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+--- Thread: Pollack "Comfortable with all those guys" (/thread-35032.html)
RE: Pollack "Comfortable with all those guys" - Frank Booth - 03-04-2023
(03-04-2023, 12:40 AM)sandwedge Wrote: So we take your word for it?
word
RE: Pollack "Comfortable with all those guys" - BoomerFan - 03-04-2023
(03-02-2023, 01:13 PM)Soonerpeace Wrote: Watch what they do with Trayveon Williams. If they resign him cheap they won’t draft one. But I agree it’s a possibility.
I still don't understand what happened to Chris Evans. Maybe he doesn't have the explosiveness to be a part of this conversation?
So who should we target in FA for RT? I like Jermaine Eluemunor for 6 million a year (maybe 3 year deal)? He plays in a division where he is facing tough defensive fronts (Chris Jones w/KC, Joey Bosa w/San Diego, and whatever Denver had). He can also play G if needed. You can sign him even if you are unable to cut LC. He would give you depth on a line that desperately needs it. Other than re-signing Burrow, offensive line is the most important thing for this team to do.
Otherwise your best bet is paying ~15 million for Mike McGlinchey or Jawaan Taylor. But you not only have to spend a lot, you have to do it right away in FA. Not really the Bengals style and I am not sure how they would make that work financially.
Pollack "Comfortable with all those guys" - Bronxbengal - 03-04-2023
(03-03-2023, 04:20 PM)Soonerpeace Wrote: I get coach speak but the coaching staff is much happier with this roster than “Jungle Noise” LOL.
Say what! There are so much better talent evaluators (in their eyes) in Jungle Noise than Duke Tobin and Frank Pollack. They are so much better they win their office Fantasy Football leagues every year and their mock drafts are much better than anything the Bengals organization can ever do. Lol
I trust Frank Pollacks and Duke Tobins opinion over any poster on this board.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
RE: Pollack "Comfortable with all those guys" - Soonerpeace - 03-04-2023
(03-04-2023, 09:16 AM)Bronxbengal Wrote: Say what! There are so much better talent evaluators (in their eyes) in Jungle Noise than Duke Tobin and Frank Pollack. They are so much better they win their office Fantasy Football leagues every year and their mock drafts are much better than anything the Bengals organization can ever do. Lol
I trust Frank Pollacks and Duke Tobins opinion over any poster on this board.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
I’ll be the first ( okay not the first) to acknowledge they’ve done a piss poor job in developing and evaluating. I’m not happy with Pollack. I think he’s too old school. Who’s to blame for having to go to a gap scheme from a zone blocking scheme in the middle of the season? Not criticizing the decision just how hard is it from film to know your units best scheme for success? Collins is all on Pollack. He wanted him. Not practicing was problem enough. Jonah Williams has been average. I like the idea of resigning Hurst and drafting a tackle in round 1. I’m in favor of swapping picks with Detroit in round one at 18 plus give them our second. Go get a sure fire tackle or if Hurst doesn’t resign get Mayer. Then I’d go with a FA tackle of modest money. Throw numbers at the spot. Fix it.
RE: Pollack "Comfortable with all those guys" - Synric - 03-04-2023
(03-04-2023, 09:16 AM)Bronxbengal Wrote: Say what! There are so much better talent evaluators (in their eyes) in Jungle Noise than Duke Tobin and Frank Pollack. They are so much better they win their office Fantasy Football leagues every year and their mock drafts are much better than anything the Bengals organization can ever do. Lol
I trust Frank Pollacks and Duke Tobins opinion over any poster on this board.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
The difference between "board members" and NFL GMs/Coaches is their data as talent evaluators is on full display. If a GM somehow had a 50% draft hit rate he would be the greatest talent evaluator in NFL history...only 50%
RE: Pollack "Comfortable with all those guys" - Sled21 - 03-04-2023
(03-03-2023, 02:55 PM)bfine32 Wrote: You obviously got me confused with someone else. I've never said Volson came from a small school and I too supported him against folks saying he can do nothing because of where/when drafted. It's just that now I've seen behind the curtain. Cordel Volson is easily upgradable and I hope we have interior oline toward the top of the draft board
I wasn't directing that specifically at you.
RE: Pollack "Comfortable with all those guys" - Essex Johnson - 03-04-2023
(03-03-2023, 07:36 PM)samhain Wrote: Not sure how this really pertains to Pollack. Collins is a bust largely, if not entirely due to a chronic back issue and a season-ending knee injury. Pollack isn't the team physician.
When Collins was healthy, he and Cappa were terrific in the run game. I get that this isn't a run first offense, but the offense as a whole was looking unstoppable during the stretch when those two were blasting open holes for Perine and Mixon.
To be honest, I agree that Pollack is doing a questionable job at best. I just disagree with Collins being a symptom of that.
Well it pertains to the thread of he has faith in his group, and I did not have faith in collins co.ing in and he underperformed I the season
RE: Pollack "Comfortable with all those guys" - bengals1969 - 03-04-2023
(03-04-2023, 02:32 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: Well it pertains to the thread of he has faith in his group, and I did not have faith in collins co.ing in and he underperformed I the season
The board wasn't all that happy with Carmen when he was drafted( I was). The board was thrilled with Collins signing(I was meh), if healthy he'd start in 2023. Given age and size he's questionable in 2023. Cappa and Karras were terrific signings. Turns out Carmen is a pretty good steal. Volson has far exceeded expectations. So the Bengals coaches actually have done well with their OnLine starters.
They lack quality depth, that's a huge issue and that's where the coaches have fallen short. For two straight seasons the O Line has cost the team the Super Bowl win or a chance to play. So assuming Carmen shifts yet again to RT the starters are set. Then use the draft to get a guy to push Jonah in 2023 and replace him in 2024. Then use the 4th round and pick for a guard/center.
RE: Pollack "Comfortable with all those guys" - Frank Booth - 03-04-2023
“Carmen is a pretty good steal”
Imagine actually believing this. Takes a lot of brain power to buy into that narrative. I’m impressed
RE: Pollack "Comfortable with all those guys" - Nate (formerly eliminate08) - 03-04-2023
(03-02-2023, 11:37 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: With regards to Williams, Volson, Karras, and Cappa. Seems like the only uncertainty is at RT, at least that he's letting be publicly known. Seems like we should be looking for the Bengals to be drafting a Tackle (or two?) in the upcoming draft.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl/bengals-starting-offensive-line-comes-into-focus-on-day-two-of-nfl-combine/ar-AA18703T
The only surprising part to me was pretty much stating that Jonah will not move to RT, where he has played before and stating that
Carman is in play at RT where he hasn't played before and struggled at the right side at RG. This is a bit head scratching to me from
Pollack and makes me start to agree with others that we might need to start to think about a new OL coach again.
The only plan seems to be to draft a RT like Darnell Wright. I am fine with this if he falls but if for some reason he doesn't? What is
the backup plan? Cannot count on LC being ready at all after that injury.
It is early in the Offseason, now would be the time to think about moving Jonah who has played RT. Giving him the entire Offseason
to move shouldn't be nearly as hard as moving Carman from the place he just played well at to a spot he has NEVER played.
RE: Pollack "Comfortable with all those guys" - Essex Johnson - 03-04-2023
(03-04-2023, 04:25 PM)bengals1969 Wrote: The board wasn't all that happy with Carmen when he was drafted( I was). The board was thrilled with Collins signing(I was meh), if healthy he'd start in 2023. Given age and size he's questionable in 2023. Cappa and Karras were terrific signings. Turns out Carmen is a pretty good steal. Volson has far exceeded expectations. So the Bengals coaches actually have done well with their OnLine starters.
They lack quality depth, that's a huge issue and that's where the coaches have fallen short. For two straight seasons the O Line has cost the team the Super Bowl win or a chance to play. So assuming Carmen shifts yet again to RT the starters are set. Then use the draft to get a guy to push Jonah in 2023 and replace him in 2024. Then use the 4th round and pick for a guard/center.
I was not happy with the signing so im not part of that group, Carmen has still underperformed for his 2nd round pick , yes played well enough late in year but this season will tell if he is playing to the level of his draft pick.. agree Volson was a pleasant surprise his rookie year, it in the end we have had a sub par overall performances with our line under Pollacks tenure. and we have spent a good amount of capital in FA and draft over the past 3 years.. we have to good improvement this year for me to feel he is the right Oline coach for us
RE: Pollack "Comfortable with all those guys" - casear2727 - 03-04-2023
(03-03-2023, 12:24 AM)Whatever Wrote: If the OL sucks, it's because Pollack can't develop talent. I mean, seriously, how can Pollack bang his fist on the table for a starting RT? They drafted Carman as the RT of the future, then went out and signed Pollack's boy Collins. If Pollack has to slam his fist on the table for a new RT this year, then he exposes himself as being totally incompetent.
I must have missed this plan, where was this mentioned? It certainly seemed Carmen immediately went to guard.....?
RE: Pollack "Comfortable with all those guys" - casear2727 - 03-04-2023
(03-04-2023, 04:25 PM)bengals1969 Wrote: The board wasn't all that happy with Carmen when he was drafted( I was). The board was thrilled with Collins signing(I was meh), if healthy he'd start in 2023. Given age and size he's questionable in 2023. Cappa and Karras were terrific signings. Turns out Carmen is a pretty good steal. Volson has far exceeded expectations. So the Bengals coaches actually have done well with their OnLine starters.
(03-04-2023, 04:48 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: “Carmen is a pretty good steal”
Imagine actually believing this. Takes a lot of brain power to buy into that narrative. I’m impressed
How in the world can anyone think Carmen was a steal as a 2nd round pick chosen before future All Pros, while Carmen cannot beat out ANY player at any positon on the oline?
I like Volson, but not sure how he exceeded expectations? Did everyone expect him to be rated below #66 among guards, and that 65 rating is far exceeding those expectations? He did beat out that "pretty good steal" 2nd rounder, but his PFF scores are not good, not even average, and must improve this season.
You sound like you may be the official Bengals Oline evaluator of the last decade. Without checking, I would venture that we are the absolute worst in drafting olinemen in the last 10 years or so.
RE: Pollack "Comfortable with all those guys" - casear2727 - 03-04-2023
(03-04-2023, 08:21 AM)BoomerFan Wrote: I still don't understand what happened to Chris Evans. Maybe he doesn't have the explosiveness to be a part of this conversation?
I never liked the Chris Evans draft choice from day one, but then again I was questioned by some UM people immediately after we took him.
Why would we draft a player who started only 5 games, in 5 years of college, with only 30 some carries his last 2 seasons? And in the 6th round? It is so frustrating watching KC win the SB with a 7th round RB, who had a ton of starts and carries in college. There are so many of these RBs every year.
KC is not tiers above us in drafting, they are stratospheres above us.
The craziest thing of all is that we could have had many of their key players:
We chose John Ross over Mahomes
We chose Carmen over Creed Humphrey
We chose 6 draft picks over Trey Smith.
We could have signed Thuney before KC.
No doubt an excuse can be made for any of these...
And sure our #1 and #5 draft picks are great. We have done well at the top of the 2nd round. But are these really unexpected by any team?
We have hit on some 2nd tier players that have done well in free agency.
But we have been horrendous in oline drafting for a decade.
Outside of the #65 rated guard (Volson), and one good year TE (CJ) our draft picks from #4-7 have been beyond terrible since... 2013 and Rex Burkhead? SMH.
Our cute and quaint smallest scouting department in the league is bottom tier when it comes to the draft.
Sorry for the rant....
RE: Pollack "Comfortable with all those guys" - Nate (formerly eliminate08) - 03-04-2023
(03-04-2023, 09:17 PM)casear2727 Wrote: I never liked the Chris Evans draft choice from day one, but then again I was questioned by some UM people immediately after we took him.
Why would we draft a player who started only 5 games, in 5 years of college, with only 30 some carries his last 2 seasons? And in the 6th round? It is so frustrating watching KC win the SB with a 7th round RB, who had a ton of starts and carries in college. There are so many of these RBs every year.
KC is not tiers above us in drafting, they are stratospheres above us.
The craziest thing of all is that we could have had many of their key players:
We chose John Ross over Mahomes
We chose Carman over Creed Humphrey
We chose 6 draft picks over Trey Smith.
We could have signed Thuney before KC.
No doubt an excuse can be made for any of these...
And sure our #1 and #5 draft picks are great. We have done well at the top of the 2nd round. But are these really unexpected by any team?
We have hit on some 2nd tier players that have done well in free agency.
But we have been horrendous in oline drafting for a decade.
Outside of the #65 rated guard (Volson), and one good year TE (CJ) our draft picks from #4-7 have been beyond terrible since... 2013 and Rex Burkhead? SMH.
Our cute and quaint smallest scouting department in the league is bottom tier when it comes to the draft.
Sorry for the rant....
Cannot disagree, just had to spell Carman's name right. He at the very least earned that late in the year and in the Playoffs.
RE: Pollack "Comfortable with all those guys" - Soonerpeace - 03-05-2023
(03-04-2023, 09:17 PM)casear2727 Wrote: I never liked the Chris Evans draft choice from day one, but then again I was questioned by some UM people immediately after we took him.
Why would we draft a player who started only 5 games, in 5 years of college, with only 30 some carries his last 2 seasons? And in the 6th round? It is so frustrating watching KC win the SB with a 7th round RB, who had a ton of starts and carries in college. There are so many of these RBs every year.
KC is not tiers above us in drafting, they are stratospheres above us.
The craziest thing of all is that we could have had many of their key players:
We chose John Ross over Mahomes
We chose Carmen over Creed Humphrey
We chose 6 draft picks over Trey Smith.
We could have signed Thuney before KC.
No doubt an excuse can be made for any of these...
And sure our #1 and #5 draft picks are great. We have done well at the top of the 2nd round. But are these really unexpected by any team?
We have hit on some 2nd tier players that have done well in free agency.
But we have been horrendous in oline drafting for a decade.
Outside of the #65 rated guard (Volson), and one good year TE (CJ) our draft picks from #4-7 have been beyond terrible since... 2013 and Rex Burkhead? SMH.
Our cute and quaint smallest scouting department in the league is bottom tier when it comes to the draft.
Sorry for the rant....
Your premise is right but your examples aren’t free of debate. Absolutely correct KC has drafted exceptionally better than us and a bunch of teams. Lots of teams missed on Mahomes. Lots of teams missed on Creed. By the same token lots of teams missed on Tee Higgins. Lots of teams missed on some free agents we’ve signed. You’ve alluded to some.
But really the bottom line and let’s cut to the chase. The offensive line developing and evaluating and lack thereof in drafting and securing free agents has been pathetic. I’m sure there’s a lot of reasons for it but it’s hurt. Winning a Super Bowl needs a lot things to succeed. We came ridiculously close last year and this years champ the Chiefs barely got by us . I’m not a buyer in the KC running backs success is tied to them. It’s their OL. We’ve got a lot going for the franchise right now. But the OL got us 10 straight wins and the team has been in the top 4 in the NFL two straight years. We saw a few years ago KC fall short with a poor OL. They fixed it and yet have lost 3-4 from us. It’s hard.
RE: Pollack "Comfortable with all those guys" - Isaac Curtis: The Real #85 - 03-05-2023
I may pick a nit with the 4th-7th, stuff.
2022: 4: Volson, 5: T. Anderson, 7: Gunter.
1 low end starter + 2 guys who stuck.
2021: 4: C. Sample, Shelvin, Smith; 5: McPherson, 6: T. Hill, Evans, 7: Hubert
Shelvin was a whiff and Smith perhaps as well (but he was a project). But Sample and McPherson turned out well, Hill & Evans are still here, and Hubert got hurt. 5/7 still here.
2020: 4: ADG; 5: Kareem; 6: Adeniji; 7: Bailey
ADG & Bailey have worked out well. Adeniji adequate. Kareem made that great play vs Denver but kept getting hurt. All 4 stuck initially and 3/4 are still here.
2019: 4: Finley, Wren, Jordan; 6: T. Williams, Davis, Anderson; 7: Brown.
OK, that was bad.
RE: Pollack "Comfortable with all those guys" - Isaac Curtis: The Real #85 - 03-05-2023
Rounds 1-3, ZT era:
2022: 1: D. Hill, 2: CTB; 3: Carter.
2021: 1: Chase; 2: Carman; 3: Ossai
2020: 1: Burrow; 2: Higgins; 3: L. Wilson
2019: 1: J. Williams; 2: D. Sample; 3: Pratt
Rd1: 2 HRs in Burrow & Chase. A solid pick in Jonah. Too early to tell on Dax Hill. 3/3 with 1 Incomplete.
Rd2: One HR in Higgins. CTB looks solid (at worst). Carman looked like a whiff at guard, but at LT/RT could salvage something and does flash starter level talent. D. Sample was a big panic reach. 2/3 with 1 incomplete.
Rd 3: 2 HRs in Wilson & Pratt. Ossai gotcset back with the injury but looks solid (at worst). Carter was bad early but improved. 3/3 with 1 incomplete.
RE: Pollack "Comfortable with all those guys" - casear2727 - 03-05-2023
(03-05-2023, 12:01 PM)Soonerpeace Wrote: Your premise is right but your examples aren’t free of debate. Absolutely correct KC has drafted exceptionally better than us and a bunch of teams. Lots of teams missed on Mahomes. Lots of teams missed on Creed. By the same token lots of teams missed on Tee Higgins. Lots of teams missed on some free agents we’ve signed. You’ve alluded to some.
But really the bottom line and let’s cut to the chase. The offensive line developing and evaluating and lack thereof in drafting and securing free agents has been pathetic. I’m sure there’s a lot of reasons for it but it’s hurt. Winning a Super Bowl needs a lot things to succeed. We came ridiculously close last year and this years champ the Chiefs barely got by us . I’m not a buyer in the KC running backs success is tied to them. It’s their OL. We’ve got a lot going for the franchise right now. But the OL got us 10 straight wins and the team has been in the top 4 in the NFL two straight years. We saw a few years ago KC fall short with a poor OL. They fixed it and yet have lost 3-4 from us. It’s hard.
(03-05-2023, 12:24 PM)Isaac Curtis: The Real #85 Wrote: I may pick a nit with the 4th-7th, stuff.
2022: 4: Volson, 5: T. Anderson, 7: Gunter.
1 low end starter + 2 guys who stuck.
2021: 4: C. Sample, Shelvin, Smith; 5: McPherson, 6: T. Hill, Evans, 7: Hubert
Shelvin was a whiff and Smith perhaps as well (but he was a project). But Sample and McPherson turned out well, Hill & Evans are still here, and Hubert got hurt. 5/7 still here.
2020: 4: ADG; 5: Kareem; 6: Adeniji; 7: Bailey
ADG & Bailey have worked out well. Adeniji adequate. Kareem made that great play vs Denver but kept getting hurt. All 4 stuck initially and 3/4 are still here.
2019: 4: Finley, Wren, Jordan; 6: T. Williams, Davis, Anderson; 7: Brown.
OK, that was bad.
(03-05-2023, 02:24 PM)Isaac Curtis: The Real #85 Wrote: Rounds 1-3, ZT era:
2022: 1: D. Hill, 2: CTB; 3: Carter.
2021: 1: Chase; 2: Carman; 3: Ossai
2020: 1: Burrow; 2: Higgins; 3: L. Wilson
2019: 1: J. Williams; 2: D. Sample; 3: Pratt
Rd1: 2 HRs in Burrow & Chase. A solid pick in Jonah. Too early to tell on Dax Hill. 3/3 with 1 Incomplete.
Rd2: One HR in Higgins. CTB looks solid (at worst). Carman looked like a whiff at guard, but at LT/RT could salvage something and does flash starter level talent. D. Sample was a big panic reach. 2/3 with 1 incomplete.
Rd 3: 2 HRs in Wilson & Pratt. Ossai gotcset back with the injury but looks solid (at worst). Carter was bad early but improved. 3/3 with 1 incomplete.
Sooner:
I disagree that lots of of teams missed on Mahomes. he went #10. Ahead of him was Miles Garrett, Christian McCaffrey, Mike Williams, Jamal Adams, Fournette. The Bears did choose Tribisky.
Pacheco was a much more proven commodity than Evans. I will never get that draft selection.
I would bet that no team has been as abysmal drafting oline in the last decade as us.
My Friend Isaac Curtis:
I appreciate your list and it is difficult to read when our kicker is tiers above all others.
KC in the last 3 drafts:
2022
4th Williams - played 17 games
7th Watson - played 16 games
7th Pacheco - played 17 games
7th Johnson - played 11 games
2021
6th OL Smith - starter for 2 seasons 72 PFF grade both seasons
2020
4the Snead - started 38 games in 3 years, very good player
Normally games played/started isnt the most impressive stat, but when the team is in the AFC title game every year and wins a SB...
We have had
Volson - 53 PFF score
MoneyMac - awesome
No other starters in the last 3 seasons. 2 out of 14 starters in last 3 years.
KC is miles ahead of us when it comes to drafting.
We are pretty solid on finding quality "2nd tier guys", our defensive coaching has become excellent, Burrow and Chase are likely more exceptional that we even think.
But my concern is moving forward with the new big contracts, we have to do better identifying talented players deeper in the draft.
We gotten starter production from 2 players out of 6 last draft.
We've gotten starter production from 2 players out 10 in 2 years from the draft before. I will add Ossai and Sample are coming on...
We've gotten production from our top 3 picks in 2020, ADG has potential, Adeniji obviously has video on Mike Brown doing something...
We need to identify that Trey Smith in the 6th, Pacheco in the 7th, Snead in the 4th.
Volson and Lawson are the only 2 starting 4th rounders we have had since Boling.
4th rounders:
Shelvin
Smith
Billings
Finley
Wren
Jordan
Walton
Malone
Glasgow
Westerman
Bodine
Porter
Charles
Shaw
Hardison
Outside of Lawson & Cordell, ADG is the superstar of the 4th round since 2011. We must do better.
RE: Pollack "Comfortable with all those guys" - casear2727 - 03-05-2023
(03-05-2023, 02:24 PM)Isaac Curtis: The Real #85 Wrote: Rounds 1-3, ZT era:
2022: 1: D. Hill, 2: CTB; 3: Carter.
2021: 1: Chase; 2: Carman; 3: Ossai
2020: 1: Burrow; 2: Higgins; 3: L. Wilson
2019: 1: J. Williams; 2: D. Sample; 3: Pratt
Rd1: 2 HRs in Burrow & Chase. A solid pick in Jonah. Too early to tell on Dax Hill. 3/3 with 1 Incomplete.
Rd2: One HR in Higgins. CTB looks solid (at worst). Carman looked like a whiff at guard, but at LT/RT could salvage something and does flash starter level talent. D. Sample was a big panic reach. 2/3 with 1 incomplete.
Rd 3: 2 HRs in Wilson & Pratt. Ossai gotcset back with the injury but looks solid (at worst). Carter was bad early but improved. 3/3 with 1 incomplete.
There are always misses, but in the 1st 3 rounds I would hope every team has solid starters. I just think that in order for us to get to and win SBs in the future we must identify the nonobvious talent...