruin their whole lives over it.   Pre trial diversion programs were created for purposes like these.  They are used often and not used to placate any college.

(01-24-2016, 11:34 PM)EatonFan Wrote: Different for sure.  Newton appears to have a better O-line than ours.

(01-25-2016, 01:02 PM)BritishBengal Wrote: Way to mask the truth with stating only their draft position. His weapons are Ted Ginn, a (up until this season) monumental draft bust who has hopped from team to team. Philly Brown an undrafted WR from OSU. A solid TE in Olson, but was far from elite and Jonathan Stewart, talented, but oft injured. Those are his starting weapons. Now going into the season, I think there is little doubt he had the weakest talent of any team in the NFL on paper. The fact they have flourished is undoubtedly in large part down to Cam. 


How should he react? Be happy? Or present himself to the media like every other QB? Pretend it doesn't hurt and only look forward to the next game?

(01-25-2016, 03:27 PM)GreenCornBengal Wrote: The whole Cam vs Dalton debate is a little ridiculous.

Obviously both guys have been great.

The difference is Cam is just a football player. Both are QBs, but Cam does things other players only wish they could do. It's like having a LB at the QB position.

Overall, I think Andy probably understands route concepts better and has a better feel for how to pass against certain looks, but Cam can make throws and run option plays that Andy (and other QBs) could only dream of doing.

I believe both guys will be the best QBs of their conferences in the near future.

So it can be stated like this. Andy is the better QB, but Cam is the better football player, does that make sense?

(01-25-2016, 12:48 AM)Joelist Wrote: It has to do with the lack of any moral center. Remember this is the guy who only avoided prison for felony theft because the court bent over backwards to be nice to his college. Then the NFL has done nothing but plug him nonstop since he came into the league and covered for his boorish behavior,  his temper tantrums and being a horrific role model.

(01-25-2016, 06:49 AM)Sovereign Nation Wrote: Really?  I am "very wrong". 

Then you go on to say that Cam USED to be a 1 read QB, but "got better" this season? 

He didn't get better, the OC did better by masking his biggest weakness.  He is still a 1 read QB, haven't seen any video evidence to change that.  Every once is a while, when a play breaks down, he might see an open WR late and throw to him, but that is hardly reading the defenses and going through his progressions.

When the OC draws up plays that have different primary targets for each play, it isn't so easy to read that for defenses.  For instance one play, Ginn is the primary target, the next, Kory Brown, then Ginn again, then Olsen.  This gives the illusion that Cam is reading the defenses and is spreading the ball around, but in reality it is the play call.  Once Cam holds the ball for 4 seconds, he takes off running.

I said when the talk of Cam being MVP first started, a Meme was created that compared their stats.  How accurate, who knows, however I did find this...

http://www.wsj.com/articles/newton-and-kaepernick-are-basically-the-same-player-except-for-the-record-1446593659

Now another thing to address.  The talent around Newton is far from scrub level.  Ginn was a 1st round pick and while he isn't AJ Green, he isn't Greg Little either.  Funchess may be a rookie, but he was still a highly rated WR and has played as good as Sanu did his rookie season. Olsen is a 1st round TE, and has played as such, Stewart is a 1st round RB.

OLine?- He has a 1st rounder (Oher), 2nd rounder (Kalil), 3rd rounder (Trai Turner)

Add in Ed Dickson a 3rd round TE, and guys like Crotchery (who is a vet and has played for some good teams) and Philly Brown, and he has talent around him. 

Newton is far from doing it all himself. 

Funny, those years that Carolina didn't make the playoffs, everyone said they needed a defense.  They finally get the defense, and everyone claims it is Cam that makes the Panthers successful.  If Cam was so good, then why didn't he lead his team to the playoffs and even win in them, before last year?

The Panthers have had a much easier schedule this year.  AFCS - NFCS - NFCE, plus a struggling Seahawks and GB teams, they were able to win the games in front of them, which they couldn't control, but their path was not nearly as tough as some of the other teams in the league.  Denver has actually had a tougher path to the SB.

Then both of the teams they have had to face had to travel from the west coast to play them in the playoffs?  Seriously?  It would be highly embarrassing for them if they didn't make the SB.

(01-25-2016, 04:26 PM)Sovereign Nation Wrote: Ginn developed a reputation as a WR that "couldn't hold onto the ball" due to people listening to the media.  I can't tell you how many times this season, the analyst would say that he has a problem with dropped passes, only for him to make a great catch.  Any time he dropped a pass, you would hear them get ready to pile on that he drops passes, only for him to come back and make the catch.

Does he catch everything?  No, but find me a WR who does. 

(01-24-2016, 11:35 PM)Joelist Wrote: Sorry but they are winning in spite of not because of Newton. You need to actually look at the games.

Seattle only lost because they had a terrible first quarter with multiple turnovers. And Arizona is doing the same (5 turnovers).

Scam Newton has been an embarrassment to professional sports ever since the NFL looked the other way at the criminal conduct in college.

(01-25-2016, 04:26 PM)Sovereign Nation Wrote: Seriously?  This is your take?  "His receivers are garbage"?

By your standards, Marvin Jones - Garbage.  Mo Sanu - Garbage.  AJ Green - overrated.

If you think Ginn isn't a good WR then your ability to assess talent is in question.

Miami - a terrible franchise that didn't know how to use him.  He is fast. He takes off the top of the defense.  Of course if you only send him deep with a QB that can't throw deep, his stats will reflect that. 

SF - another organization that didn't have a QB that could throw deep. 

AZ - didn't have Palmer to throw to him when he was there.

Ginn developed a reputation as a WR that "couldn't hold onto the ball" due to people listening to the media.  I can't tell you how many times this season, the analyst would say that he has a problem with dropped passes, only for him to make a great catch.  Any time he dropped a pass, you would hear them get ready to pile on that he drops passes, only for him to come back and make the catch.

Does he catch everything?  No, but find me a WR who does.  Does his speed give him an element that helps the Panthers?  Yep.  His ability to go deep means that the defenses have to account for him, because if they don't and he is Cam's primary target, you now have a guy completely wide open for Cam to throw to.

The fact that you think Funchess, a rookie WR, "looked like a bust" is very telling on how much you have bought into the Cam hype.

Stewart hasn't been as injured as you make him out to be.  Olsen is one of the top TEs in the league.

Want some proof that scheme is important to how a player performs?  Jimmy Graham, great in NO, not so great in Seattle.

Matt Cassell tore it up in NE when he covered for Brady - not so good elsewhere

Mike Wallace was good in Pittsburgh - hasn't wowed since leaving.

TJ Housh - was a favorite Bengal - then failed in Seattle and Baltimore.

I could go on.  I hope you get the point.

(01-25-2016, 05:58 PM)wolfkaosaun Wrote: He got better as his seasons progressed. Look at the difference between Kaepernick and Newton. Kaepernick is still a 1 read player and still struggled immensely. Newton has matured over the seasons.

So, you just said that Ginn is a primary target, and then Newton has to go through his progressions before he runs. You literally just said that. And if Newton only did that, defenses would have a much easier time beating him and figuring out his tendencies. He looked to another receiver? Get ready for him to run.

I'm not signing in to a site when I can look at the stats right on ESPN.

Ginn has never played like a 1st round WR. He's a bust. He's only eclipsed 500 receiving yards 3 times since 2007. And only had more than 700 yards twice. Never eclipsed  790 yards. Only reason he's had a decent season is BECAUSE of Newton. Ginn has a case of the drops too.

Devin Funchess was a tight end who converted to a WR. Almost half of his yards came in the last game.

You're putting too much emphasis on where people were drafted, rather than how they've played. Cam is the MVP because he played the best in the league. Period. And it wasn't the talent around him on offense. It was all him and Stewart. They're all pretty average receivers, and you can't even deny that. They have speed, but no one is going to out-muscle for a catch or make an incredible diving catch or be the best route runner.

It's not just Cam, but if he's not on that offense there's no way they're 15-1. Dominant defense, but Newton adds a dynamic that no one else does.

They beat a Texans team the Bengals lost to. They beat an Eagles team the Patriots lost to. They beat a Colts team the Broncos lost to. They destroyed the Cardinals and beat the Seahawks twice. Meanwhile I'm sure you were just as excited when the Bengals beat them. They were no push overs.

Don't even give the "west coast teams traveling" bull crap. Teams have to travel to the west coast too. That has little to no effect on the games in all actuality.

Cam Newton is much better than you give him credit for. He has average weapons outside of Olsen. He is that offense. Just because you think the offense is simple, doesn't mean it is. If that were the case, teams would be able to shut down Newton like they used to.

Plus, I'd rather trust other actual NFL analysts and experts rather than a Wall Street article from a guy who really only talks Fantasy Football rather than actual game tape. I mean, he talked about Adrian Peterson no longer being AD and basically being washed up: http://rotoviz.com/2015/11/adrian-peterson-is-no-longer-ad-michael-salfino-rotoviz-radio-92/

Funny how one had a 3:1 TD to INT ratio with 10 more rushing yards and became MVP. And the other led the league in rushing and tied for the most rushing TDs this season. Oh. And Newton was right behind him.

(01-25-2016, 06:18 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: The fact that you're pumping up Ted Ginn says a lot. The consensus on Ginn for the last 8 years is that he was a bust. Ginn has earned his reputation for drops. This year he had the 2nd most drops in the NFL (10) and the worst drop % of any WR with more than 30 catches:

http://www.sportingcharts.com/nfl/stats/drops/2015/
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/12/07/ted-ginns-a-ball-dropper-but-he-makes-plays-too/

Here's a funny video made by a Dolfan that highlights some of his ugliest drops:





He has terrible hands and that's a primary reason he only started 5 of 72 games from 2010 through 2014. He's been viewed as a return specialist/4th WR for 5 years now. The Panthers are only leaning on him out of necessity. He's made some plays, but he's only made a catch on 45.4% of his targets (that's an AWFUL percentage) with the worst drop % among WR's. He's not a good starting option. Period.

(01-25-2016, 06:07 PM)wolfkaosaun Wrote: Ginn had 10 drops this season. Ranking him 2nd in the NFL in drops.

However, he only had 44 receptions. Meaning he dropped a pass 10% of the time he touched the ball. Only player who caught more than 40 passes that had that had a higher drop percentage was DeMarco Murray. But he also dropped less balls.

Ginn was targeted 96 times as well.

Last year He dropped the ball 11.6% of the time.

When in an actual big time receiving role, he drops the ball.

More stats as to how average Tedd Ginn is:
http://www.sportingcharts.com/nfl/players/246804/ted-ginn-jr/#Dropped%20Passes$GameType=279588574&SeasonMax=9999&SeasonMin=1990