(04-01-2020, 02:27 PM)samhain Wrote: I'm a huge fan of Baun as a chess piece for the defense, but I really think they'll target offense now that FA has set them up on all 3 levels of the D.

I'm no longer high on Shenault.  I like him as a player, but his pre-existing injury issues are a big red flag.  I'm really weary of an already banged up WR after watching Green and Ross be largely unavailable for 2 years.  

Ruiz is intriguing.  I'd rather get him in 3, but he seems like a guy that was projected in 3-5 in early mocks that is becoming more of a 2nd round guy as the draft nears.  I wouldn't be shocked to see him slide into the 1st.

Reagor is the prospect that throws me off.  He's going at the end of 1 in most drafts, but occaisionally slips into the 2nd.  If he does, can we pass up that kind of speed.  I think we need another burner at WR.  I still have zero faith in AJ and Ross to play 10 games.  It's time to start looking for a long term number 1 WR for Burrow.

(04-01-2020, 10:49 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: Wow, Nate!  I think you were a little hard on the beaver!  

Queen didn't have the proverbial light come on until he saw an increase in his playing time.  It isn't a slam to say he couldn't win a job over Devin White.  I wouldn't say he went from a 6th or 7th rounder once he started playing more.  He flashed his abilities throughout the year and the needle kept pointing up the more he played.  I wouldn't say that Delpit's talent was descending, but he clearly didn't play his best in the biggest moment (the championship game) as Queen did.  Queen's performance going sideline to sideline and stuffing Lawrence (who was winning games like the OSU game with his legs more than his arm) looked very attractive to me in terms of what he will see with Lamar Jackson. 

Queen is also one of the most coverage-capable LBs in the draft...much more so than Murray.  That is what we need next to Pratt.  

I don't think he will be there, but if he is, I think Queen is the pick.  

(04-01-2020, 04:25 PM)Whatever Wrote: Uh, no.

Queen was still graded as a 6th/7th rounder after the SEC title game.  He jumped only after the CFP.

Did you watch much Clemson?  The NCG was actually Lawrence's 3rd highest rushing total of the season, and that total includes 2 sacks.  OSU was the only team he really ran wild on all year.  Lawrence is like Burrow.  They can run, but they're pass first.  Lawrence's failure in the NCG was in the passing game, where he was held to season lows in Completion % and TD's.  It was not Queen stuffing him in the run game.

(04-01-2020, 10:49 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: Wow, Nate!  I think you were a little hard on the beaver!  

Queen didn't have the proverbial light come on until he saw an increase in his playing time.  It isn't a slam to say he couldn't win a job over Devin White.  I wouldn't say he went from a 6th or 7th rounder once he started playing more.  He flashed his abilities throughout the year and the needle kept pointing up the more he played.  I wouldn't say that Delpit's talent was descending, but he clearly didn't play his best in the biggest moment (the championship game) as Queen did.  Queen's performance going sideline to sideline and stuffing Lawrence (who was winning games like the OSU game with his legs more than his arm) looked very attractive to me in terms of what he will see with Lamar Jackson. 

Queen is also one of the most coverage-capable LBs in the draft...much more so than Murray.  That is what we need next to Pratt.  

I don't think he will be there, but if he is, I think Queen is the pick.  

(03-31-2020, 09:27 PM)BigRed75 Wrote: This is one of my favorite items to discuss. There are definitely a handful of guys who can slip into round 2 that shouldn’t. The guy I sprint to the podium for that no one had mentioned is Tee Higgins. This dude looked like AJ Green all over again throughout his college career. Yet, I see him sliding down (by the so called experts) and some saying he might not go until round 3.  Can anyone tell me why? Don’t just say it’s because he wouldn’t run at the combine. He’s got plenty of game film that tells me he can be a #1 receiver in the league.

(04-01-2020, 06:05 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: You are like Fred Jr, the constant contrarian.  When I said "in the biggest moment, the championship game", I meant the National Championship Game, not the conference title.  I thought when I said "biggest moment" that might have clued you in on which championship game, but my fault, I should have been more specific. 

And you are saying he only jumped from 6th/7th rounder after the National Championship game to a fringe first rounder?  I don't believe that.  If you can show a source dated just before the National Championship Game that projected Queen as a 6th or 7th rounder, I would be amazed.

And yes, I did watch much Clemson  .  He had to run against OSU and LSU because his receivers were not wide open as they were all season against lesser competition.  Lawrence beat OSU to the tune of 107 yards on 16 rushes.  He ran 10 times for 49 yards against LSU, with one run of 17 yards.  Take that away and he had 32 yards on 9 carries.  That is pretty shut down considering what he did against a similar defense in Ohio State.  The fact that Lawrence also struggled against LSU further proves the ability of Queen, because he was dragging in coverage a great deal.  His coverage ratings, in fact, are far superior to that of Murray.

But it's ok if you don't see it.  33 NFL teams and their GMs do...I am hoping we are the ones that get him.  

(04-01-2020, 04:25 PM)Whatever Wrote: Uh, no.

Queen was still graded as a 6th/7th rounder after the SEC title game.  He jumped only after the CFP.

Did you watch much Clemson?  The NCG was actually Lawrence's 3rd highest rushing total of the season, and that total includes 2 sacks.  OSU was the only team he really ran wild on all year.  Lawrence is like Burrow.  They can run, but they're pass first.  Lawrence's failure in the NCG was in the passing game, where he was held to season lows in Completion % and TD's.  It was not Queen stuffing him in the run game.

(04-01-2020, 03:14 PM)McC Wrote: How weird is it that guys are moving up and down draft boards even though none of them have played in two or three months AND no one can even make team visits?

(04-01-2020, 09:09 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: I have warmed up to Queen but still he has a lack of production. Just like Baun, Murray and used to like Delpit better than 
Queen before watching more film. With us getting Vonn Bell I am not as big on getting Delpit as I once was. We can get your
guys Dugger or Chinn later on. Would be fine with Queen just hopes he gains some muscle and becomes a better tackler.

(04-01-2020, 10:58 PM)Whatever Wrote: Well, I don't have a bunch of old big boards archived.  I can go back through all our old board Draft Challenges, though.  I can tell you not one person picked him in November or December, when he was regularly available in the 7th.  Only one person picked him in January and that was Nati Bengals who took him in the 4th on 1/28, long after the CFP.  

Interestingly enough, in the November thread, you posted your December mock including this...

"3: R3P1

LB JACOB PHILLIPS
LSU

Big, fast, rangy...Ideal LB for this team.  Of course, I would want a veteran FA added to the LB corps as well.  "


If you thought Queen was this great prospect, why did you take Phillips over him?    We know from Nati's mock that you could have gotten Queen at least a round later at that point in time.  Would you take Phillips at 33 if Queen is gone?  You seem to believe he's the better prospect.


BTW, you can go back and see numerous drafts with guys like Denzel Mims and Zack Baun going in the 7th in November and December if you think it's impossible for Queen to get bumped that far.


Oh, ok, if you don't count his best run they kinda shut him down, but not really.  You realize he had a 67 yard run against OSU, right?  So by your criteria, if we take away his best run against OSU, he had 40 yards on 15 rushes, which is a lot worse than 32 yards on 9 carries.  I'm sure you also realize that in college stats, sacks count as rushes for the QB.  So, for example, in the LSU game Lawrence was sacked twice for -11 yards, so his actual runs account for 8 carries for 60 yards.


There are only 32 NFL team's, not 33.  You also have no clue what their big boards look like or what kinds of grades they have on the guy.  Quit with the hype man routine.

(04-02-2020, 09:25 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: So, when I asked who had him ranked as a 6th or 7th rounder before the NCG, you were referring to people doing mock drafts, not actual scouts?  Ok, there goes that credibility.  And yes, I had Phillips in the 3rd round and he could still very well go there.  In fact, he is an interesting argument because he is kind of the opposite of Queen where he had another full year of production and was the most productive player on the team in 2019.  He is also "very quiet and not a natural leader" while Queen is more vocal and firey.  The biggest thing I can say about the two of them other than their personalities is Queen has the better coverage ability and route recognition.  He also played better as the season wore on and had his best games against the best competition.  Phillips was said to have declined in production as his competition level increased.

Maybe it is a bit of my own personal demons, watching some guys disappear against the steelers.  I remember that Reggie Nelson always seemed to have some of his best games against them.  WJIII, too.  I want players that shine on the biggest stage and play their best in the biggest moments.  Queen fits that bill best of what could be available to the Bengals in Rd 2.  Having him next to Pratt in Nickel looks very appealing to me.  

And btw, Lawrence was sacked by OSU 3 times for 25 yards, so actually by your comparison of his "actual run count" of 8 rushes for 60 yards not being a good job handling him as a rusher, those yards added to his Ohio State game numbers calculates as 13 for 132 yards, or an average of 10.1 yards per carry, while LSU held him to 7.5 ypc.  Again, far superior to OSU, who is far from shabby on defense.  

Lastly, as far as quitting the "hype man" routine.  Please STFU.  We are here to debate and discuss players that can improve this team.  I think that is Queen.  He is a fringe first round talent and we have a real shot of getting him.  It is very realistic and not hype at all when you consider where the so-called experts have him projected.  If you disagree with that, fine.  But that doesn't mean I can't discuss him or project him to the Bengals in Rd 2. 

(04-02-2020, 10:54 AM)Whatever Wrote: That's a nice try, but we all know that the big boards on the draft sims are based on those sites prospect rankings.

Quit ducking the question.  Would you take Phillips at 33?  If you thought Queen was better all along, why did you take Phillips instead?


Queen played very well in the CFP.  However, he did very little all year up to that point.  You have to win a bunch of regular season games to get to that spot.  I want guys that thrive under pressure, too, but I want them to be good-great all the time.  I don't want guys that are mediocre 13 out of 16 games.  Which leads us to another point.  Queen wasn't even considered the best LB on his team going into the CFP.  In a loaded defense with guys like Stingley, Delpit, etc. how much focus do you really think OU and Clemson put on neutralizing Patrick Queen?  Props to him for making plays,but there's no way he was hugely focused on.

8 carries for 60 yards is not shutting the QB down in the run game.  Second, trying to attribute it solely to one player like you did is just dumb.  Third, Lawrence did not beat a bunch of teams with his legs, as you originally claimed.  Fourth, cherry picking one game as an example and then trying to exclude individual plays on top of that goes to show how flimsy your argument is.  Fifth, nobody is saying that LSU didn't defend Lawrence better in the run game than OSU.  I was illustrating just how much you can manipulate statistics by selectively excluding data like you were.  Sixth, if you were a DC and just watched a QB run wild, you would probably focus on it more in your game plan than a team who hadn't seen him do anything remotely close to that all year.
.
The "hype man" comment was solely in response to your "All 33 teams..." line.  You have no idea what teams' boards look like and where they have him rated.  To claim something like that is purely just being a hype man.  If you can show me all 32 teams boards and they all have Queen in the 1st/early 2nd range, I'll gladly take it back.

(04-02-2020, 12:40 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: Welcome to the banned list.  Trying to discuss Queen at #33 with you becomes an exercise in dancing in all sorts of directions.  Where did I have Phillips at #33?  That was the first pick in the 3rd round.  I like Queen based on how he improved as his season went along and how he played his best at the highest level.  As far as selecting any specific data sets to try and prove my point, all you had to do was watch the game.  

from PFF (people that actually get paid to evaluate players):  

"Queen qualifies as one of the biggest breakout players in college football after playing only 255 snaps in his career prior to 2019. He was a player who certainly made a name for himself with his play down the stretch as he racked up nine stops in the College Football Playoffs. Queen is very slightly built at his listed 6-1, 227 pounds and more closely resembles a defensive back than a linebacker at this point. Such is the way the NFL game is going though. Unlike some of the other undersized backers on this list, Queen isn’t quite as long or as explosive at this point to explain it away.

While he may not be a complete linebacker, Queen excels in the right area: coverage. He is about as smooth as it gets at the position and only allowed 24-34 targets for 186 yards and 12 first downs last season. Those are as good a collection of stats as you’ll see in coverage at the linebacker position in this draft."


And that is exactly what I want for the Bengals.  A speedy OLB that can cover.  


Don't bother to reply unless you like to continue to piss in the wind.  

(04-02-2020, 09:03 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: One other thing about Queen beyond the speed and coverage ability is that he is still an ascending talent.  Murray has been a starter for four years and still has not worked out some of his coverage and diagnosis issues.  The Bengals like when they believe they are getting someone that is not a "finished product" but is still ascending and could potentially have a really high ceiling.  

(04-02-2020, 04:42 PM)Whatever Wrote: I seriously doubt I'm getting banned for disagreeing about a prospect in the draft forum.  

If I wouldn't have to call you out on complete made up BS, then watch you try and pull some fuzzy math to justify it, you wouldn't have to dance in a bunch of directions.  Seriously, you're trying to make it out like it was some Herculean effort solely by Queen to hold a QB who averages 24.7 rushing yards a game at 4.5 ypc to 49 rushing yards at 4.9 ypc.  

So basically, you had no idea who Queen even was when you took Phillips and you jumped him up over Phillips based solely on the CFP.  You think a guy is one of the top LB's in the whole draft that you didn't even think was the best LB on his team a few months ago on the basis of 2 games.

He may statistically be one of the top cover LB's in this class.  It's a bad LB class, though, and those aren't exactly amazing numbers.  Queen is allowing completions on over 70% o his targets and an opposing passer rating of 81.25.  The high completion % is of concern because NFL talent is going to do a lot more damage than college guys.  Also, last year Bynes only allowed a 47.4 passer rating when targeted last year, so I don't see subbing him out for a guy who allowed 81.25 in college as being a big upgrade.  

Oh, so you're butthurt because you've got a hard on for Queen and feel the need to jump to his defense, but you can't debate worth a damn?  I'm sure you can find a nice echo chamber on an LSU board.

(04-02-2020, 08:43 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Wow, that is a high opposing passer rating against Queen and a high completion percentage...

(04-02-2020, 08:40 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: I definitely like Queen's upside for sure.