(04-11-2021, 05:16 PM)BengalsRocker Wrote: I get what you're saying.

You know what I also get?

This team isn't a "shiny toy" drafting machine either the more recent drafts.

It's not like they haven't picked O-linemen high.

If they take Sewell it will be two years a high pick for Tackle in the past 3.

Tee Higgins ain't no slouch but he kind of surprised me honestly.  Not like Jefferson and his play in college coming out who looked like a true #1.

Mixon is what some might call a "shiny toy" pick yet it was a risk even in the 2nd round with character questions.

It really isn't absurd to consider drafting someone like Chase, Smith, Waddle as our future number one WR
(even more so that there is a QB connection with one of them)and take a T/C/G in 2nd or beyond. 

Higgins could very well have had a freshman showing, and go through a sophomore slump once defenses start targeting him.

Adding Chase doesn't necessarily rob Tee of being a powerful target.  It could quite possibly have the reverse affect.

(04-11-2021, 05:26 PM)bfine32 Wrote: We didn't take a tackle high last year, but we did take a WR with the 1st pick of te second round. 

(04-11-2021, 05:31 PM)BengalsRocker Wrote: Despite having AJ Green(which most of us didn't want to tag)the well was pretty dry in that position group.

Boyd and a slew of meh.

(04-11-2021, 05:37 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Oh, we definitely needed a WR early last year. I was just correcting the assertion that we took a tackle early. 

(04-11-2021, 05:16 PM)Whatever Wrote: 1.What I said holds true.  No QB in the league is consistently getting 4 seconds to stand back there and scan the field.  I have no idea why you still keep trying to debate this point, unless you unrealistically believe you can build some monster OL and accomplish that.

2.You lost me here.  I just showed you Brady was third in the league in Intended Air Yards(The average distance downfield that the intended target of a pass is) and you're trying to argue that he was in a dink and dunk offense.  The fact that he was 3rd in the league in Intended Air Yards disproves the theory that he was in an offense built around the short passing game.

Ben had the fastest Time to Throw in the league.  He's hitting these guys quickly before the DB has a chance to use that make up speed, as I illustrated in point 4, but you're still arguing against. Not to mention that they have a 6'4" WR that runs 4.42 on the outside helping to create space for all their other targets.

3.Reiff has been around a long time. He's going to say the right things in the media and saying he'll play anywhere is the right thing to say.  Not to mention the fact that he was probably told to say that by the Bengals so as not to tip their hands in the draft.  And again, we're not talking about his willingness to move, but if there will be a drop off in his play if he moves.  Same with Sewell.  The reality of the situation is that nobody on these boards has worked with Sewell enough to determine if he can make the move or not.  Will the OL be better if we draft Sewell?  Probably.  Will it be dramatically better?  You can't really project that when you're moving a bunch of pieces around.  

4.All our WR's are below average in the speed department by NFL standards.  That's just reality.  Sure, defenders fall down, coverages get blown, a guy sits down in a soft spot in the zone, or improvises in the scramble drill and extra time will help the QB find them.  You would rather have extra time you don't need to throw than not have enough.  However, again, it is diminishing returns if you don't have the speed to consistently take advantage of it.  NE typically had a bunch of slow WR's, but they were successful with Brady getting the ball out quick instead of holding it all day waiting for someone to uncover.

5.We're locked into a position group in 2 no matter who we take at 5. If it's Sewell, it has to be a WR in 2.  If it's Pitts or Chase, it has to be OL in 2. We have Auden Tate and Mike Thomas fighting for a starting WR job.  It can't wait til 3.

NFL Mock Draft Database has a consensus Big Board created from 30 Big Boards, 394 1st round mocks, and 493 team based mocks.  That's where I'm pulling 13 OL in the Top 50 and 20 in the Top 100 from vs 8 and 14 for WR's.  I haven't seen a single draft expert say WR is deeper than OL this year and those numbers back it up.  I've seen posters claim this, typically people who are locked in on Sewell at 5 and trying to sell people on the "you can get an immediate starter at WR on Day 3" myth.  Marshall is on average the 35th overall prospect, but is most commonly being mocked to Baltimore at 27. Either way, based on mocks and Big Board rating, it doesn't look like he'll fall to us.

(04-11-2021, 03:24 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Only on the Bengals boards will you see people hyping up late round scrubs like Armon Binns and Cody Core, then trash a guy who just had one of the best rookie seasons in team history. All so they can justify taking another WR a year after the star QB got his knee shredded due to bad blocking.

Only on Bengals boards will people rip the starting QB for needing to be "surrounded by weapons", then when we get an elite QB (potentially), they want him to be surrounded by weapons.

Only on Bengals boards will people swear by PFF, then ignore that our top WR graded out as (IIRC) the 2nd or 3rd best player on the entire team.

(04-11-2021, 06:01 PM)Whatever Wrote: That's typically two different groups, though.  The group that continually hypes scrubs like Binns, Core, and Tate is typically the group that doesn't want to prioritize WR in the draft, so they make any scrub out to be the next Marques Colton to rationalize neglecting the position in the draft in favor of whatever they determine our biggest need is(typically OL or defense).  The group that wants WR to be more of a priority is typically in the minority and sees those guys for what they are:depth guys that will be out of the league in a few years.  But it is what it is when when people start at a conclusion and try to rationalize their evaluations around arriving at their predetermined conclusion instead of evaluating dispassionately and reaching a logical conclusion based on those evaluations.  

Different eras.  In the NBA, you used to be able to compete for the title with only one superstar player.  Try that philosophy today and see how far you get.  In Andy's playoff run years, you could compete for the SB with an elite QB and decent weapons in the passing game.  You can't anymore, because the elite QB's all have All Pro WR's and/or TE's.  

Higgins and Boyd graded out at 75.9 and 75.8.  That's good, but it's not great, elite, or WR1 like some are claiming.  They're good players, but they aren't the elite All Pro WR's the teams competing for the SB have.  They are good players that play on a bad team that some are overrating due to the comparative bad play around them.  

(04-11-2021, 05:59 PM)PDub80 Wrote: Woah woah woah... Wayyyyy too much factual data backed up by sources for some of these guys.

Any way you can dumb it down to something more the speed of: Dur dur dur block, Dur dur dur "generational", Dur dur dur run, or Dur dur dur throw?

The guys chirping the most for Sewell seem to have done the absolute least amount of researching the draft, Bengals players, statistics, and correlating results/statistics. That take legitimate work and real thought.

Nice post!

(04-11-2021, 05:59 PM)PDub80 Wrote: Woah woah woah... Wayyyyy too much factual data backed up by sources for some of these guys.

Any way you can dumb it down to something more the speed of: Dur dur dur block, Dur dur dur "generational", Dur dur dur run, or Dur dur dur throw?

The guys chirping the most for Sewell seem to have done the absolute least amount of researching the draft, Bengals players, statistics, and correlating results/statistics. That take legitimate work and real thought.

Nice post!

(04-11-2021, 06:32 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: I question that great QBs need "elite" players.. great Qbs raise the game of good players.. I think Brady and Rodgers are good examples of that.. Higgins as a rookie did a very good job and Boyd has continued to put in numbers without having an elite QB... 
You ask Brady or Rodgers  if they prefer to address the Oline if it is weak over adding to a good WR core.. I thinking they are saying address the Oline... 

Sewell is the guy.. hopefully the Bengals don;t pass on him if available..

(04-11-2021, 07:42 PM)fredtoast Wrote: This is hilarious coming from the guy who has been arguing that Drew Sample is a great deep threat because of his 3.9 separation number while Justin Jefferson can never be a #1 WR because his separation number is only 2.8.

(04-11-2021, 07:56 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote:

(04-11-2021, 07:56 PM)Whatever Wrote:  I know Burrow, who you have apparently made equivalent to Brady in this case, wants a WR, not OL.  

(04-11-2021, 05:16 PM)BengalsRocker Wrote: I get what you're saying.

You know what I also get?

This team isn't a "shiny toy" drafting machine either the more recent drafts.

It's not like they haven't picked O-linemen high.

If they take Sewell it will be two years a high pick for Tackle in the past 3.

Tee Higgins ain't no slouch but he kind of surprised me honestly.  Not like Jefferson and his play in college coming out who looked like a true #1.

Mixon is what some might call a "shiny toy" pick yet it was a risk even in the 2nd round with character questions.

It really isn't absurd to consider drafting someone like Chase, Smith, Waddle as our future number one WR
(even more so that there is a QB connection with one of them)and take a T/C/G in 2nd or beyond. 

Higgins could very well have had a freshman showing, and go through a sophomore slump once defenses start targeting him.

Adding Chase doesn't necessarily rob Tee of being a powerful target.  It could quite possibly have the reverse affect.

(04-11-2021, 05:16 PM)Whatever Wrote: 1.What I said holds true.  No QB in the league is consistently getting 4 seconds to stand back there and scan the field.  I have no idea why you still keep trying to debate this point, unless you unrealistically believe you can build some monster OL and accomplish that.

2.You lost me here.  I just showed you Brady was third in the league in Intended Air Yards(The average distance downfield that the intended target of a pass is) and you're trying to argue that he was in a dink and dunk offense.  The fact that he was 3rd in the league in Intended Air Yards disproves the theory that he was in an offense built around the short passing game.

Ben had the fastest Time to Throw in the league.  He's hitting these guys quickly before the DB has a chance to use that make up speed, as I illustrated in point 4, but you're still arguing against. Not to mention that they have a 6'4" WR that runs 4.42 on the outside helping to create space for all their other targets.

3.Reiff has been around a long time. He's going to say the right things in the media and saying he'll play anywhere is the right thing to say.  Not to mention the fact that he was probably told to say that by the Bengals so as not to tip their hands in the draft.  And again, we're not talking about his willingness to move, but if there will be a drop off in his play if he moves.  Same with Sewell.  The reality of the situation is that nobody on these boards has worked with Sewell enough to determine if he can make the move or not.  Will the OL be better if we draft Sewell?  Probably.  Will it be dramatically better?  You can't really project that when you're moving a bunch of pieces around.  

4.All our WR's are below average in the speed department by NFL standards.  That's just reality.  Sure, defenders fall down, coverages get blown, a guy sits down in a soft spot in the zone, or improvises in the scramble drill and extra time will help the QB find them.  You would rather have extra time you don't need to throw than not have enough.  However, again, it is diminishing returns if you don't have the speed to consistently take advantage of it.  NE typically had a bunch of slow WR's, but they were successful with Brady getting the ball out quick instead of holding it all day waiting for someone to uncover.

5.We're locked into a position group in 2 no matter who we take at 5. If it's Sewell, it has to be a WR in 2.  If it's Pitts or Chase, it has to be OL in 2. We have Auden Tate and Mike Thomas fighting for a starting WR job.  It can't wait til 3.

NFL Mock Draft Database has a consensus Big Board created from 30 Big Boards, 394 1st round mocks, and 493 team based mocks.  That's where I'm pulling 13 OL in the Top 50 and 20 in the Top 100 from vs 8 and 14 for WR's.  I haven't seen a single draft expert say WR is deeper than OL this year and those numbers back it up.  I've seen posters claim this, typically people who are locked in on Sewell at 5 and trying to sell people on the "you can get an immediate starter at WR on Day 3" myth.  Marshall is on average the 35th overall prospect, but is most commonly being mocked to Baltimore at 27. Either way, based on mocks and Big Board rating, it doesn't look like he'll fall to us.

(04-11-2021, 06:01 PM)Whatever Wrote: That's typically two different groups, though.  The group that continually hypes scrubs like Binns, Core, and Tate is typically the group that doesn't want to prioritize WR in the draft, so they make any scrub out to be the next Marques Colton to rationalize neglecting the position in the draft in favor of whatever they determine our biggest need is(typically OL or defense).  The group that wants WR to be more of a priority is typically in the minority and sees those guys for what they are:depth guys that will be out of the league in a few years.  But it is what it is when when people start at a conclusion and try to rationalize their evaluations around arriving at their predetermined conclusion instead of evaluating dispassionately and reaching a logical conclusion based on those evaluations.  

Different eras.  In the NBA, you used to be able to compete for the title with only one superstar player.  Try that philosophy today and see how far you get.  In Andy's playoff run years, you could compete for the SB with an elite QB and decent weapons in the passing game.  You can't anymore, because the elite QB's all have All Pro WR's and/or TE's.  

Higgins and Boyd graded out at 75.9 and 75.8.  That's good, but it's not great, elite, or WR1 like some are claiming.  They're good players, but they aren't the elite All Pro WR's the teams competing for the SB have.  They are good players that play on a bad team that some are overrating due to the comparative bad play around them.  

(04-11-2021, 06:01 PM)Whatever Wrote: That's typically two different groups, though.  The group that continually hypes scrubs like Binns, Core, and Tate is typically the group that doesn't want to prioritize WR in the draft, so they make any scrub out to be the next Marques Colton to rationalize neglecting the position in the draft in favor of whatever they determine our biggest need is(typically OL or defense).  The group that wants WR to be more of a priority is typically in the minority and sees those guys for what they are:depth guys that will be out of the league in a few years.  But it is what it is when when people start at a conclusion and try to rationalize their evaluations around arriving at their predetermined conclusion instead of evaluating dispassionately and reaching a logical conclusion based on those evaluations.  

Different eras.  In the NBA, you used to be able to compete for the title with only one superstar player.  Try that philosophy today and see how far you get.  In Andy's playoff run years, you could compete for the SB with an elite QB and decent weapons in the passing game.  You can't anymore, because the elite QB's all have All Pro WR's and/or TE's.  

Higgins and Boyd graded out at 75.9 and 75.8.  That's good, but it's not great, elite, or WR1 like some are claiming.  They're good players, but they aren't the elite All Pro WR's the teams competing for the SB have.  They are good players that play on a bad team that some are overrating due to the comparative bad play around them.  

(04-11-2021, 08:37 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: It isn't absurd to consider Chase. It's also not absurd to consider letting our rookie WR who just had 900+ yards grow into the role of top guy before deciding he's incapable after 1 year.


1. Who said that our QB should consistently get 4 seconds every play? Strawman right there. What I'm saying is that a better line is more consistent at not allowing blown up plays, as well as more consistent at allowing enough time for big plays to develop.

2. The guy you're referring to (Chase Claypool) was the 49th overall pick in the 2nd round. He was 3rd in targets among Steelers WR's last year. That's exactly the type of production we need, so maybe we should copy the Steelers and take a speed guy in the 2nd. 

3. Reiff has moved around before though, so I take him at his word. As far as the drop off, anything is within the realm of possibility. Is it likely that Reiff - who has played RG before - will be worse at that spot than Alex Redmond? Nope, and you know it. It's not like he'd even be shifting to a different side.

Sewell played RT in high school. So he's familiar with the spot. Fwiw, I've never seen such a lengthy discussion about an o-lineman changing spots. Yes, it's an adjustment. Yeah some guys see some drop off...but it's not the gargantuan and ominous task you're making it out to be.

4. I'm not saying we don't need a speed guy opposite Higgins. We do. I just know Dalton started his career with solid numbers on deep throws, and that tailed off in a major way when the line fell apart (which started in 2016)...even with a prime AJ Green on the outside. That only continued under Burrow. This is a big reason why I believe the line will be more integral than speed WR...even though I do see a speed guy as a need.

5. Teams don't like locking themselves into need over BPA. That's more how fans think. If there is any player who is far more talented than the best need player, that team is 99% going to take the way more talented player. If we take Sewell, and the top WR in round 2 has a 3rd round grade, we're (hopefully) not going to reach.

So it makes more sense to wait for the position that is deeper throughout the draft, than the one that has the most talent graded as 1st-2nd rounders.



Tbh, I made a sweeping generalization in that post that can't be proven and was kinda silly. That said, what you say here is equally ridiculous. There are posters who hyped Binns and want Chase, and guys who didn't hype Binns etc, and don't want Chase, either. I was all aboard the John Ross train the year we took him, but I'm a Sewell guy this year.

It's a different era than 4-5 years ago? Why? Because the last couple SB winners had a lot of weapons? Seems kinda silly to say the league has changed based on the last couple years. New England wasn't loaded with weapons when they won in 2019 or 2017. Nor were the Eagles in 2018. We're basing all of this on the last 2 seasons??

It's not elite, but maybe we should give Higgins some time to grow before declaring him incapable of being WR1?

(04-11-2021, 07:42 PM)fredtoast Wrote: This is hilarious coming from the guy who has been arguing that Drew Sample is a great deep threat because of his 3.9 separation number while Justin Jefferson can never be a #1 WR because his separation number is only 2.8.

(04-11-2021, 08:47 PM)BengalsRocker Wrote: The funny thing is when you see a fan's mock draft with zero to little attention for WRs or TEs.

Like our TEs are fine and the WRs are good for depth.

I get that our QB needs some O-line help, but having a draft with all O-line and some DTs/DEs/S/CB  makes me wonder what people are thinking.

(04-11-2021, 06:01 PM)Whatever Wrote: Different eras.  

(04-11-2021, 06:01 PM)Whatever Wrote:  the elite QB's all have All Pro WR's and/or TE's.