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+--- Thread: Hall and Bengals Still Talking Return (/thread-6637.html)
RE: Hall and Bengals Still Talking Return - Nate (formerly eliminate08) - 06-10-2016
(06-10-2016, 04:13 PM)3wt Wrote: Dre played almost the whole season with a significantly injured shoulder. I'll be interested to see what he does this year.
Well that is atleast a very good excuse for his less than stellar play.
He didn't have a lot of TD's thrown on him as Fred alluded to but that does not mean that he did not get beat
significantly more than Adam and Leon. Dre also has decent speed and tracked down a lot of guys from behind.
Not really a bad thing on him except for him getting beat in the first place.
RE: Hall and Bengals Still Talking Return - bfine32 - 06-10-2016
(06-10-2016, 03:10 PM)fredtoast Wrote: You have not provided anything other than your opinion and a PFF rating. I have already showed that the PFF individual ranking is so flawed that a CB who played fewer snaps and messed up more often than Dre could still be ranked ahead of him.Whether you like it or not PFF is a source and one that is more vetted than Fredtoast. I have also shown how much he was targeted; you never answered why you think that is.
I have also addressed the claims about how his penalties prove he is bad and the claim that he can not tackle
So please remind me what "proof" you and others have posted. Because all I seen is opinions and a flawed PFF ranking.
And I promise to post the info from the Footballoutsiders almanac as soon as I get it.
The most stupid logic you have presented Is: Dre commits a lot of penalties, some good CBs in the NFL commit penalties; therefore, it is a good thing to commit a lot of penalties.
If that was your "proof" then go for it, As I said, it's an opinion; it's just one of us has posted sources and another has just said because we are a good team and good CBs commit penalties. Leap also posted some damaging stats, but I'll take those with a grain of salt; as no source was cited. You think Dre is a good CB and I think not so much. Hope you turn out to be right.
RE: Hall and Bengals Still Talking Return - bengalsturntup5532 - 06-10-2016
I hate this i could go off forever about this,But this is where bengals fans are just to loyal and the organization. He got beat like a drum all year last year,Especially in the final drive of the playoff game,it was his man that completed the first downs. We drafted jackson and got dennard,But yet bengals fans say sign leon.He would not be 5th or a safety and you Damn Well know it,hed play slot cause marvin said so.plus your 5th needs to play special teams,and that white safety will be on special teams,leon cant do that.hrs slow and done.dre kirk is a outside corner and better then leon at this point of his career.please do not bring him back.let the young guns make plays.
RE: Hall and Bengals Still Talking Return - Nate (formerly eliminate08) - 06-11-2016
(06-10-2016, 08:58 PM)bengalsturntup5532 Wrote: I hate this i could go off forever about this,But this is where bengals fans are just to loyal and the organization. He got beat like a drum all year last year,Especially in the final drive of the playoff game,it was his man that completed the first downs. We drafted jackson and got dennard,But yet bengals fans say sign leon.He would not be 5th or a safety and you Damn Well know it,hed play slot cause marvin said so.plus your 5th needs to play special teams,and that white safety will be on special teams,leon cant do that.hrs slow and done.dre kirk is a outside corner and better then leon at this point of his career.please do not bring him back.let the young guns make plays.
A lot of Bullshit in this incredibly bad written post.
RE: Hall and Bengals Still Talking Return - bengalsturntup5532 - 06-12-2016
(06-11-2016, 02:46 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: A lot of Bullshit in this incredibly bad written post.
Like what?? And Im sorry i didnt know we got graded by english teachers around here. But what exactly is bullshit to you?
RE: Hall and Bengals Still Talking Return - Nate (formerly eliminate08) - 06-12-2016
(06-12-2016, 06:52 AM)bengalsturntup5532 Wrote: Like what?? And Im sorry i didnt know we got graded by english teachers around here. But what exactly is bullshit to you?
Like Hall getting beat like a drum all last year...
That was Kirkpatrick my friend.
Like Dre being better than Hall at this point, not true from what we saw last year...
Hall would be great depth from what we saw of him last year if he does not fall off. The lack of respect in your post was insulting IMO.
Just break up your paragraphs a touch man so people can read them, it is not hard to do.
RE: Hall and Bengals Still Talking Return - TheLeonardLeap - 06-12-2016
(06-10-2016, 07:20 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Whether you like it or not PFF is a source and one that is more vetted than Fredtoast. I have also shown how much he was targeted; you never answered why you think that is.
The most stupid logic you have presented Is: Dre commits a lot of penalties, some good CBs in the NFL commit penalties; therefore, it is a good thing to commit a lot of penalties.
If that was your "proof" then go for it, As I said, it's an opinion; it's just one of us has posted sources and another has just said because we are a good team and good CBs commit penalties. Leap also posted some damaging stats, but I'll take those with a grain of salt; as no source was cited. You think Dre is a good CB and I think not so much. Hope you turn out to be right.
The source was PFF. It was scattered through like 2-3 old free posts they have made. I only used proper stats too from them, not random ranking stats and grade stats. His missed tackles were 16. So even if he was among league leaders in CB solo tackles, if you miss 16, you suck at tackling.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
As for Fred's penalties=you're a great CB.... I propose a theory myself.
2016 INT Leaders:
#2. Peyton Manning (2 SB Ws)
#3. Ben Roethlisberger (2 SB Ws)
#7 Eli Manning (2 SB Ws)
So CLEARLY the QBs with the most SB wins are among league leaders in INT. So that means INTs are a good thing and indicates how good you are... right? Right? This is how logic works, right guys?
Obviously all our CBs should commit more penalties, and our QB should throw more INT if they want to make it in this league.
RE: Hall and Bengals Still Talking Return - SHRacerX - 06-13-2016
I am all for signing Hall at a lower, veteran contract. His play really diminished through last year and he looked really slow, but then in reading about his offseason back surgery and how he played through a herniated disk makes me reconsider. He was taking epidural injections in order to be able to play in the end of the season. If the disk surgery was successful, he could be markedly improved.
I don't expect him to be an outside corner, but as a slot guy and a guy that has also played a little safety, I think he is a worthwhile asset.
I also really want to see him get a ring.
RE: Hall and Bengals Still Talking Return - SHRacerX - 06-13-2016
(06-08-2016, 09:17 AM)ochocincos Wrote: This move would be a logical one. It would allow Fejedelem to land on the PS if needed rather than force him to be the final safety on the roster, giving him time to develop.
The starting 10 DBs would then be:
Jones, Kirkpatrick, Dennard, Jackson, Hall, Lewis-Harris, Iloka, Williams, Smith, Shaw.
This is a good point, but I think the Bengals were counting on an immediate impact from Fej on special teams. We wouldn't see Hall doing that. Actually makes the argument to not sign him.
RE: Hall and Bengals Still Talking Return - SHRacerX - 06-13-2016
(06-09-2016, 09:53 AM)XenoMorph Wrote: Dre is also the guy busting his ass down the field to save TDs from other peoples bad coverage.
Halls stats were a benefit of him covering 3rd and 4th options most Qbs didn't get much of a chance to take a shot at do to the pass rush.
And don't forget dre played with an injury last year.
Hall's herniated disc occurred during the season and required epidural injections to get him through the end of the season. Whatever injury Dre was playing with last year, I doubt it was as severe as that.
RE: Hall and Bengals Still Talking Return - fredtoast - 06-13-2016
(06-10-2016, 07:20 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Whether you like it or not PFF is a source and one that is more vetted than Fredtoast.
The FACT is that in PFF rankings a CB who played less snaps and messed up more often could be ranked ahead of Dre.
I don't care how many people have been fooled by their rankings. They just are not valid.
RE: Hall and Bengals Still Talking Return - fredtoast - 06-13-2016
(06-12-2016, 07:45 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: The source was PFF. It was scattered through like 2-3 old free posts they have made. I only used proper stats too from them, not random ranking stats and grade stats. His missed tackles were 16. So even if he was among league leaders in CB solo tackles, if you miss 16, you suck at tackling.
Not true.
Post the entire list of CBs with missed tackles and I will do the math to figure out what their tackle efficiency was. It is possible that Dre is nowhere near the top of the list of worst tackling CBs.
Last year Zack Mettenberg only threw 7 ints while Matt Ryan and Ben Roethlisberger threw more than twice as many (16). So is Mettenberger twice as good as those two QBs?
RE: Hall and Bengals Still Talking Return - fredtoast - 06-13-2016
(06-10-2016, 06:56 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: He didn't have a lot of TD's thrown on him as Fred alluded to but that does not mean that he did not get beat
significantly more than Adam and Leon.
Yes it does. If he got beat a lot more then he would give up a lot more tds and long completions.
RE: Hall and Bengals Still Talking Return - fredtoast - 06-13-2016
(06-12-2016, 02:44 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Like Hall getting beat like a drum all last year...
That was Kirkpatrick my friend.
Like Dre being better than Hall at this point, not true from what we saw last year...
Dre did not get beaten more often that Hall last year.
Dre was better than Hall last year. That is why Dre played 98% of the snaps and Hall only played 69%.
RE: Hall and Bengals Still Talking Return - fredtoast - 06-13-2016
(06-10-2016, 07:20 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I have also shown how much he was targeted; you never answered why you think that is.
He was targeted the most because he was the weakest link in our secondary. But that does not mean he was a bad player when compared to the rest of the league.
And you have never answered why other teams could not just move down the field easily by picking on Dre. If he was that bad and targeted that much then opposing QBs should have put up big numbers.
RE: Hall and Bengals Still Talking Return - Essex Johnson - 06-13-2016
(06-13-2016, 09:47 AM)fredtoast Wrote: He was targeted the most because he was the weakest link in our secondary. But that does not mean he was a bad player when compared to the rest of the league.
And you have never answered why other teams could not just move down the field easily by picking on Dre. If he was that bad and targeted that much then opposing QBs should have put up big numbers.
I agree he was the weakest link in our secondary.. but everyone has a weakest link in a secondary and most teams will attack that weak link. So really lets compare Dre to those players on other teams that are considered the weakest link and I would say his play last year was superior to those players. Dre is not our best corner but he is by far not the worst Cb in the leagues. The Steelers would have loved to have Dre on their team last year.. enough said
RE: Hall and Bengals Still Talking Return - fredtoast - 06-13-2016
(06-12-2016, 07:45 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: As for Fred's penalties=you're a great CB.... I propose a theory myself.
2016 INT Leaders:
#2. Peyton Manning (2 SB Ws)
#3. Ben Roethlisberger (2 SB Ws)
#7 Eli Manning (2 SB Ws)
So CLEARLY the QBs with the most SB wins are among league leaders in INT. So that means INTs are a good thing and indicates how good you are... right? Right? This is how logic works, right guys?
Obviously all our CBs should commit more penalties, and our QB should throw more INT if they want to make it in this league.
Ben and Eli did not win Super Bowls this year. Neither of them ended up in the top ten in passer rating.
If five of the top 8 QBs in interceptions were either Pro Bowl or All Pro then you might have a point, but as it is you have nothing.
RE: Hall and Bengals Still Talking Return - bfine32 - 06-13-2016
(06-13-2016, 09:28 AM)fredtoast Wrote: The FACT is that in PFF rankings a CB who played less snaps and messed up more often could be ranked ahead of Dre.
I don't care how many people have been fooled by their rankings. They just are not valid.
PFF works with Pro Coach Network to obtain their grades. They have about 30 current and former coaches evaluating. Hell Ken Anderson is a member. If you don't want to take thier stats and analysis that's on you, but folks should not accept them as "not Valid" because Fredtoast says so.
RE: Hall and Bengals Still Talking Return - bfine32 - 06-13-2016
(06-13-2016, 09:47 AM)fredtoast Wrote: And you have never answered why other teams could not just move down the field easily by picking on Dre. If he was that bad and targeted that much then opposing QBs should have put up big numbers.
It has been answered and that answer is because there were others there to clean up his mess. I provided the example of a play where Dunlap cleaned up and got the Fumble.
He was targeted plenty; it's just the rest of our D was that good (remember, you used it as proof to show Dre played good last year).
RE: Hall and Bengals Still Talking Return - Nate (formerly eliminate08) - 06-13-2016
(06-13-2016, 09:40 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Yes it does. If he got beat a lot more then he would give up a lot more tds and long completions.
Whatever, he got beat more than Adam and Leon, We just disagree.
Sounds like Kirkpatrick is a coach or something the way you defend him Fred. I am not a Kirkpatrick hater
either, i just tell it like i see it. When there is a weak link on the team i point it out. We have a very good
Secondary and Kirkpatrick was the weak link last year no matter how you try to spin it.
(06-13-2016, 09:44 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Dre did not get beaten more often that Hall last year.
Dre was better than Hall last year. That is why Dre played 98% of the snaps and Hall only played 69%.
Dre played that amount of snaps cause the coaches were trying to finally get the guy to be our starter.
He was a first round pick after all and we needed to integrate him into the starting lineup eventually.
Doesn't mean Dre was better than Hall last year. Hall has been a great CB for us, Dre has not period.