(04-23-2023, 06:29 PM)Isaac Curtis: The Real #85 Wrote:
I get that Collins & Williams both had the worst years of their careers last year. And that is concerning. But I think injuries played a part for both. Jonah should be goid to go and Collins still could be. Let's look objectively at what we have and what the FO has done at OL..

Carman had some maturity issues the first year and did not transition to guard well. He played well vs KC and more than passably vs Buffalo & Baltimore back at tackle. And flashed a mean streak. At worst, he is a competent backup LT. At best, he continues to improve and challenges/takes over RT. Anyway, he is going nowhere. Two spots taken. 

 Before Brown fell in our laps, all signs were the FO was good with starting him at LT next year. We did not pursue high level OTs in FA, 

I am more optimistic than most on Collins' recovery.



Anywho, without a Jonah trade, 1 spot is open. The #4 OT spot.  

(04-23-2023, 08:56 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: To bolded:

Collins and Williams both had terrible seasons, both for injury reasons.  When your plan to protect your franchise QB has eroded just that simply, it's time to cut and run on both of those guys.

Carman still has a LOT of proving to do, before he can be considered reliable for a full season.  Sorry, a couple of late season appearances just doesn't do it for me.

You say "before Brown fell in our laps", but how do you not know that the FO was looking to secure the position from the get-go?  It appears to me that they made their move, struck fast, struck hard..

I also disagree about the #4 OT spot being the only one up for grabs.  I see the RT/Swing Tackle being between Carman and Ford.  I really feel like Williams is not going to be on the opening day roster.  Sorry if that hurts your feelings or disrupts your vision of how the team will play out, but that's my seasoned opinion.  I see the Bengals drafting a rookie to be the RT of the future.  He may not be a day 1 starter, he might be developmental all season if Carman or Ford step up, we will have to see.

(04-23-2023, 06:29 PM)Isaac Curtis: The Real #85 Wrote: I don't get why this is hard to grasp. We only carry 4 OTs. We have 3 OTs on the roster with a LOT of starting experience in the NFL, and multiple good years (Brown, Williams, and Collins). Plus Carman, who flashed pretty well in the POs at his natural position. Plus, 2 more guys with good amounts NFL experience (Fird & Adeniji). That is 6 plus Smith. 

I get that Collins & Williams both had the worst years of their careers last year. And that is concerning. But I think injuries played a part for both. Jonah should be goid to go and Collins still could be. Let's look objectively at what we have and what the FO has done at OL..

 Brown is a 4 time Pro-Bowler who has not allowed a sack in 4 of the 5 PO runs he's been a part of. He us thexstarting LT. Period. One spot taken. 

Carman had some maturity issues the first year and did not transition to guard well. He played well vs KC and more than passably vs Buffalo & Baltimore back at tackle. And flashed a mean streak. At worst, he is a competent backup LT. At best, he continues to improve and challenges/takes over RT. Anyway, he is going nowhere. Two spots taken. 

Williams had a bad year last year playing on one leg after week 5, but 2021 & 2020 were league average at LT. Maybe even a smidge higher. 2021 surely. Yes, he was bad prior to week 5. So was Burrow. He was still good enough at LT for us to win 8 in a row, including vs KC, even on one leg. We picked up his 5th year option. Before Brown fell in our laps, all signs were the FO was good with starting him at LT next year. We did not pursue high level OTs in FA, even after Bates & Bell & Hurst bolted. After, we were good with him starting at RT. We gain nothing by cutting him, cap wise. But the bottom line is, all evidence points to the fact that the FO was comfortable with him being the starter prior to the trade request/Brown signing. Absent the request, 3 OT spots would be locked in. Absent an actual trade, 3 are. He is not gonna sit out. He'd lose $12.6 mil & still be under team control AND he'd be blackballed (I think those last two are true). 

That leaves one spot. Collins had had a nice career in Dallas albeit with some injury concerns. We were rightly excited to get him. He underperformed expectations. The offense (line AND Burrow) were terrible early. Still, he was our best run blocker AND we were good enough to be rolling into the POs with Collins at RT. Our line problems last year were not that the starters sucked, it was that 3 of them got hurt & 2 backups underperformed vs KC/Balt. 

I am more optimistic than most on Collins' recovery. When he initially got hurt, he thought he might be able to play next week. The scans revealed more damage. But he says the recovery is on schedule, less restrictive than the hip, and he is still shooting for opening day. If Collins is healthy, he is miles better than Ford, Adeniji, or Smith. He'd have an iron grip on the last OT spot. But he isn't. 

Even assuming he starts on IR/PUP, I would not cut him. His contract is structured (so I hear) so that if he is not on the 53, the cap hit is lower. And he is signed for two more years. He played guard early on. We need depth there. I think the chances he misses the entire year are low. How he looks is an open question we cannot answer yet. Until I get a definite NO I am not cutting him. And even if I get a no on this year, the cost is fairly low & he is quality RT (and maybe even G) depth in 2024. I like the idea of a fresh Collins bolstering us late in the year. Even if it is just jumbo sets, I think he can help situationally. 

Anywho, without a Jonah trade, 1 spot is open. The #4 OT spot. We have 3 candidates. We brought Ford in and specifically told him he could compete at RT. He has some exp at guard and coukd servexas OT4/OG4 until Collins is back or we draft more IOL help. He has a zero dead cap. Adeniji was is still here, and was decent save for the Balt/KC games. He has minimal dead cap. Smith is a total project who has shown nothing. $600k dead cap. Not great options. But as a possibly temporary #4 OT, I can live with it. 2 are likely gone unless Ford is #4 OG as well. 

Yes, we can get off all 3 pretry cheaply. But until Jonah gets traded, a draft pick is competing for the #4 OT spot. And #5 if Collins gets back. Likely not playing. Upgrading the #4 OT spot (if Collins is not ready) is not a huge flasing light of 8mmediate need. We have 4 candidates. The likelihood a rookie is better than the top 3 is slim. Once you get past Wright, real slim. Maybe D. Jones or Bergeron. Bergeron would be switching sides.  

We have other spots with more immediate needs. And/or worse depth.  I'd argue everything save LB, PK, and LS. 

TE1 needs filling and Sample/Asiasi suck worse than Carman/Collins/Ford. 

RB2 is open & Evans is iffy at RB4. 

QB2 is open. 

CB. Chido is also coming off injury, in his last year, and Jones/George/Davis ain't exactly proven CB depth.

At DL, Reader is in his last year and there is no replacement on roster.  BJ Hill makes $10 mil a year, and we don't get a ton of pass rush from him or DJ, nor Carter/Tupou/Tufele. We usually carry 5 DEs, and while Trey and Sam are good, and I like Ossai's growth and Sample's run D, more pass rusg is needed. If Gunter/Basham turned into Murphy, I'd do backflips.

Speaking of, Boyd is in his last year, and Irwin/Taylor/Morgan are like March of the Penguins when it comes to getting separation. Some non-Chase speed could do wonders. A big WR and a slot are needed, in my view. At least upgrade Morgan. 

IOL is more of a need. I like Carnan/Collins (by PO time) a lot more as depth than Schaping + nobody (or Ford/Adeniji) at guard or Hill at C. 

I like our S room more than most, but Hill has barely played, Anderson not at all, and Scott has started for 1 year. Thomas can mentor them for a year, but if he has to play a lot, we are in trouble. 

 Reserve DL play all the time, as does RB2, TE2, and CB4 in nickel. 

I know many disagree, but I just think unless it is a plug and play kind of guy (Wright), and Jonah stays, OT#4 is not a huge priority. Even when Jonah leaves next year, we still have Brown + Carman + Collins. 

Don't get me wrong, I see the long term issue at RT. If Wright falls in our lap at #28 I jump for joy & I trade Jonah for an extra Day 2 pick. And see what that $12.6 can do this year (though most good FAs are gone). If not, I am strongly inclined to keep him, land a  compensatory 3rd next year, and use the picks this year on guys who are likely to play more at TE, CB, DE, DT, and RB. Or upgrade the depth more at WR, or IOL. 

The draft class next year is likely gonna be better at OL and WR, we'll have a better shot then. And that's assuming Carman does not blossom. We don't need the $$$ at present.

Sorry for the treatise on the subject. It is the last I will say on it. Absent a Jonah trade, we are talking OT4 at best, and we have more urgent needs.

(04-24-2023, 02:14 PM)Joelist Wrote: Well Collins was at Paycor today and HE believes he is going to be ready for Opening Day. He also looks a little less heavy - maybe part of the rehabbing?

(04-24-2023, 03:04 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Highly doubt he is ready to go opening day, but this is encouraging for sure on the LC front.

(04-24-2023, 03:23 PM)BenZoo2 Wrote: Agreed.  Even if he’s ready by week 4 I feel better about ford or Carmen holding down the fort until then.  I think it’s even more likely now an ot isn’t drafted until the later rounds if at all.  

Though I still wouldn’t mind a developmental pick later.  Seen enough of Adeniji and unfortunately smith hasn’t seemed to have gotten it


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(04-23-2023, 08:39 PM)casear2727 Wrote: Because we need a long term solution to RT.  If Wright isnt available it likely wont be in this draft.  If he is there at 28 they could probably care less about who he replaces, outside of OBjr & Jonah.

(04-24-2023, 04:16 PM)Isaac Curtis: The Real #85 Wrote: No one is arguing against taking Wright at #28. I've said that, repeatedly. If he is there, which is not bloody likely, do it. 

Saying we don't have a long term solution at RT is almost meaningless. We have potential long term issues everywhere except QB, WR1, and LT. 
We also have long term potential issues at CB1, NT, WR2, WR3, RB1, and LB1. And immediate needs at TE1 & RB2 and Punter. Not to mention QB2, WR4-6, TE3, OG4. I put OT4 firmly in the third tier. Which is what we are talking about. 

We have 4 decent tackles signed thru this year + 3 others. We have 3 signed thru NEXT year (Brown, Collins, and Carman). Unless we land a plug & play starter (Skoronski, Johnson, B. Jones, Wright), we likely pass on OT. Outside of D. Jones, Bergeron (switching sides), or Mauch (likely better at guard) I woukd not even consider taking another OT before Day 3. And none of those guys, save maybe Jones, will help this year. 

Finally, we have a better chance at getting a better player at RT next year, or the year after, when the OT class is deeper. 

 With Jonah here, we are set at OT spots 1-3. 

1) Brown & Carman are going nowhere. Are you at least with me so far? 

2) We cannot cut Jonah (that makes no sense). He won't sit out. It does not make sense to trade him & weaken the position at present, especially with Collins uncertain, because then Ford/Adeniji/Smith is OT3. We don't want that. Alternatively, if we land a stud OT in Rd1, that changes things. But that is unlikely. 

Hell, even IF we did land Wright, I wouldn't trade Jonah unless we could get a third/early 4th for him. We should get a Comp. 3rd next year if he leaves. Or unless we can put that $12.6 to good use THIS year. Or until Collins is back. 

3) The news on Collins in encouraging. I think the idea that he misses the whole year is almost as far fetched as Higgins getting traded. Further, I think he'll be better than last year. The back will be better. It will make a difference. 

Again, if a blue-chipper falls into our lap, we'd likely take him (Wright). But same thing if it is Robinson, Smith-Njigba, Flowers, Mayer, Kincaid, Wright, Kancey, Van Ness, Murphy, N. Smith, Banks, or Forbes. That isn't tackle specific. 

And once we are beyond the top 4, I don't think an OT pick helps us THIS year. I want the #28 pick to help us this year. And I think there are a lot of other spots we can get immediate help in. D. Jones might be the only exception. And I'd consider him at #28 if all the others are gone. But I'd want to trade down at that point. 

(04-24-2023, 05:02 PM)casear2727 Wrote: 3) "The news on Collins in encouraging" "No shit, once more. Only one meathead has said he is done.  

(04-24-2023, 08:54 AM)kevin Wrote: Bengals owners have never liked players demanding a trade. They worked a trade out for Carson Palmer, but refused to be brow beaten by Chad Johnson demanding a trade years earlier. We have learned that if these guys don't practice or play, they don't get paid. So if Jonah wants to not get paid in 2023, that's up to him. I don't think he will be that stupid. It's better to get paid to play right tackle than not to get paid at all.

I can see Bengals owners point. Bengals have to honor a players contract if he has a good or bad season. So it's only fair that players honor their end of the contract.

So it really doesn't matter if Jonah Williams is unhappy because Bengals added free agent O line depth that they needed. I'm starting to see it Bengals owners way over the years. Either this 1st Round Draft pick plays for Bengals, or he doesn't get paid in 2023. If he thinks he is unhappy now, let's see how unhappy he is if he misses an entire years pay, and has to give up some nice things he probably owes money on.

Also there was good trade value for Carson Palmer. Bengals were not going to let Carson out of his contract, but Raiders offered top draft picks. I don't see Jonah Williams getting anything close to what Bengals got in Carson trade. So, refuse to trade him, and if he sits out, he doesn't get paid. I think Williams losing out on million dollar paychecks is going to hurt him and his family more than it hurts The Bengals. This won't be like when he was injured and got paid anyway. If he doesn't show up for work, he doesn't get paid.

I've seen NFL players sit out, lately the Steelers WR and the Steelers RB. I think it's a bone headed move on the players part. They lose out on millions of dollars and the team owner gets to keep his money in the bank. To me it's the most stupid move these players could make. I'll add that both those Steelers players who sat out were never Pro Bowl level after that. They lost out on big money in their best years of their careers, not very smart.

(04-24-2023, 09:48 PM)bengals1969 Wrote: Jonah was suddenly replaced so he’s expendable and that is a difference with other cases in the past.  I think it was Pollack who said last month he didn’t think Jonah would welcome a shift and it would be hard for him to make it. Jonah’s tee’d up for a trade this week.  Maybe the trade results in an extra pick used for a RT draft pick.

(04-25-2023, 04:32 PM)kevin Wrote: Oh Poor Jonah.  Boo Who

Look, when Jonah was drafted and signed a contract, I'm sure the contract doesn't say Only At Left Tackle.  He was signed to be an Offensive Lineman. 

I'll add the Bengals had to pay Jonah when he was injured as if he was playing, and Jonah got paid a lot while never taking the field in a game.  

So I think Jonah owes the Bengals.  He signed a contract and also got paid while IL injured many games. I'm sure his contract does not say Left Tackle Only. I think Jonah owes the Bengals and should live up to his contract, because the Bengals have when he was injured.  This means he plays where they need him to play, and if RT, so be it. 

However if Jonah thinks he is too good to play RT, which is a joke because Jonah is no Hall Of Fame bound player..  If Jonah thinks he is too good to play RT and sits out and refuses to play if not traded, then let him sit out.  He won't get paid if he sits out.  He will lose out on millions of dollars which will hurt him and his family.  Nobody is so rich they can lose that kind of money. IF he doesn't want to get paid in 2023, that's his choice.  He can't play for anybody else, he signed a contract with The Bengals. 

I side with Ownership on this one.  I'm tired of these spoiled players wanting owners to live up to their end of the contract, but players don't think they have to live up to their end of the contract.  So if he ends up not playing for anybody in 2023 and loses out on millions, I say fine Jonah.  Leave and sit out and don't let the door hit you in your moon pie.  Or you could honor your contract and protect Joe Burrow from Right Tackle and be there to move to Left Tackle if an injury to Brown.  Or again, sit out and not get paid at all.  

I'm all for Ownership saying NO TRADE, and telling Jonah his contract doesn't say Left Tackle.  Play for Bengals or don't play at all and lose millions of dollars, Mister Williams. 

(04-25-2023, 04:40 PM)XenoMorph Wrote: in this league where players are cut to save cash the Organization signed and agreed to...   Players got to look out for themselves.  Not every player plays well on both sides if He thinks its best for him to find a new team..  More power to him and hope we find a trade partner during the draft.