(02-12-2017, 04:37 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: I simply don't agree that Mike Brown wants to win as much, or more, than the fans do. 

This is an owner who watched Dave Shula go 8-24 (5-11, 3-13) in his first two seasons an decided that performance warranted a 2 year extension.

This is the same owner that tried to talk Bruce Coslet into remaining the HC even though they had lost 25 of their previous 30 games, and Coslet had flat out told him that it wasn't working.

This is a owner that still sounded defiant after firing Dick LeBeau - following a franchise worst 2 win season - insisting that things weren't as bad as fans and the media said they were.

There are plenty of other things I could list, but there's nothing about Mike Brown's actions during his tenure that screams "I want to win more than anyone". I'm sure he likes to win. I'm sure he prefers to win. But...I don't think he has ever had any great 'passion' to win. 

Instead, I think he's been incredibly stubborn in the past, wanting to do things 'his way'...even when the results were painfully obvious that his way wasn't working. Doing it 'his way' certainly seemed more important than the actual results.

This is one area where I've always given Marvin credit. He was able to come in, work closely with Katie and then Duke, in a way that demonstrated to Mike that there was a better way. That eventually led to Marvin gaining more control during negotiations after the 2010 season that led to him re-signing. But even during that process, Mike was very stubborn...to the point where Marvin actually walked away from the table at one point.

Mike's role since 2011 has been more limited, and that's a good thing, but again...nothing from 1991-2010 about Mike Brown - the owner or the GM - conveyed a message of "I want to win more than anyone". At least not in my opinion.

(02-12-2017, 01:09 PM)McC Wrote: If you want to win,  but only if you insist on doing it your way, which is different and bargain basement compared to everyone else, does that really mean you want to win?  Seems to me that, while he says he wants to win, his actions say otherwise.

(02-12-2017, 06:13 PM)SHRacerX Wrote:  Why is it the owner only when they don't win?  

(02-12-2017, 06:13 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: To be fair, a lot of what you discuss here is ancient history....a league that had no rookie wage scale.  A team drafts consensus #1 picks and they are a litany of busts (Ki-Jana, Klingler, Wilkinson, Reinard Wilson, and so on and so on) that financially cripple your team for years.  You are stuck with that ridiculous contract and you have to keep trying to find a way to make them work.  Ironically, now a team drafts a dud in the first round (Ponder, Locker, Gabbert) were all first rounders that should have killed their teams, but they can move on MUCH faster now....and right when the Bengals seemingly went on a pretty good run of drafting.

A lot of what has transpired in the Marvin Lewis Era has been positive...you can quote playoff record and prime time games, etc. but this team has matured in to a legitimate contender that has been (IMHO) very close a few times.  That is such a dramatic improvement from the 90s that the owner wanted to stick with what got him there.  

I mean, if Palmer doesn't get Kimo'd in 2005?  If Dalton doesn't break his thumb in 2015?  He assembled those teams.  He helped assemble a great coaching staff.  He has helped expand the scouting department and Tobin was a great hire.

If the Bengals had won even one Super Bowl in that time, no one would be saying a thing.  But they haven't...and it all gets dumped on him as a failure.  It should fall on his shoulders, but how many teams that win say it is because of the owner?  Isn't it usually a function of the coaches and players?  Why is it the owner only when they don't win?  

(02-12-2017, 02:50 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: 1.) So, you think Marv should have been fired in the midst of the 5 consecutive playoff appearances streak.  I was on board with replacing him with Zimmer as well, but I could also see why you wouldn't get rid of Marv.  Only the Bengal team that played the Chargers was remotely the team that they had during the season.  That game was devastating to me.  The defense was pathetic.  Gio fumbles going at the 5 yard line.  Dalton fumbled on a scramble where he dove face-first and wasn't touched...it was awful all the way around.  I wouldn't call Marv comfortable, and the Bengals had a "succession plan" in place with Hue (who I really wanted) and Cleveland swiped him from us.  


2.) I am not a fan of PA, and this is going to sound a bit like Fred, but the guy has had his good years as well.  In 2009, despite Palmer sucking ass, his line helped ignite a running game that we hadn't seen since Rudi Johnson.  I have no idea why they stuck with Ced last year, and it clearly killed them, but I don't put that 100% on PA.  I don't know who made those decisions, but it wasn't the owner.

3.) The Bengals, like the steelers, have a bubbled practice facility at a nearby college that is available to them.  

4.) Where are you getting this about refusing to guarantee money in contracts?  This owner stands behind the contracts more than any other in the NFL.  At least he honors them and doesn't cut players that are overpaid when they underperform. 

5.) The accountability discussion is a broad subject.  Is it Adam Jones, who should be let go?  Is it Marv, for not winning a playoff game?  I get this discussion and there are parts of it that really bother me...like Adam Jones.  But having a succession plan in place for Marv with Hue, I thought was perfect.  You want to honor the guy that helped transform your franchise but you want the new regime to begin to take over.  Cleveland just overwhelmed Hue, and he jumped at that chances.  I will always wonder what could have been, because I really wanted Hue and was hoping somehow Marv would still be a part of it all to get a ring.  

6.) I don't know if I would call it making excuses, but he isn't going to make knee-jerk reactions in to critical decisions.  As a matter of fact, I have never heard the man make an excuse.  He is one of the least visible owners in terms of media appearances and I am just fine with that.  The coach speaks for his team.  The owner is the one who hired him, built the staff around him, and helps decide how to build a team.  We may be frustrated with the lack of a championship, but they have a talented roster that they have assembled and this upcoming draft will be a critical strategy for this team.  

I think they have the right personnel people in place to fill some holes, and create better depth at key areas to keep this team in the mix for years to come.  

People can hate Brown all they want, and you can hate me for defending him, but I see a bright future for the Bengals and this year could be a huge step in the direction of a Championship squad. 

(02-12-2017, 09:45 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: , but I don't understand your optimism given the wealth of history that would indicate that optimism is unwarranted. 

(02-12-2017, 09:45 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: 1. Marv should've been fired after the Chargers loss. That was my take, and I'd say the majority was in the same boat with me. Including media. You have to consider his entire track record when making decisions. At the time, Marv was 0-5 in the playoffs. The prime time record was (and still is) abysmal. This offsets the overall regular season success, which isn't exactly all that in the first place. Then, after all this history of choking in big moments, he lays the biggest choke job of all. Taking a team that was 8-0 at home and losing in thoroughly convincing fashion to a team they'd beaten on the road just a few weeks prior. Fwiw, I would've also fired him after the complete lack of discipline in the 2015 playoff game, and last year's debacle. Marv has earned a pink slip 5 times now, IMO. 2008, 2010, 2013, 2015 and 2016.

2. Even in 2009, the Bengals ranked worse than 20th in yards per carry, and that was with an extra tackle, which hurt our versatility on offense. Which in turn probably didn't help Palmer's cause. The run game has ranked 20th or worse in YPC in every season since 2006...outside of a fluke season (2014). Alexander has been the one constant during that span. Pass blocking has been slightly above average by numbers, with the exception of 2012 and 2016. That said, Bodine and Ogbuehi were hand picked by PA and have been disasters. I know in my heart that a different team would've most certainly fired Paul for 2016 alone. It was that damn bad.

3. We went through this on the old boards, but the Steelers facility is nothing like the arrangement with UC. The Steelers have their own field, cafeteria, weight room and even a team library within the facility. They aren't sharing anything other than the roof. The Bengals have to get clearance each time and have no access to an NFL weight room or facilities while there. That's partly why they rarely use it.

4. I get it from years of paying attention. Look at the contracts of any Bengals player that has been resigned. The guaranteed money is low compared to their peers. For example, Andy Dalton's guaranteed money is laughably low compared to his peers. The Bengals do make up for it by being overly loyal, but that in itself hurts the team.

5. Everyone should be accountable. Unfortunately when the owner is the GM and a terrible one at that, the lack of accountability has already started at the top. Marv said himself that he wouldn't have kept himself around if he were the owner. He was half joking (I think), but it was still a sad statement. But yeah...accountability isn't complicated. If the results aren't there, you find out why and address the issue. This season it was mainly the o-line. As you can see, Paul is still here and Mike defends him. No accountability.

6. No disrespect, but it blows my mind that you think firing Marv or Paul would qualify as knee jerk. Marv has set records for playoff futility that wouldn't be possible without extreme patience and longevity. 15 years in one spot with 0 playoff wins puts Marv in a class all by himself. Alexander has been around since Dave Klinger for Pete's sake. How many years do you need to see before you think there's enough evidence to make a move? Does Marv need to be 0-15 in the playoffs? Maybe 4 losing seasons in a row? Maybe waste the primes of 2 exceptional core groups of players? You have amazing patience...Which I guess is why you side with Mike Brown. Personally, I'd like to see a playoff run before I'm in a nursing home.
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I don't "hate" you for your point of view, but I don't understand your optimism given the wealth of history that would indicate that optimism is unwarranted. Marv and co can't even sniff a playoff win, let alone a championship. I wish a single draft could fix that, but we haven't had many impact players lately and I don't think those impact players would still be impact in a playoff game. Look at the playoff performance of Geno, Green, Dalton, Gio, Dunlap, etc for proof.

(02-12-2017, 02:19 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: So, Jerry Jones made his money in oil, and the Brown family made their money because their father purchased the team way back in the late 60s.  A coach, that put together his resources and purchased his own team. 

Jerry Jones, Arthur Blank, and many other owners have other businesses that made them billionaires...that is not what we have here.  Jerry wanted a stadium that said "my penis is bigger than yours!" and is a showplace for much more than just his team.  He can afford that, the Browns can't.  I will point out that when you all make the Browns out to be money-grubbing parasites that they haven't taken a dime in naming rights, where they could likely get a pretty penny, instead honoring their father, Paul Brown.

As far as "spending significantly less than his peers" goes, can you supply that factual information?  I think he spends close to the salary cap, and honors the contracts of his players (right or wrong, you could argue either way) more than maybe any owner in the NFL.

Calling them cheap, and blaming them for the stadium tax, blah, blah, blah...is just parroting what the older generation has dumped on the Brown family for a while now.  They are angry because they see other teams winning championships and the Bengals continue to struggle.  I get it.  But their anger is misplaced.  The ownership has done a very good job creating a system that has made them competitive for what was five straight playoff appearances.  I think they will be back in the thick of it next year.  I want more, too, but I am not going to spew hatred on the ownership because they haven't won a Super Bowl.  

(02-13-2017, 10:49 AM)OrlandoBengal Wrote: Mike Brown owns an asset which, according to Forbes, is valued at $1.7 billion.  Because of revenue sharing and television contracts negotiated by the league, he is guaranteed a profit.  He can afford anything he wants.

As for being cheap, you're really going to try to argue that Mike Brown is not the definition of the word?  Some examples of his "frugality".  The man takes business meetings at Wendy's.  Prospective free agents are flown into town in coach seating.  Television cables are available for rent during training camp.  Thin, "cheap" towels that are not big enough to wrap around players in the locker room.  Gatorade consumption is monitored.  They are the only northern team who does not have an indoor practice facility.  Many colleges and even some high schools have facilities which the Bengals do not.  The man is beyond cheap.

(02-09-2017, 10:46 PM)Hoofhearted Wrote: You're missing the ultimate problem, Pat....and it's not Marvin Lewis

(02-13-2017, 10:49 AM)OrlandoBengal Wrote: Mike Brown owns an asset which, according to Forbes, is valued at $1.7 billion.  Because of revenue sharing and television contracts negotiated by the league, he is guaranteed a profit.  He can afford anything he wants.

As for being cheap, you're really going to try to argue that Mike Brown is not the definition of the word?  Some examples of his "frugality".  The man takes business meetings at Wendy's.  Prospective free agents are flown into town in coach seating.  Television cables are available for rent during training camp.  Thin, "cheap" towels that are not big enough to wrap around players in the locker room.  Gatorade consumption is monitored.  They are the only northern team who does not have an indoor practice facility.  Many colleges and even some high schools have facilities which the Bengals do not.  The man is beyond cheap.

(02-13-2017, 09:26 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: 1.) I agreed that there were times Marvin should have been let go....mine was after the SD playoff loss, but I also said I understand why Brown wants Marvin to have the opportunity to finish the job.  I wouldn't extend him.  I sure hope they don't.  This is the season where it is an absolute no-excuses for me...either you make a playoff run or you are gone.  If he is gone, who replaces him?  My guess is Guenther, and I have mixed feelings about that.  

2.) I can't stand PA either, but there are those with very different opinions of him than we have...and he does have a track record with some success.  I just hate their blocking schemes...as Lapham has stated before, line up and pound the guy in front of you!  Bodine's one supposed strength is at the point of attack, but he isn't as good on the move.  Ogbuehi gets stood up by TEs...which shows he is VERY weak in his base.  I don't think you can coach that in to him.  At least Fisher seems to be panning out....I think Ced will just be relegated to the extra TE role...Truth is, we don't know where the call to leave him out there came from...Coach, OC, PA?  It sure wasn't Mike Brown. 

3.) The indoor practice facility is just that...an indoor practice facility.  They have everything else you mentioned at Paul Brown, including a small area for indoor walk throughs...they also have expanded the weight room and upgraded the cafeteria since the original opening.  I still wish they had their own, right next to the stadium or at least spent more time indoors in the winter.  

4.) This is where I disagree with you the most.  Dalton's contract was authored and agreed upon when a lot of people weren't quite sure if he was "the guy" or not.  They made a good bet, because Dalton has far outplayed his contract.  When it comes to other players contracts, the guaranteed money is right in line with other team's deals and the Bengals are likely the only team that honors most of them throughout their time frame.  If you get drafted here, play well here, they pay you VERY WELL here...and don't look to break the deal at the first sign of injury or the player not playing up to expectation.  I applaud them for taking care of their players as they do...although it really bothers me that they have kept Adam Jones thus far.  

5.) The accountability isn't there for lack of performance, this is true.  Nugent is beloved in the organization and should have been shown the door LONG before he was eventually let go...they were hoping he would kick his way out of it, but they ultimately lost their season by waiting.  Very frustrating.  I don't know if I would fire PA based on Ced O if he wasn't the one that kept rolling him out there.  But his development of Ced has been a zero thus far.  Boling has been a very good player, drafted in the fourth round...so he deserves credit there.  Fisher looked terrible in year 1, but looks to have grasped the starters role at RT, so he deserves credit there.  But the accountability you speak of permeates the team because of Marv's stubborn approach to giving a guy like Sexy a shot when Hill looks awful, to play Vigil over a worthless Dansby, to play Clarke or Hunt instead of the plodding MJ....He always claims they need to show it in practice.  I get what he is saying but the starter shouldn't be left in a game where they are struggling....that shows a complete lack of accountability and I can't stand it.

6.) When you look at the entirety of Marv's tenure, I can see where you would take the approach of carrying the weight of seven post season failures.  I choose not to look at the past, but right now.  What happened this year?  Why?  How much of it was the responsibility of the HC?  Should he have lost his job because:

-the kicker couldn't hit anything but the post
-the second year RT couldn't block Marge Schott from getting a pack of smokes at the gas station
-the TE was injured in the Pro Bowl, and missed nearly half the season
-the star WR was injured and missed the last four games
-Zampese was a turd as an OC

These are the fault of ownership, except for the injuries to Eifert and AJ.  I look at this next season as make or break for the Bengals for so many reasons....I would have done the same thing as Brown because I think Marv gives us the best chance to win THIS YEAR.  If he doesn't make a run in the playoffs, I would start anew.  I really want a Super Bowl win, too.  I would really love to see Marvin do it, and then retire.  It would be a perfect ending as he took a team from the scrap heap to the top...in 15 years

(02-13-2017, 01:11 PM)Sled21 Wrote:

Quote:3. People shrug about the practice facility, but there's good reason why every team has one outside of the Bengals. We've had players get sick before playoff games, including Dalton getting the flu once after practicing in the snow all week. We've had players including Whit mention that it's tough to install a precise game plan in the elements.

(02-13-2017, 01:13 PM)Sled21 Wrote: You do realize you do not get the flu from being cold, right? The flu is a virus you would be more apt to catch in an indoor facility than outside in the fresh air....

(02-13-2017, 01:04 PM)Pat5775 Wrote: Ok seriously, it's been hilarious for years but now I have to ask... Did Mike ever seriously have a business meeting at Wendy's? I honestly thought that was just an exaggerated joke said around the boards for several years. It's just seems to asinine to be true. Is it even possible for someone as wealthy as Mike Brown to be white trashy enough to conduct business meetings at a fast food restaurant?

When, with whom, and (most importantly) why did this take place? 

(02-13-2017, 01:39 PM)muskiesfan Wrote: "Add to that the epic tales of the franchise’s miserliness—charging players for breakfast at the stadium; taking agents out to lunch at Wendy’s when negotiating player contracts; providing such low-quality locker room towels that in the mid-’90s, running back Ki-Jana Carter paid out of his own pocket to replace the team linens—and limited charitable involvement in the community."

"The legend of Mike Brown’s deep frugality goes beyond the stingy contract negotiations and flying free agents in on coach."

Taken from this article written in 2014: http://www.cincinnatimagazine.com/sports-3/inheritance/

Yes. Mike Brown has seriously taken agents to Wendy's to try and negotiate contracts.

(02-13-2017, 11:57 AM)Sled21 Wrote: Camp? They haven't gone to camp in years..... and maybe he likes Wendy's....

(02-13-2017, 01:39 PM)muskiesfan Wrote: "Add to that the epic tales of the franchise’s miserliness—charging players for breakfast at the stadium; taking agents out to lunch at Wendy’s when negotiating player contracts; providing such low-quality locker room towels that in the mid-’90s, running back Ki-Jana Carter paid out of his own pocket to replace the team linens—and limited charitable involvement in the community."

"The legend of Mike Brown’s deep frugality goes beyond the stingy contract negotiations and flying free agents in on coach."

Taken from this article written in 2014: http://www.cincinnatimagazine.com/sports-3/inheritance/

Yes. Mike Brown has seriously taken agents to Wendy's to try and negotiate contracts.

(02-13-2017, 02:44 PM)OrlandoBengal Wrote: It was on the first season of Hard Knocks, which was not that long ago.  Regardless it is one in a long list of examples.  I cannot find the link, but have read about him meeting agents at Wendy's.  You don't entertain clients, which is basically what you are doing when dealing with free agents, at fast food restaurants.

(02-09-2017, 10:46 PM)Hoofhearted Wrote: You're missing the ultimate problem, Pat....and it's not Marvin Lewis

(02-13-2017, 01:39 PM)muskiesfan Wrote: "Add to that the epic tales of the franchise’s miserliness—charging players for breakfast at the stadium; taking agents out to lunch at Wendy’s when negotiating player contracts; providing such low-quality locker room towels that in the mid-’90s, running back Ki-Jana Carter paid out of his own pocket to replace the team linens—and limited charitable involvement in the community."

"The legend of Mike Brown’s deep frugality goes beyond the stingy contract negotiations and flying free agents in on coach."

Taken from this article written in 2014: http://www.cincinnatimagazine.com/sports-3/inheritance/

Yes. Mike Brown has seriously taken agents to Wendy's to try and negotiate contracts.

(02-13-2017, 02:44 PM)OrlandoBengal Wrote: It was on the first season of Hard Knocks, which was not that long ago.  Regardless it is one in a long list of examples.  I cannot find the link, but have read about him meeting agents at Wendy's.  You don't entertain clients, which is basically what you are doing when dealing with free agents, at fast food restaurants.